1 (edited by vladmalik 2016-03-01 16:06:34)

Topic: Does Thunderbolt have lower latency?

Hi Everyone,

Is it true that Thunderbolt interfaces have lower latency? Or does it have more to do with the manufacturer and the quality of their drivers?

I've read that USB buffer has an inherent delay (https://www.presonus.com/community/Lear … io-Latency). Depending on manufacturer, this delay can be quite high.

Many people have argued that Thunderbolt (and Firewire) don't offer any improvement in terms of latency, just higher bandwidth. Do those technologies face something similar to the USB buffer that slows them down? Some manufacturers, in contrast, claim their devices have low latency BECAUSE they are Thunderbolt.

Where do RME's devices/drivers fit in? Would an RME USB device be able to provide <5ms latency? I don't care about bandwidth. I just want to be able to play VST instruments with zero delay.

2 (edited by ramses 2016-03-01 17:54:29)

Re: Does Thunderbolt have lower latency?

> I just want to be able to play VST instruments with zero delay

zero delay is not possible, as you will always have:
- A/D conversion at the audio interface
- transport delay from audio interface to DAW application
- Processing Time of the VST inside of DAW
- alignment of different audio streams inside of DAW
- transport delay from DAW to audio interface
- D/A conversion at the audio interface

Here you can see the Latencies of
- UFX via USB, Firewire
- RayDAT and
- UFX as Preamp connected to RayDAT
as reported by Cubase Pro 8 which is the complete round trip time.

These times will vary slightly between the different RME devices as they use different AD converter.
Those times you can lookup per interface in the handbook.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96192996/RME/forum/Latency-UFX-RayDAT.jpg

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Does Thunderbolt have lower latency?

I understand. I mean that I want "imperceptible" latency. So the takeaway from the table is:

- For a given buffer size, the lowest latency is achieved through PCI
- You achieve the smallest ASIO buffer size with PCI
- You get lower latency with USB than Firewire

Is this partly due to RayDAT's drivers or attributable to the PCI format itself?

Would Thunderbolt performance would be similar to PCI?

I'm looking at budget interfaces. However, if those interfaces come with high latency, then they'll be useless, so I'd rather invest in a better interface.

My question is whether the format itself (PCI, Thunderbolt, USB) is a strong consideration (so I would have to upgrade my motherboard) or if I can get satisfactory performance from a USB interface.

Your table seems to show that the USB device can easily do <10ms latency, so that should be imperceptible.

4

Re: Does Thunderbolt have lower latency?

Thunderbolt equals PCI or PCI Express. You wrote 'huge latency'. Check the above table again, the differences are usually small with RME, and latency is small overall as well. But as you can read in various threads on various forums there can be quite big differences with other manufacturers...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Does Thunderbolt have lower latency?

It looks like you may just want to trigger vst instruments via a midi controller. Because midi going into the computer is not subject to the same latency as incoming audio you will only have to suffer the output latency.

I recently did a show with my ufx connected to a Mac mini running mainstage software and the driver reported 2.2ms roundtrip latency. So output latency alone is below 2ms at 44.1 sample rate and 32 sample buffer. This delay is very near imperceptible when playing form a midi keyboard.

I have plugged a number of other brand interfaces into the same system - some class compliant and some with their own driver and in every case the driver reports minimum 1ms more for output latency alone.

__________________________
Paul Najar
Jaminajar Music Production
www.jaminajar.com

6

Re: Does Thunderbolt have lower latency?

What the driver 'reports' is often intentional cheating. You have to measure the real RTL and hope that only 50% of it is on the output side...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Does Thunderbolt have lower latency?

Does this mean, that my numbers are wrong ?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

8

Re: Does Thunderbolt have lower latency?

You have RME!

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

9 (edited by ramses 2016-03-03 17:06:48)

Re: Does Thunderbolt have lower latency?

Ok thanks for clarification.

In this context - not having your technical insight - it was not 100% clear to me whether your statement
       "What the driver 'reports' is often intentional cheating. "
was related to all interfaces or "all/most" excluding RME.

I have no HW measuring equipment, so I can only base information on such numbers
in Cubase given by Driver/Software and your fine manual.

The intention of my question was simlpy to ensure "quality", that I do not distribute wrong information.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Does Thunderbolt have lower latency?

With  the driver I think is meant what the contol pannel of the audio card reports. Some cards you can set to a 256 buffer (playable) but it buffers it 3 or 4 times, so is in effect a 1024 buffer (unplayable). LOL. Cubase will most of the time report the latency correctly.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

11

Re: Does Thunderbolt have lower latency?

You don't need hardware to test RTL, but the RTL Utility from Oblique.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

12 (edited by ramses 2016-03-04 07:37:14)

Re: Does Thunderbolt have lower latency?

Strange, the utility starts, shows up as process in the process list, but no selection window, nothing ...

EDIT: solved, startup took a few minutes.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

13

Re: Does Thunderbolt have lower latency?

Disable all WDM devices of the RME interfaces. That might help.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME