Topic: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

Hi,

Recently when i switched on my ADI2 DAC from standby mode (previously setting is COAXIAL input), i found no sound and the state is flickering "sync & lock" in State Overview screen.

Just discovered i can overcome this by pressing "COAX" in remote again. Very annoying, could RME do something about it in next firmware release.

Thanks,
Gordon

2

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

We need a detailed description of your setup and signal states. No one else has ever experienced this, so without details there is no chance to reproduce it.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

It did happen occasionally not everytime, my setup is a desktop computer (running Win10) USB > Jitterbug > Schitt Eitr (USB  to spdif converter) > ADI2 DAC > preamp > poweramp.

Actually, I am extremely happy with my purchase of this DAC. I remember the last usage is my computer audio set at my soundcard output to my desktop speaker, and i left that setting for the whole morning, this afternoon i came back and want to listen to my main system and switch my computer audio output to Eitr, the flickering occurred.

Before i figure out the pressing of COAX on remote, I actually tried on/off my Eitr and restart my computer and it didn't help.

Or maybe the problem is related to WIN10 i believe.

Thanks,
Gordon

4

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

Typical sample rate when this happens? Next time you see it please go into the State Overview and check what it says ifor the SPc input and the clock state.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

44.1K. OK will record and report next time when i see this again.

Thanks for your help.

Gordon

6

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

...or take a photo...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

Yesterday, I have a similar experience, when the win10 PC resume from sleep, the RME produce click & pops in its output, the status shown was lock and Bit shown 16 & 24 alternatively. Restart PC solve the problem.

Now i disable power management of USB in device manager and see if it helps.

Any further suggestions is welcome.

Thanks,
Gordon

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

If I were you, I would try a less acrobatic set up, and I would attach the computer directly to the ADI, with the USB input.
The Jitterbug is a useless device (you must read online about RME SteadyClock FS technology: no jitter issues are possible with your RME ADI-2).

And if you have doubt about USB audio quality, you can run the Bit Test provided by RME on your computer: if your set up is correct and the bit test passes, you will be 100% certain to have a bit perfect chain. And there is nothing better than perfect... I mean if your set up is bit perfect with computer running directly into the ADI, Jitterbug and Schiit devices wont give you anything more, except flickering and clicks and pops...

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

9 (edited by ramses 2020-05-04 15:09:49)

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

+1 PC--USB---ADI--done. Rest is not needed in such a RME setup .. (-> Steadyclock).

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

10 (edited by Curt962 2020-05-04 16:06:21)

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

Acrobatic.  I love it!  big_smile.

That term instantly conjures up images of a "Cirque du Soleil" of Tangled Audiophile Gadgetry that does ABSOLUTELY nothing meaningful, yet most surely complicates any Signal Path troubleshooting you might need to do at some point in the future.

Gordon, your RME was designed from it's inception to be immune to Jitter, etc.  This has been proven repeatedly in 3rd Party Tests.   

Run your USB straight to the DAC "Bareback", and enjoy your RME!

Best,

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

Thanks all for your information.

I use an USB to COAXIAL converter is because there is a long distance (>10') between my desktop PC and RME, i understand that USB does not support such a long distance and COAX supports a longer run of cable.

Hope it explains.

Thanks,
Gordon

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

Well I am getting 5m with USB3 when taking a good shielded cable from Lindy.
So with USB2 I would guess 8m should be possible with a good shielded cable.

10' is what ? 10 ft ?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

And Gordon, even if you need to convert to coaxial, get rid of that Jitterbug. It's a snake oil and won't enhance anything except noise...
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … iew.10205/

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

Yes >10 ft

OK, will try to buy a good quality USB cable and see if it works.

Thanks all for your input.

Gordon

15 (edited by ramses 2020-05-05 06:45:53)

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

16,4 ft (5m) is according to the USB2 standard ...
https://www.lindy.de/5m-USB-2-0-Typ-A-a … ;ci=800501

And even this would work: 7.5m = 24,6 ft
https://www.lindy.de/75m-USB-2-0-Typ-A- … ;ci=800501

And in a lucky case even this: 10m = 32,8 ft
At least they offer a cable like this
https://www.lindy.de/10m-USB-2-0-Typ-A- … ;ci=800501

If they do not have it on stock, check Amazon & Co or via google.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

16 (edited by KaiS 2020-05-05 16:50:43)

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

For 10m you really have to be lucky with a passive USB-2.0 cable to work.

But there is no reason to go that route, active cables aren't more expensive.

I'm using this 15m USB-2.0 extension, 25€, without any problems for several different audio devices:
https://smile.amazon.de/gp/product/B004 … &psc=1

If 15m+some (it's an extension) is not enough, it's said you can daisychain two of those or buy the 30m version, 40€ (which I haven't tested).

