Load of rubbish.

…Sounds a bit ignorant to me.

If you make such statements, you must also argue reasonably

hasan.ay386 wrote:

Nkam wrote:

I would love to learn more about all of this.

Maybe this helps: http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/FindingCG.html
Very Interesting Article!

Wow - Just skimmed it - but very enlightening read!

Load of rubbish.

Nkam wrote:

I would love to learn more about all of this.

Maybe this helps: http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/FindingCG.html
Very Interesting Article!

Wow - Just skimmed it - but very enlightening read!

I would love to learn more about all of this.

Maybe this helps: http://www.nutshellhifi.com/library/FindingCG.html
Very Interesting Article!

The unit gets pretty darn hot.

It’s super easy to me to tell the RME apart from my Marantz and other DACs
In fact it takes me only seconds or minute to see if I like something and pinpoint it.
a musician with 40+ years of playing

Yes the Marantz (HD-DAC1) has a discreet analog output section so that is very different right there.

I would love to be able to build a DAC and monitor the THD level in the output stage to see what effect it has on the overall sound.

Measurements of THD (THD+N) [Total Harmonic Distortion + noise] are only static measurements and can therefore never (!) explain the sound of amplifier circuits if certain listener-individual values are undercut - it is similar with IMD (Intermodulation Distortion).

In the audio field we unfortunately have this standard situation: at the request of marketing people as well as the "decades of trained needs of the majority of buyers".

Static measurements of THD or THD+N (plus noise):
- e.g. at 1 kHz (one single measurement, one frequency).
- e.g. in a range from 20 Hz to 20 kHz (a number of single measurements)

Very simple dynamic measurements of IMD
- Here only the distortions of one frequency pair (i.e. only 2 frequencies) are measured.

Test the audibility of THD / IMD yourself:

Take audio signals and adjust the volume for your headphones. Note the volume (in dB !) and then reduce the volume on the Marantz HD DAC1 / RME ADI-2 PRO:

-dB -> THD / IMD [%}
-50 -> 0,316
-51 -> 0,282
-52 -> 0,251
-53 -> 0,224
-54 -> 0,200
-55 -> 0,178
-56 -> 0,158
-57 -> 0,141
-58 -> 0,126
-59 -> 0,112
-60 -> 0,100
-61 -> 0,089
-62 -> 0,079
-63 -> 0,071
-64 -> 0,063
-65 -> 0,056
-66 -> 0,050
-67 -> 0,045
-68 -> 0,040
-69 -> 0,035
-70 -> 0,032
...

Here you can read what @MC (engineer and owner of companies like RME) writes about THD:
"Very high values (10.0k) cause around -60 dB distortion (0.1%). It is therefore also possible to use K2 and K3 separately and intentionally as an effect. This can be quite instructive - when one notices that no difference between 0.1% and 0.0001% distortion is audible."
User’s Guide ADI-2 DAC v3.1, page 28

The more complex the music is (organ / orchestra / ...), the more dynamic distortions have an effect: Instruments, vocals are covered by a fog / curtain.

To evaluate audio amplifiers we need other standard measurements:
- DIM (Dynamic Intermodulation distortion) in %.
- TIM (Transient Intermodulation) in %.
- Multitone measurements in %
...
- For digital signal sources (file): Digitise analogue output signals, save as a file and compare with the original.

Nkam wrote:

I have a Benchmark LA4 preamp into a Benchmark AHB2 amp out to two proac DT8 with external crossovers I built. 
The Marantz HD DAC1 and Beyerdynamic DT1990pro headphones.

I set the RME in DAC mode and set the output to +24db since the benchmark DAC3 is +24db and the rest of my setup is benchmark.

The RME for some reason separates the instruments to the point where I can’t hear a central harmony so much. 
But the Marantz keeps separation while also hearing that central harmony of all the instruments more. 
(Maybe that’s what makes it) sound a bit flat as well to me.

It’s super easy to me to tell the RME apart from my Marantz and other DACs
In fact it takes me only seconds or minute to see if I like something and pinpoint it.

a musician with 40+ years of playing

Your listening test information about "RME ADI-2 PRO" vs Marantz HD-DAC1 is very interesting. After my recherche on the Marantz HD-DAC1 I now also understand the background of your technical questions (#1, ...).

