Topic: Babyface Pro off PCI-e USB card?

Hello all!

Is it possible to run a Babyface Pro through a PCIe to USB adapter without any degradation to performance?

I must use Win 7 which doesn't have USB drivers for modern motherboards such as z390 and the only solution is to use third party PCI-E to USB adapters.

Will this add DPC latency or other issues? Any particular USB chipsets or brands recommended? I can power Babyface via a power adapter if there isn't enough current... But what about latencies etc??

2 (edited by ramses 2019-08-02 05:01:04)

Re: Babyface Pro off PCI-e USB card?

EDITED !!

Don't worry about latencies with an PCIe adapter in general, assumed that it has a good driver.

I would recommend to get a working USB3 interface and use it in USB2 compat mode.
Makes no sense to sacrifice a "precious" PCIe socket on mainboard for an USB2 controller.

Not 100% sure, whether USB2 compatibility mode could have issues under different USB3 chipsets...
As BBF Pro is an USB2 interface there is no comment in the manual in regards to compatibility to USB3 chipsets.
I am running i.e. the ADI-2 Pro which is an USB2 interface also on an USB3 card in USB2 compat mode.
Something like this should also work for you with the BBF Pro. You need to try.

With the madiface driver for UFX+/II etc I can recommend cards with FL1100 USB chip.
For Windows 7 they offer good working drivers and under 10 the support comes with the OS.

The advantage of the FL cards driver is, that it uses MSI's (message signalled interrupts).
This is a more efficient interrupt handling method.
Such cards with FL1100 USB3 chips are backward compatible to USB2, so also devices like ADI-2 Pro or
Octamic XTC in Class Compliant mode work without issues.

I would start with such a card and try whether it also works nicely for the BBF Pro (which uses another RME ASIO driver than madiface driver).

I am using a Sonnet Card, currently there is only the cheaper card available, which does not have an USB3 chip per port (4) but one FL1100 USB3 chip for all ports. I would use this card then only for connecting the recording interface, to isolate it from other USB devices.

http://www.sonnettech.com/product/alleg … 4port.html

EDIT: if you look for this card, ensure that you get the model with 4x USB3 Type A connectors, there is also another model with type C connectors, I would use the 1st one, the other might be a different card, am currently checking.

Comments:
I personally could connect two UFX+ (lots of channels, 2x188=376 !) and one ADI-2 Pro to a Sonnet Allegro Pro on Win7&10.
This particular card was quite expensive as it had an USB3 FL1100 chip for each of the 4 ports dedicated.
Therefore the price was quite high at around €150.
Now this card is not available anymore, the new Allegro Pro is a different card with only two USB 3.1 ports and a different USB chip where it is not sure, whether it works well and how backward compatibility to USB3 and USB2 actually is.
I would simply try the old Allegro Type A USB 3.0 PCIe 4-Port.
You can download either the Win7 driver from Sonnet: current version 3.8.35514.0
Alternatively directly from Fresco Logic.
I had no issues with these driver versions under Win7: 3.6.9.0a, 3.8.34556.0

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Babyface Pro off PCI-e USB card?

Ramses,

Thank you!

Is this the Pro version? https://www.amazon.com/Sonnet-Allegro-P … B00XPUHO10 Looks like it's avaialbe in US.

Regardless of the version, even if I get the $65 one and connect only Babyface Pro to it:  do these cards add any DPC or roundtrip latency at all? I've configured my system to lowere DPC, will it remain same when migrating to a new hardware with added Sonnet?

Lastly, do you also run Win 7 on newer motherboard that doesn't nativeyl support Win 7 USB?

Re: Babyface Pro off PCI-e USB card?

How do I know which versions have the original trusted chipsed that you've mentioned?

5 (edited by ramses 2019-08-02 05:02:52)

Re: Babyface Pro off PCI-e USB card?

There is only one version of the Sonnet Allegro Pro with 4x USB Type A adapter.
Look into their Product Portfolio.
https://www.sonnettech.com/product/comp … index.html

BTW I added information to my previous posting, pls reread.

From which country do you come may I ask ?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

6 (edited by ramses 2019-08-02 05:09:39)

Re: Babyface Pro off PCI-e USB card?

In Germany its this card:
https://www.heise.de/preisvergleich/son … 48037.html

You can potentially differentiate it by this product description: USB3-4PM-E

Amazon Germany seems to have still has two offers of the old PRO card with 4xFL110 chip, which requires a PCIe x4 socket (!!!) https://www.amazon.de/Sonnet-USB3-PRO-4 … amp;sr=8-2
But with €172 its very expensive and you need the x4 PCIe socket.

This is the less expensive card with 4-ports and only 1 FL1100 chip which only needs a normal PCIe x1 socket:
https://www.amazon.de/dp/B00GRGCV2G?lin … DlYialxarQ
At Amazon DE this card costs a little over €70, cheapest price in DE around €60.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Babyface Pro off PCI-e USB card?