Or this one with direct connecting plugs (not an extension) 20m, 25€, from the same manufacturer, again not tested by me:
https://smile.amazon.de/DeLock-Kabel-2- … mp;sr=1-11


smile  maybe the jitterbug has started to do it's job, introducing jitter sad

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

Thanks all for your advice & link, i never thought 7.5m is possible for the USB input of RME would work!

I think i will try the 7.5m one, thank you.

Gordon

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

ramses wrote:

16,4 ft (5m) is according to the USB2 standard ...
https://www.lindy.de/5m-USB-2-0-Typ-A-a … ;ci=800501

And even this would work: 7.5m = 24,6 ft
https://www.lindy.de/75m-USB-2-0-Typ-A- … ;ci=800501

And in a lucky case even this: 10m = 32,8 ft
At least they offer a cable like this
https://www.lindy.de/10m-USB-2-0-Typ-A- … ;ci=800501

If they do not have it on stock, check Amazon & Co or via google.

@ramses - Did those longer ones from Lindy work for you?

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

Based on my experience with USB3, that with good cables you can exceed the specs (similar with TOSKLINK).
I assume that 7.5m should be relatively easy be possible for USB2, and as such cables exist, maybe even 10m.

Well .. its only a few bucks, simply try.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

My personal experience: passive USB 2.0 cabling is limited to 3-5m.

@ramses: with no practical evaluation I'd suggest to go with my proposal, active cables are reliable and do not cost any more, while reaching even to a longer distance.
They are available shorter than 15m too.

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

Cables don't cost much and I should be surprised if USB2 only supports 5m with much lower transfer speeds compared to USB3.
According to the standard, the 5m have to be achieved with much cheaper cables. Therefore - just like USB3 - with better shielded USB2 cables you should also support slightly longer cables.
There are certainly as in many other areas also exceptions / product variations.
We don't have to agree on anything that would be better to take your or my suggestion. I don't care, I just wanted to contribute an idea, nothing more.
And to be honest ... with the low cable prices it doesn't matter anyway what he takes. Try it out, if it doesn't work, send it back and you're done.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

22 (edited by KaiS 2020-05-05 23:32:36)

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

Technical Sidenote, why the bumble-bee cannot fly smile :

With higher speed data cables it's not the quality of the shield that makes the difference.


One limiting factor is the capacitance of the data lines against each other and the other conductors and shield that "eats" the signal level.

This stray capacitance reduces the signal level down to the point where it does not trigger the receiver with longer cables:
Longer cable, more capacitive load, less signal.
Lessening the capacitance per meter cable is possible, but limited with "normal" constructions.
Even this does not always help, see down below!


Lowering capacitance helped when I had to connect mouse and keyboard (RS232 at that time, comparably very low speed) over the distance of 15m in my studio (machine room to control room).

I had the option to use a complicated active solution.
Or built my own cables, which I did, using lo capacitance cables with a special connection scheme.


Later USB became more common and reliable, active cable, problem finally solved.


And then there are the laws of physics:
The above (lo cap helps) is true only for relative short distances in relationship to the wavelength of the frequency to be transferred.
For greater distances (or higher frequencies) a cable turns into a "transmission line" that follows different laws of physics.
Lowering cable capacitance does not help then.
A 10m USB 2.0 cable is well within this range, this is why the active repeaters are in the middle of a 15m USB cable, not just at the beginning.


USB 2.0 specification says maximum of 5m without active repeater.

23 (edited by ramses 2020-05-06 06:58:13)

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

Well I talked about 7.5m, which is only 50% over the specs.
You talk a lot now about 10 and 15m which is a different thing.
Are we really talking about the same ?
Well .. I will order now a 7.5m Lindy cable and will give it a try and report back, because I am now interested whether there is a chance compareable to the 5 vs 3m with USB3 which is even 66% over the specs.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

24 (edited by KaiS 2020-05-06 09:42:14)

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

I've tried a lot, tested limitations, reporting everything would become a lenghtly, boring post.


Standard passive USB cables always had a 5m practical limit here.
Above the results become unrelieable, "flickering" like the topic starter reported.


I'm using active cables of different makes for 5, 10 and 15m on appliances like audio, printers, keyboard, mice, whatever, without problems.
With active cables you're on the save side, at no additional cost.


As mentioned above, with dedicated passive cable construction 7.5m, even 10m likely is possible, maybe limited to the lower sample rates.

Repeated RME Bit Test runs should give a first hint.
But remember - with out-of-specs levels a connection might just be at the edge to work, until a device heats up a bit or anything else changes.
Takes some time to evaluate.