The Marantz HD-DAC1 (DAC chip CS4398) has analogue output amplifiers (HDAM / HDAM SA2) for headphones and audio out: HDAM (Hyper Dynamic Amplifier Modules) are discrete circuits (requiring partially selected transistors) as an alternative to operational amplifiers.
https://www.marantz.com.tw/de-de/shop/u … ers/hddac1

https://www.diyaudio.com/community/thre … ule.92395/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/thre … st-5148718
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/thre … st-4827512
...
https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/marantz-hd-dac1 <- also contains measurements

I can understand that you are disappointed with the listening results of the RME ADI-2 PRO. From a technical point of view, we unfortunately lack comparative measurements of the dynamic intermodulation (DIM), etc.

Listening test / measurements:
If someone has their device-related emotions under control, they don't need a blind test to find the best listening result! I use short audio-sequences that interest me for comparison, your audio sequences may be longer. The output levels of the amplifiers are the same or differ by a maximum of < 0.5 dB (even less when testing with headphones).

For measuring, you could buy or borrow a simple digital multimeter and make comparative measurements, e.g. with ~ 440 Hz. Because you only make comparative measurements at short time intervals and under the same temperature conditions, you have very accurate measurements. Left and right channels must be measured. Conversion of values to dB:
=20*(LOG(value or name of cell;10))

Some questions:

DAC filter: According to your information above you might not be able to hear frequencies e.g. > 15 kHz. Do you hear differences between the DAC filters and can you describe them?

You bought an RME ADI-2 Pro FS R?

Your audio sources (SPDIF, USB, ... with sample rate) for testing are?

If USB: settings in the driver comparable?

Yeah I have a digital multimeter. 
And I always volume match. 

Yes the Marantz has a discreet analog output section so that is very different right there. 
It also has a bit more THD at 0.001%

I have no idea why this happens with some DACs.

Nkam wrote:

vinark wrote:

With this phenomena you are clearly in the psychoacoustic regions, that is a good thing because the experience of music is in our heads, but a bad thing cause it is very influenceable. It would be very interesting, if you did not know what dac your are listening to if the results would be the same. and repeatable.

I’ve done blind tests.  And passed them quite easily.

Again I’m not bragging. Please don’t take it that way.
But do you know what playing musical instruments for 40+ years does to your hearing? 
The way a musician can identify differences is much different than someone not trained in music. 
Studio engineers have some of that as well
But as you become intimate with you instrument you get at least great relative pitch and your hearing is much more focused than many. 

It’s super easy to me to tell the RME apart from my Marantz and other DACs
In fact it takes me only seconds or minute to see if I like something and pinpoint it.
I studied and played music for a long time.  It’s hard work. Super hard work.

And it does make your hearing better.

Musician and music producer for over 40 years and I did not think you are bragging or anything. Just curious what could cause this effect in this case. If it is specific to the Marantz, they should create an audi plugin of it. Having simple control over separatation vs blending would be very interesting.

I don’t know what causes it.   That’s why I was just assuming THD. 
And from that technical aspect I’m totally a novice .
But I have heard DACs with higher THD around 0.01% and they tend to be too much of a single blob mess. 
Again just a theory and assumption.
I would love to be able to build a DAC and monitor the THD level in the output stage to see what effect it has on the overall sound.

Maybe that’s why some people love vinyl ?

I have a Benchmark LA4 preamp into a Benchmark AHB2 amp out to two proac DT8 with external crossovers I built. 
The Marantz HD DAC1 and Beyerdynamic DT1990pro headphones.

I set the RME in DAC mode and set the output to +24db since the benchmark DAC3 is +24db and the rest of my setup is benchmark.

The RME for some reason separates the instruments to the point where I can’t hear a central harmony so much. 
But the Marantz keeps separation while also hearing that central harmony of all the instruments more. 
(Maybe that’s what makes it) sound a bit flat as well to me.

It’s super easy to me to tell the RME apart from my Marantz and other DACs
In fact it takes me only seconds or minute to see if I like something and pinpoint it.

a musician with 40+ years of playing

Your listening test information about "RME ADI-2 PRO" vs Marantz HD-DAC1 is very interesting. After my recherche on the Marantz HD-DAC1 I now also understand the background of your technical questions (#1, ...).