I'm in the USA.

I'm a bit confused. It says that this card has two controllers and four ports: https://www.sonnettech.com/product/alle … -pcie.html

- Just like the one you listed (non-Pro) for around 65 euros.

So what's the difference between them?

Re: Babyface Pro off PCI-e USB card?

I assume you stumbled now over the newer model with two USB 3.1 controller, this I do not mean.
You need to look for the card with 4 USB3 type A ports.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Babyface Pro off PCI-e USB card?

Its this one here on Amazon US:
https://www.amazon.com/Sonnet-Allegro-4 … amp;sr=8-2

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Babyface Pro off PCI-e USB card?

ramses wrote:

Its this one here on Amazon US:
https://www.amazon.com/Sonnet-Allegro-4 … amp;sr=8-2

This is the new one with two controllers, rght? You've saying if I get the old one with four controllers then I can run 4 devices off the card versus Babyface only off a single card linked above?

11 (edited by ramses 2019-08-02 06:15:50)

Re: Babyface Pro off PCI-e USB card?

To use the old Allegro Pro with 4xUSB3 / 4xFL1100 USB3 chip on board it has some prerequisites:

1. Do you have a mainboard with an empty PCIe x4 (!!) slot, that has all PCIe lanes dedicated for this slot ?
    Not that some PCIe lanes are being stolen by a M.2 slot that might be in use for SSD or NVMe SSD ?
2. Should you intend to use one of the bigger sockets (x16, x8) that are usually intended to be used
    by 2nd or even 3rd graphic card, then you need to check that it doesn't "steal" PCIe lanes from the
    PCIe slot, where your primary GPU is connected to.
3. It makes only sense to pay the much higher price, if you have more than one audio/recording device,
    that you want to isolate behind this dedicated USB3 controller.
    Or to have 4 full USB3 controller, if you do not get drivers for USB ports from chipset as you said.

Then you can use the old Allegro Pro with 4 x Type A USB3.0 ports (where each has a FL1100 chip behind).
You can identify these cards by
"Allegro Pro"
"USB3-PRO-4PM-E"
"USB3" (NOT USB3.1)
"4 x Type A connectors"
"4 FL1100 chips" (NOT 2xUSB3.1 chips).
At Amazon US I didn't find this model anymore, try to buy at german Amazon:
Amazon DE: https://www.amazon.de/Sonnet-USB3-PRO-4 … amp;sr=8-2

If you do not get this card, which is not manufactured anymore since 1+y, then go for the variant without the "Pro".
But also here careful, as there are two different models of this card.
You need the card with
"Allegro" in the name (not "Allegro Pro")
"USB3-4PM-E" (not "USB3-PRO-4PM-E")
"1x FL1100" USB3 chip
"4x USB3 Type A USB connectors"
This card requires only a socket with 1 PCIe lane.
Amazon US: https://www.amazon.com/Sonnet-Allegro-4 … amp;sr=8-2

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

12 (edited by stason99 2019-08-02 13:36:21)

Re: Babyface Pro off PCI-e USB card?

So if I get this card :
https://www.amazon.com/Sonnet-Allegro-4 … amp;sr=8-2

- I should dedicate the whole card to a single Babyface Pro, right? And I should run all other USB devices off another identical card or cheaper no-name Chinese cards, right?

13 (edited by ramses 2019-08-02 17:19:48)

Re: Babyface Pro off PCI-e USB card?

I would 1st try whether the other USB devices disturb this card or not before buying more.
Or get the more expensive one from somewhere, then you have for the double price 4 times more USB controller
and every device is hidden behind its own dedicated one.
This I would personally prefer over inserting two with one USB3 controller which is shared by 4 ports.
But you need as I said to look whether a PCIe Slot with 4 or more lanes is present.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Babyface Pro off PCI-e USB card?

ramses wrote:

I would 1st try whether the other USB devices disturb this card or not before buying more.
Or get the more expensive one from somewhere, then you have for the double price 4 times more USB controller
and every device is hidden behind its own dedicated one.
This I would personally prefer over inserting two with one USB3 controller which is shared by 4 ports.
But you need as I said to look whether a PCIe Slot with 4 or more lanes is present.

I got Win7 x64 with native USB ports working on an X570 motherboard but there's DPC latency by ntoskrnl.exe, The USB driver is a modified version adapted to Win7, so it's not official.
When I disable one of the USB ports, the latency lowers but is still there. I can't disable all USB ports since Babyface is running off one.

Do you think the 4 port Sonnet card (listed above) might give me better latency if I run Babyface from it and disable native USB ports?

Does the card have good drivers for Windows 7 64 bit??