1 (edited by b4rth 2016-11-19 14:03:56)

Topic: Questions about FF802 and UFX+

Hi guys,

I am orienting for a new interface. The Apollo8 or 16 are on my wishlist but since I miss my HDSP9652 from 10(?) years back I am also looking at RME again. My current interfaces are the Steinberg MR816csx and x (cascaded via FireWire)

I've got a few questions if that is appropriate.
1. What are the difference in conversion chips and analog circuitry between the FF802 and UFX+. The specs tell me its almost the same, but specs alone do not give the complete picture in my opinion. (Analog Circuit etc is also very important)
2. Is it possible to use a knob on the interface itself to control the monitor outputs on these two interfaces and if so, is this analog or digital?
3. Where will the conversion take place if I for example hook up a steinberg mr816 or alesis ai3? In the fireface, or in the attached converter, or both? And will this introduce latency between the rme and the attached converter? (Via ADAT f.e.)
4. Can you daisychain the FF802 with itself and/or with the UFX+ and vice versa?
5. Why is the Dynamic Range of the RME products not on par (just the numbers at first sight) with contendors like Universal Audio and Motu (in the same price range) on paper? (Also related with question 1)
6. Will the new ARC also work with the FF802?
7. When will the thunderface will be introduced?

Thanks in advance for your time.

2 (edited by LSS 2016-10-18 08:51:38)

Re: Questions about FF802 and UFX+

I can answer the easiest ones, waiting for the experts

b4rth wrote:

2. Is it possible to use a knob on the interface itself to control the monitor outputs on these two interfaces and if so, is this analog or digital?

Yes, digital (fireface ufx+) Yes, analog FF802

6. Will the new ARC also work with the FF802?

No


7. When will the thunderface will be introduced?

Ufx + is already shipping, I have one

3 (edited by b4rth 2016-11-19 14:04:14)

Re: Questions about FF802 and UFX+

LSS wrote:

I can answer the easiest ones, waiting for the experts

b4rth wrote:

2. Is it possible to use a knob on the interface itself to control the monitor outputs on these two interfaces and if so, is this analog or digital?

Yes, digital (fireface ufx+) Yes, analog FF802

6. Will the new ARC also work with the FF802?

No


7. When will the thunderface will be introduced?

Ufx + is already shipping, I have one

Thanks so far LSS. Very much appreciated. With thunderface I meant a thunderbolt successor for the fireface :-)

Re: Questions about FF802 and UFX+

Could someone from RME hop in on this please?

Re: Questions about FF802 and UFX+

b4rth wrote:

Thanks so far LSS. Very much appreciated. With thunderface I meant a tuhunderbolt successor for the fireface :-)

Maybe I'm not understanding exactly what you mean, but the UFX+ is a thunderbolt interface (as well as USB3 compatible).

Core i7 4770K | 32GB of RAM | Windows 7 Pro (SP1) 64 bit | Cubase 8.5 64 bit | RME FireFace UCX |

Re: Questions about FF802 and UFX+

Yeah you can JC28.

It would be nice to see the FW 802 as a TB device. The UFX+ is 1300 euros more expensive so not really a competitor. Something with apples and pears ;-)

I am now also looking for another alternative. The MADIFace Pro.

Btw, all previous questions have been answered by the tech staff. Thanks!

7 (edited by ramses 2016-11-19 13:42:14)

Re: Questions about FF802 and UFX+

b4rth wrote:

Yeah you can JC28.

It would be nice to see the FW 802 as a TB device. The UFX+ is 1300 euros more expensive so not really a competitor. Something with apples and pears ;-)

I am now also looking for another alternative. The MADIFace Pro.

Btw, all previous questions have been answered by the tech staff. Thanks!

For the amount of channels thunderbolt is not required for devices below UFX+.

Thunderbolt only raises the price of the unit and supported PC/Laptop/mainboard and
simply makes the choice of PC HW smaller.