The usual way is:
when you found the limit where it just works, go one step back for reliability.
That's called safety margin.


Let's see what you get - audio is a beast as it's realtime, no resending of lost data packets is possible.
Therefore audio is more sensitive to transmission errors then, e.g. a file transfer from a disk.

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

Hi KaiS,

Any active USB cable recommendation for 7.5m? I have searched Google and nothing found.

Thanks,
Gordon

26 (edited by KaiS 2020-05-06 11:47:02)

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

For 7.5m I go with a 5m active extension (sometimes called "hub") and plug a normal 3m cable into.

Or take 10m and be more flexible with distance and cable routing.
Usecases can change or extend from time to time.

Usually there's a place to hide some additional length.

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

Thanks all for your suggestions. i finally managed to get a stable PCM stream to the DAC for weeks after removing Jitterbug and followed setting for win10 USB problems solving found from Google.

I have also ordered a Lindy 7.5m USB cable and see it sounds better than COAX.

Thanks,
Gordon

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

> followed setting for win10 USB problems solving found from Google

Which Windows 10 USB problems please ? Can you please provide me a link, many thanks.

> I have also ordered a Lindy 7.5m USB cable and see it sounds better than COAX.

Digital data transfer has no sound, its able to transfer audio "bit perfect" (if you do no mistake like e.g. reducing the volume in your audio player) and this you can check with the ADI-2 Pro bit perfect test. There is absolutely no difference in sound whether you use USB, optical SPDIF, coaxial SPDIF, ADAT, AES, ... This is only a different transport of digital data but does not change the digital data itself.

The only issue that can happen with SPDIF coax, that you might get maybe a little bit hum, why optical SPDIF is preferred because it gives you galvanic isolation.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

The problem i encountered were sometimes lost of signal as indicated in RME status. Sorry I can't remember of all what i did to solve the problem, but listed below are some links i remember. Now i did enable exclusive mode in Eitr.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChiROFNHObo

https://windowsreport.com/usb-not-working-windows-10/

https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/hel … d-problems

Hope it helps.

After confirmed that i get a stable USB to COAX input of RME through Eitr, today i try putting back the jitterbug, i found i prefer the sound of adding the jitterbug to the chain, it presents a bit warmer and holographic image to the sound and i don't know why.

Thanks,
Gordon

30 (edited by ramses 2020-05-11 10:13:28)

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

gordonchan2001 wrote:

After confirmed that i get a stable USB to COAX input of RME through Eitr, today i try putting back the jitterbug, i found i prefer the sound of adding the jitterbug to the chain, it presents a bit warmer and holographic image to the sound and i don't know why.

You can easily validate with the ADI-2 Pro/DAC's Bit perfect test, whether digital transmission is lossless between audio player and the ADI-2 Pro/DAC. These are the "endpoints" in this signal chain.

If the "Bit Perfect Test" succeeds without jitterbug, then its fine, your setup is ok.

Then repeat the "bit perfect test" with the jitterbug in the signal chain.

If it passes, then audio is still bit perfect, but then you are a victim of psychoacoustic effects, that you think it sounds better and thus start to hear it this way when comparing.... Its the way how our brain works, for all of us.

If it doesn't pass, then the jitterbug modifies the audio signal, then I definitively would throw it away.

BTW .. RME Steadyclock technology ensures to eliminate jitter from digital links. The final D/A conversion in these devices happens by using the Femto Second clock, not with the clock signal which is being derived from USB.
https://www.rme-audio.de/steadyclock-fs.html
https://www.soundonsound.com/people/rme-designs

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … iew.10205/

Sorry Gordon.   The Jitterbug is Snake Oil. 

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

Thanks all for your input, i got bit perfect stream with and without jitterbug. But i still prefer putting jitterbug in the chain, i think audio perception is something cannot be explained all by science, for example, i like tube sound though it adds distortion.

Thanks,
Gordon

33 (edited by ramses 2020-05-12 08:21:44)

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

EDITED:

I'm sorry, Gordon, but these are two different pairs of shoes, and the comparison is invalid. You're mixing the terms, and come to wrong conclusions.

Tube sound is something that can be both heard and measured. But we are talking about something else, namely audio data that has already been digitized once and is now available digitally in a long sequence of "zeros" and "ones", simply binary values, nothing more.

You have noticed yourself that the transport of this digital audio data (binary values) to the internal CPU of the ADI-2 Pro/DAC is error-free. So the data (each Bit and Byte) has been transferred via USB, and is now internally available in digital form and unchanged.

If nothing changed in the data (zeros and ones), then there can be no change in the sound.
That should make sense to you, right?!