The Marantz HD-DAC1 (DAC chip CS4398) has analogue output amplifiers (HDAM / HDAM SA2) for headphones and audio out: HDAM (Hyper Dynamic Amplifier Modules) are discrete circuits (requiring partially selected transistors) as an alternative to operational amplifiers.
https://www.marantz.com.tw/de-de/shop/u … ers/hddac1

https://www.diyaudio.com/community/thre … ule.92395/
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/thre … st-5148718
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/thre … st-4827512
...
https://www.whathifi.com/reviews/marantz-hd-dac1 <- also contains measurements

I can understand that you are disappointed with the listening results of the RME ADI-2 PRO. From a technical point of view, we unfortunately lack comparative measurements of the dynamic intermodulation (DIM), etc.

Listening test (don't need a blind test) / measurements:
If someone has their device-related emotions under control, they don't need a blind test to find the best listening result! I use short audio-sequences that interest me for comparison, your audio sequences may be longer. The output levels of the amplifiers are the same or differ by a maximum of < 0.5 dB (even less when testing with headphones).

For measuring, you could buy or borrow a simple digital multimeter and make comparative measurements, e.g. with ~ 440 Hz. Because you only make comparative measurements at short time intervals and under the same temperature conditions, you have very accurate measurements. Left and right channels must be measured. Conversion of values to dB:
=20*(LOG(value or name of cell;10))

Some questions:

DAC filter: According to your information above you might not be able to hear frequencies e.g. > 15 kHz. Do you hear differences between the DAC filters and can you describe them?

You bought an RME ADI-2 Pro FS R?

Your audio sources (SPDIF, USB, ... with sample rate) for testing are?

If USB: settings in the driver comparable?

vinark wrote:

Nkam wrote:

True.   Even ambience/temp of mic, drivers etc will make a difference.

I ran the tests around 4 times to make sure.
But in the end you are right.

Thanks for not attacking me.   
I’m not trying to ‘ bash’ anything here. 
Just wanted some info on the RME. 

As a musician of 40 years this is kinda what I hear from it that I don’t like. 

I’ll try and explain this without too much music theory. 

If you have a jazz trio.  Or any trio playing.   
They are spaced a certain distance from each other according to venue and if they are acoustic , rely on a PA etc.
if they have no PA they can’t get too far from each other. 
I’ll get to what I’m trying to say here from that.

Let’s say it’s a guitar , vocal and upright bass. 
The guitar might be playing the 3rd , the bass the fundamental and the vocal will sing around the 5th sometimes or play in harmony with the guitar and bass. 
These notes create what is called harmony. 
The notes actually also interact with each other ( which is why everyone needs to be in tune with each other) and they also create a whole sound emanating from all instruments , kind of binding them together. 

So when people say “ oh this DAC or piece of gear spaces the instruments properly apart from each other “ sometimes that is good up to a point. 

Recently I went to see Beethoven’s 3rd at a concert hall.   
In the most common classical fashion the violins were on the left , cellos one the right with the bass.   They off course make up the most players.
One Oboe in the back middle , one bassoon, one flute , etc. 

Yes you could hear the violins clearly come from the left and differentiate them from the cellos.  But they also created a large soundscape all across when they were in harmony.   

The RME for some reason separates the instruments to the point where I can’t hear a central harmony so much. 

I’ve also heard DACs which are just a mush of everything together.

But the Marantz keeps separation while also hearing that central harmony of all the instruments more. 

Maybe too low of THD isn’t a good thing after all. 
I have no idea.
Maybe it should be kept around 0.001% to have that more binding effect of everything.
Maybe that’s what people like about vinyl?

Don’t know.
Just throwing things out there and what I didn’t like about the RME.

Maybe that’s what makes it sound a bit flat as well to me. 
Who knows. 

Peace and thank you for the civilized conversation.

With this phenomena you are clearly in the psychoacoustic regions, that is a good thing because the experience of music is in our heads, but a bad thing cause it is very influenceable. It would be very interesting, if you did not know what dac your are listening to if the results would be the same. and repeatable.

I’ve done blind tests.  And passed them quite easily.

Again I’m not bragging. Please don’t take it that way.
But do you know what playing musical instruments for 40+ years does to your hearing? 
The way a musician can identify differences is much different than someone not trained in music. 
Studio engineers have some of that as well
But as you become intimate with you instrument you get at least great relative pitch and your hearing is much more focused than many. 

It’s super easy to me to tell the RME apart from my Marantz and other DACs
In fact it takes me only seconds or minute to see if I like something and pinpoint it.
I studied and played music for a long time.  It’s hard work. Super hard work.