The performance of USB2 and Firewire on the UFX in terms of round trip latency between Rec. interface and DAW
is i.e. already close to the values of RayDAT.

If you really prefer thunderbolt for whatever reason, get the UFX+.
Yes its more expensive but also offers you for the future a lot of opportunities to expand.
And MADI is a very nice thing to
- reduce the amount of TOSLINK cables between i.e. Preamps and recording interface
- allows for higher sample rates without loosing too many channels by multiplexing of channels

So its simply your choice, what you prefer.

The different round trip times of UFX, UFX+ and RayDAT you can see here in the excel table:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96192996/tonstudio-forum.de/blog/RME%20UFX%2B/UFX%2B_UFX_RayDAT-Latencies.xlsx.jpg

Related articles:

About UFX+: http://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/inde … 8-RME-UFX/

About expandability of UFX+ via MADI with i.e. Octamic XTC: http://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/inde … Cber-MADI/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

8 (edited by b4rth 2016-11-19 14:26:42)

Re: Questions about FF802 and UFX+

Thank you very much Ramses!

I am looking for an interface with a monitor controller. Preferably 2 or 3 monitor outputs. 1 or 2 headphone amps. 1 or 2 MIC preamps. 16, 24 or 32 i/o TRS. Work on 44.1 khz, but I prefer 96khz.
So that's why I am orienting for this MADI Face Pro.
Its small, and fits on my studio desk easily, can connect up to 64 i/o via MADI, its portable, I can use it in the studio and on the road, etc!

I am still looking for an accompanying convertor with 32IO at the moment. DirectOut Andiamo, Antelope Orion32, Ferrofish A32 are some options I consider at this moment. I also need an db-25 to trs/xlr or combi patchbay, found an affordable one here: http://www.networksound.com/index.php/p … xlr32db25.

In this way my studio equipment (synths/effects) can grow slowly and I don't have to worry about running out of IO.

I am just curious, since I couldn't find any (latency) tests of the MADI Face Pro, how this one performs. It probably just as stunning as the rest of the line-up :-)

9 (edited by ramses 2016-11-19 18:23:11)

Re: Questions about FF802 and UFX+

I would consider the UFX+ because it has Durec. Its always good to have a safety belt
Either standalone or in parallel to DAW recording.
ARC USB as monitor controller. Then expand with MADI.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

10 (edited by b4rth 2016-11-20 20:34:18)

Re: Questions about FF802 and UFX+

Thanks again Ramses. I won't use Durec that's for sure. Are there any other features better on the UFX+?
Please keep in mind that I only need 1 or 2 preamps and only 32 IO as a maximum.

Another converter I overlooked is the SPL Madison. It seems very nice. Hopefully I can hear those converters somewhere in a shop nearby before I make my decision.

11 (edited by ramses 2016-11-20 21:16:24)

Re: Questions about FF802 and UFX+

> Please keep in mind that I only need 1 or 2 preamps and only 32 IO as a maximum.

Yes, but I still think that together with Durec and MADI you get the best value.
Ok 2 Mic inputs more .. who cares ?! Regard it as reserve, 2 Instrument inputs or even 2 line inputs more.
As you can use the inputs for all of these 3 use cases !
So if you need 2 mics, then you have 8+2 = 10 analog inputs, 8 analog outputs.

So if you need now 30 analog channels, you will most likely add 1-2 A/D converter via MADI (either 2x16 or 1x32).
If you do not want RME .. ok
If you look at other products, some have Tascam connectors, some have directly the inputs on the device.
You need to look what fits you best in terms of amount of rack units.

Think also about, that remote controllability you will only have with RME devices I think, if you shall need that.
So you need to look whether this is a value for you or not.
As of today I heard, only the XTC is remote controllable via TotalMix, all other RME devices that are
MIDI are controllable, will be controlled by the RME Midi Remote application.
But the XTC only allows to use 4 of the mic inputs as servo symmetric input.
The other 4 are for instruments, otherwise I would have recommended XTC to you.
But only 4 line ins per unit is surely too few for you, and I do not know whether you also require 8 D/a converters as well.

The enhancements of the UFX+ compared to UFX, taken from Messe Videos, Forum and handbook:
- better analog circuits
- better SNR / THD values
- USB3/USB2, Thunderbolt, "hot-plugging" supported under Windows
- additional 64 channels by MADI: 188 channel (94 IN, 94 OUT): 24 Analog, 32 ADAT, 4 AES, 128 MADI
- Direct USB Recording up to 76 channels can be recorded at once out of 12 Analog and 64 MADI Inputs
- internal Real Time Clock, timestamp now for file names for Durec
- enhanced reliability when using slower or "multi partitioned" USB thumb devices
- Mic Inputs with +18dBU max, no PAD for better quality
- Mic Inputs have 75 (!) dB Gain Range, this is 10dB more compared to UCX/UFX
  and 15dB more compared to 802
- Phone outputs with only 2 Ohm impedance, with +19 dBU max output Level
- new "ARC USB", to be connected either to UFX+ or to PC
- Wordclock is configurable to act as either wordclock or MADI coax.
- MADI split Modus enabled for 32 channels via madi optical and 32 via koax (BNC)
- MADI I/O via totalmix still available even when connecting to USB which has a channel limit of
   30 I/O (12 analog + 16 ADAT plus AES)
- both potis right beside the display are now directly for controlling vokume of the 2 phones outputs.
- Fully stand-alone with enhancements compared to UFX, additional settings possible for full stand-alone capabilities

And you still have the performant, mature RME drivers, totalmix, digicheck ...

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Questions about FF802 and UFX+

ramses wrote:

> Please keep in mind that I only need 1 or 2 preamps and only 32 IO as a maximum.

Yes, but I still think that together with Durec and MADI you get the best value.
Ok 2 Mic inputs more .. who cares ?! Regard it as reserve, 2 Instrument inputs or even 2 line inputs more.
As you can use the inputs for all of these 3 use cases !
So if you need 2 mics, then you have 8+2 = 10 analog inputs, 8 analog outputs.

b4rth: Won't need that much flexibility.

So if you need now 30 analog channels, you will most likely add 1-2 A/D converter via MADI (either 2x16 or 1x32).
If you do not want RME .. ok
If you look at other products, some have Tascam connectors, some have directly the inputs on the device.
You need to look what fits you best in terms of amount of rack units.

Think also about, that remote controllability you will only have with RME devices I think, if you shall need that.
So you need to look whether this is a value for you or not.
As of today I heard, only the XTC is remote controllable via TotalMix, all other RME devices that are
MIDI are controllable, will be controlled by the RME Midi Remote application.
But the XTC only allows to use 4 of the mic inputs as servo symmetric input.
The other 4 are for instruments, otherwise I would have recommended XTC to you.
But only 4 line ins per unit is surely too few for you, and I do not know whether you also require 8 D/a converters as well.

b4rth: Won't need that either.

The enhancements of the UFX+ compared to UFX, taken from Messe Videos, Forum and handbook:
- better analog circuits
- better SNR / THD values
- USB3/USB2, Thunderbolt, "hot-plugging" supported under Windows
- additional 64 channels by MADI: 188 channel (94 IN, 94 OUT): 24 Analog, 32 ADAT, 4 AES, 128 MADI
- Direct USB Recording up to 76 channels can be recorded at once out of 12 Analog and 64 MADI Inputs
- internal Real Time Clock, timestamp now for file names for Durec
- enhanced reliability when using slower or "multi partitioned" USB thumb devices
- Mic Inputs with +18dBU max, no PAD for better quality
- Mic Inputs have 75 (!) dB Gain Range, this is 10dB more compared to UCX/UFX
  and 15dB more compared to 802
- Phone outputs with only 2 Ohm impedance, with +19 dBU max output Level
- new "ARC USB", to be connected either to UFX+ or to PC
- Wordclock is configurable to act as either wordclock or MADI coax.
- MADI split Modus enabled for 32 channels via madi optical and 32 via koax (BNC)
- MADI I/O via totalmix still available even when connecting to USB which has a channel limit of
   30 I/O (12 analog + 16 ADAT plus AES)
- both potis right beside the display are now directly for controlling vokume of the 2 phones outputs.
- Fully stand-alone with enhancements compared to UFX, additional settings possible for full stand-alone capabilities

b4rth: Won't need that either as seperate things (the ARC USB etc)

And you still have the performant, mature RME drivers, totalmix, digicheck ...

I will also have this with an RME MADI Face Pro.

But again, thank you for your thoughts and advice. Very much appreciated

Re: Questions about FF802 and UFX+

@ramses: Well all things considered (also looked at other companies) I think the UFX+ will help me the most. AES EBU is very handy as well because my monitors support that. So: I've just ordered an UFX+! Thanks for your advice!

Re: Questions about FF802 and UFX+

You're welcome, have fun with it ! I also have one, its great.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Questions about FF802 and UFX+

Thanks!

Re: Questions about FF802 and UFX+

ramses wrote:

You're welcome, have fun with it ! I also have one, its great.

Still rocking it with my UFX+ (and two Alesis AI3's attached via ADAT).
Is this new Sonnet also a good investment? The old one seems not really available and this new one is only 50 dollars and the new offering for 2020-....?

https://www.sonnettech.com/product/alle … 4port.html

Here are the specs:
Part No.     
USB3-4PM-E     Allegro Type-A USB 3.2 PCIe 4-Port
Hardware     
Warranty     2-year
Form Factor     PCIe computer card
Bus Interface     PCI Express 2.0 x1
Peripherals Supported     Industry standard USB 3.2 Gen 1&2, 3.1 Gen 1&2, 3.0, 2.0, and 1.1
Bus Powered Peripherals Supported     HDs, SSDs, DVDs, and Blu-ray devices up to 2A per port(2)
Cables Supported     USB 3.0 with Standard-A male connector, USB 2.0 with Standard-A male connector(1)
Chipset     Fresco Logic
RoHS Compliant     Yes
Package Contents    

    Allegro USB 3.0 4-Port PCIe Computer Card
    Documentation

USB Support     
Number of Ports     4 external
Standard     Complies with OHCI (Open Host Controller Interface), EHCI (Enhanced Host Controller Interface), and xHCI (eXtensible Host Controller Interface) standards
UASP     USB attached SCSI protocol supported under
OS X 10.8.5+ and Windows 8.1+
USB Charging     USB Battery Charging 1.2 Compliant
(up to 7.5W per port)
Data Transfer Rate     5 Gbps
Number of Devices Supported     Up to 31
Hot Plug     Supports hot-pluggable and hot swappable device connection
Boot Support     Thunderbolt 3 Macs

17 (edited by ramses 2019-12-31 21:22:20)

Re: Questions about FF802 and UFX+

Only the older Sonnet Allegro Pro has 4 x FL1100 USB3 chips on it.

The newer Sonnet Allegro Pro is an USB 3.2 card with 2x ASMedia 1142 chipset, might work, needs to be tried.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Questions about FF802 and UFX+

Sorry for the late reply but thanks again ramses! I tried a lot of things (new cables, different usb interfaces, tuning, etc) and also because of the excellent help from MC and RME support, I came to the conclusion that a lot of streams/channels + UFX+ + USB3 with the X99-a isn't a happy marriage

In the end I now switched to thunderbolt with an Asus X99A board + i7 5820k -> TB EX3 controller -> Startech TB3(USB-c)-to-TB2 converter - Delock TB2 cable of 2M -> UFX+. Since then I don't have any problems!

Also the old 'Hammerfall' driver is back :-)