And it does make your hearing better.

Musician and music producer for over 40 years and I did not think you are bragging or anything. Just curious what could cause this effect in this case. If it is specific to the Marantz, they should create an audi plugin of it. Having simple control over separatation vs blending would be very interesting.

I can see what you’re after.

Harmonic Distortions in the sub-‰-range, in my experience, have no audible effect on the result.
To hear them they need to be above 1% at least.

The parameter that varies this separation vs. “glue” (as some audio engineers call it) would be the choice of the DA-Filter.
It’s the single one factor DAC-designers do use for decades to create a certain sound without completely leaving the neutral territory.

I’d be curious which one comes closest to your ideal on ADI-2.
Remember it has most effect for music playing at 44.1 kHz sample rate.

One has to admit, that 99% of this separation<>glue is created in the studio / recording process.
During production I can go into one direction or the other, always based on what the musicians deliver.

That’s the reason why no two recordings of classical music pieces sound the same.

It’s a complex synergy, even interaction, from what the director heads for, the musicians perform, the hall sound, microphone placement and selection, which takes are created in recording and used during editing, and finally how the microphones are mixed (which by itself is a complex process).

To me it’s always a bit funny if I see how much I can change during the recording process and what minimal, subtle differences are discussed for the equipment reproducing these.

As an audio engineer it’s more like the question:

How will it sound on iPhone vs big speaker, in a car, headphones, on a small radio etc., that influences decisions done.
Just lately I had a production where the director used Bose headphones, so I had to make the recording sound great on those.
And- it’s alway the musical performance that’s center of all efforts.
If the performance is great it will work everywhere.

Yeah I don’t know what produces that result. 
No idea.   I have my theory on THD.   
But I don’t have experience as let’s say someone who makes DACs and has messed around with those variables. 

It was just a theory.   

I would love to learn more about all of this.
Would be great to have a DAC maker explain all this and what changes qualitatively when they change parameters in their DACS. 
That’s the only way to really know

I also use HQplayer a lot.   And those filters are amazing. 
But it still doesn’t make the change I’m looking for.

Thanks once again , appreciate the great convo

Nkam wrote:

KaiS wrote:

You like the Marantz’ sound better - I’m perfectly fine with that.

Just a sidemark:
RT60 is nothing that electronics have any influence on, it’s a relatively course acoustics / room reverb measurement.

No electronic device has a “post ringing”, creates reverb.
If you find differences in measurements of it it’s just that RT60 is not very repeatable, e.g. room and mic noise changes the result for each run.

Acoustic measurements in general have no better repeatability than +/- 0.5 dB IF YOU DON’T CHANGE THE MIC POSITION.
If you re-do the setup the repeatability is much lower.

Electronics are to be measured in the electric domain, not through speakers in a room.

True.   Even ambience/temp of mic, drivers etc will make a difference.

I ran the tests around 4 times to make sure.
But in the end you are right.

Thanks for not attacking me.   
I’m not trying to ‘ bash’ anything here. 
Just wanted some info on the RME. 

As a musician of 40 years this is kinda what I hear from it that I don’t like. 

I’ll try and explain this without too much music theory. 

If you have a jazz trio.  Or any trio playing.   
They are spaced a certain distance from each other according to venue and if they are acoustic , rely on a PA etc.
if they have no PA they can’t get too far from each other. 
I’ll get to what I’m trying to say here from that.

Let’s say it’s a guitar , vocal and upright bass. 
The guitar might be playing the 3rd , the bass the fundamental and the vocal will sing around the 5th sometimes or play in harmony with the guitar and bass. 
These notes create what is called harmony. 
The notes actually also interact with each other ( which is why everyone needs to be in tune with each other) and they also create a whole sound emanating from all instruments , kind of binding them together. 

So when people say “ oh this DAC or piece of gear spaces the instruments properly apart from each other “ sometimes that is good up to a point. 

Recently I went to see Beethoven’s 3rd at a concert hall.   
In the most common classical fashion the violins were on the left , cellos one the right with the bass.   They off course make up the most players.
One Oboe in the back middle , one bassoon, one flute , etc. 

Yes you could hear the violins clearly come from the left and differentiate them from the cellos.  But they also created a large soundscape all across when they were in harmony.   

The RME for some reason separates the instruments to the point where I can’t hear a central harmony so much. 

I’ve also heard DACs which are just a mush of everything together.

But the Marantz keeps separation while also hearing that central harmony of all the instruments more. 

Maybe too low of THD isn’t a good thing after all. 
I have no idea.
Maybe it should be kept around 0.001% to have that more binding effect of everything.
Maybe that’s what people like about vinyl?

Don’t know.
Just throwing things out there and what I didn’t like about the RME.

Maybe that’s what makes it sound a bit flat as well to me. 
Who knows. 

Peace and thank you for the civilized conversation.

With this phenomena you are clearly in the psychoacoustic regions, that is a good thing because the experience of music is in our heads, but a bad thing cause it is very influenceable. It would be very interesting, if you did not know what dac your are listening to if the results would be the same. and repeatable.

I’ve done blind tests.  And passed them quite easily.

Again I’m not bragging. Please don’t take it that way.
But do you know what playing musical instruments for 40+ years does to your hearing? 
The way a musician can identify differences is much different than someone not trained in music. 
Studio engineers have some of that as well
But as you become intimate with you instrument you get at least great relative pitch and your hearing is much more focused than many. 

It’s super easy to me to tell the RME apart from my Marantz and other DACs
In fact it takes me only seconds or minute to see if I like something and pinpoint it.
I studied and played music for a long time.  It’s hard work. Super hard work.

And it does make your hearing better.

KaiS wrote:

You like the Marantz’ sound better - I’m perfectly fine with that.

Just a sidemark:
RT60 is nothing that electronics have any influence on, it’s a relatively course acoustics / room reverb measurement.

No electronic device has a “post ringing”, creates reverb.
If you find differences in measurements of it it’s just that RT60 is not very repeatable, e.g. room and mic noise changes the result for each run.

Acoustic measurements in general have no better repeatability than +/- 0.5 dB IF YOU DON’T CHANGE THE MIC POSITION.
If you re-do the setup the repeatability is much lower.

Electronics are to be measured in the electric domain, not through speakers in a room.

True.   Even ambience/temp of mic, drivers etc will make a difference.

I ran the tests around 4 times to make sure.
But in the end you are right.

Thanks for not attacking me.   
I’m not trying to ‘ bash’ anything here. 
Just wanted some info on the RME. 

As a musician of 40 years this is kinda what I hear from it that I don’t like. 

I’ll try and explain this without too much music theory. 

If you have a jazz trio.  Or any trio playing.   
They are spaced a certain distance from each other according to venue and if they are acoustic , rely on a PA etc.
if they have no PA they can’t get too far from each other. 
I’ll get to what I’m trying to say here from that.

Let’s say it’s a guitar , vocal and upright bass. 
The guitar might be playing the 3rd , the bass the fundamental and the vocal will sing around the 5th sometimes or play in harmony with the guitar and bass. 
These notes create what is called harmony. 
The notes actually also interact with each other ( which is why everyone needs to be in tune with each other) and they also create a whole sound emanating from all instruments , kind of binding them together. 

So when people say “ oh this DAC or piece of gear spaces the instruments properly apart from each other “ sometimes that is good up to a point. 

Recently I went to see Beethoven’s 3rd at a concert hall.   
In the most common classical fashion the violins were on the left , cellos one the right with the bass.   They off course make up the most players.
One Oboe in the back middle , one bassoon, one flute , etc. 

Yes you could hear the violins clearly come from the left and differentiate them from the cellos.  But they also created a large soundscape all across when they were in harmony.   

The RME for some reason separates the instruments to the point where I can’t hear a central harmony so much. 

I’ve also heard DACs which are just a mush of everything together.

But the Marantz keeps separation while also hearing that central harmony of all the instruments more. 

Maybe too low of THD isn’t a good thing after all. 
I have no idea.
Maybe it should be kept around 0.001% to have that more binding effect of everything.
Maybe that’s what people like about vinyl?

Don’t know.
Just throwing things out there and what I didn’t like about the RME.

Maybe that’s what makes it sound a bit flat as well to me. 
Who knows. 

Peace and thank you for the civilized conversation.

With this phenomena you are clearly in the psychoacoustic regions, that is a good thing because the experience of music is in our heads, but a bad thing cause it is very influenceable. It would be very interesting, if you did not know what dac your are listening to if the results would be the same. and repeatable.