Jitter is also no longer relevant at this point. Steadyclock has compensated for any jitter so that you have a stable digital connection.
And from the design of the device the final D/A conversion (what restores the analog sound with the AKM chip) is done with the internal Femto Second (FS) clock. This means that any jitter on the digital line (USB) is without any effect at this point for D/A conversion.

The high quality of the ADI-2 Pro/DAC's D/A conversion is the D/A conversion quality of the AKM chip, combined with the precision of the internal FS clock

If you think you hear any differences now, then they are simply psychoacoustic effects.
It's worth checking out.

In order not to be blindly exposed to psychoacoustic effects, two things are worthwhile:
a) to know that they exist, how the mechanisms work and to act accordingly according to the recommendations regarding tests / methodology, etc.
b) to know how digital audio transmission works plus the RME specials in the design of the devices. Then you can perform logical conclusions that some observations maybe are not true and a matter of psychoacoustic.

Without these things you don't have the right orientation, and unfortunately you are simply at the mercy of all this HiFi Snake Oil nonsense.

From a setup point of view it would also be generally recommended to remove things from the signal path that are simply useless and just another potential source of error, or that might even become damaged over time and then perhaps introduce interference into the system that might even be unnoticed at first and then later can only be found out with increased troubleshooting effort.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

34 (edited by ramses 2020-05-12 08:00:02)

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

I see you online, I just edited my posting so that it is hopefully better readable and understandable, pls re-read.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

Thank ramses, you words are well taken.

May be i try inviting my friends to do a blind test. smile

Everything looks good at the moment. I will be removing jitterbug from the chain if i experienced PCM stream instability in future.

Thanks,
Gordon

36 (edited by ramses 2020-05-12 09:33:56)

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

gordonchan2001 wrote:

Thank ramses, you words are well taken.

May be i try inviting my friends to do a blind test. smile

Everything looks good at the moment. I will be removing jitterbug from the chain if i experienced PCM stream instability in future.

Thanks,
Gordon

But whatever you and your friends might think that you hear .. pls keep the following in mind:
a) its technically impossible that you hear a difference
b) if you hear a difference then you and your friends are a victim of psychoacoustic
you need to look how you can exclude as many factors as possible so that it does not come to psychoacoustic effects.

And even then it can be very tricky, because the ear/brain is unable to remember sound longer then approx 1 sec
why it is so extremely important to perform quick A/B tests.

If you read more on this topic you will also stumble over the topic "blind tests" and "double blind tests".
The latter is a test szenario, where not only the listener is "blind" not knowing what listening szenario is being chosen,
but also the guy who changes between A and B does not know what A and B really is.
Otherwise he could maybe influence the tester by certain reactions / habits that can happen, if he hears the device, from which he expects, that it might sound better ...

So please be careful with your evaluations when doing tests .. its very easy to fool yourself.
And to involve more people makes the accuracy not better, everything becomes more weired,
becauase maybe one person is socially dominant and if he thinks he hears a difference others
might become unsure and follow his position, because nobody wants to tell "I could not hear it",
because people could think that he has not so good ears ... all this can happen.

So a certain amount of technical knowledge and test methodology is really required not to confuse you(rself) and others who read your conclusions.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

37 (edited by KaiS 2020-05-12 11:05:21)

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

Sighted tests are useless.

Our brain is made to squeeze the maximum amount of "information" out of the little amount of data our senses deliver.
More then 90% of this "information" is pure, unvalidated assumption.


This mechanism origins from the time when humans where hunters and prey at the same time.
The click of a brocken twig and a bit of rustle in the dry leaves could mean: here's the bear, coming to eat you - or here's the rabbit to catch to make you survive another day.
Very little information for a vital decision, assumptions fill the major gap.


In our "tests" and "comparisons" nothing is vital, but the mechanism is still there.
If you assume something should be there you will, with full conviction, recognize it.


Another example:
Guess how large the area is you are able to see sharp?
You feel it's your complete field of view, right?!


Stick out your arm and look at your thumbs fingernail - that's the area your eye is capable to see with high resolution, 1° of the whole field of view.
The rest is brain's assumption.

Your don't belive it?
Stare at a certain point somewhere, then, without moving your eyes, try to recognize things around you: do you see the edges of things, the colors -...!


And then there is the blind spot - an area in the eye about 15° to the outside where you don't see anything at all.
Ever noticed it? No?
Your brain fills the gap by pure assumption what might be there, but you take it for real.

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

Thanks all, very informative.

I agreed that during a blind test the audience shouldn't know what is inside the chain and that is what i intended to do.

Thanks,
Gordon

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

Happy to report that the 7.5m Lindy USB2.0 cable that arrived lately works flawlessly.

Thanks all for your help.

Gordon

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

Hi all,

I do not know why when using USB input of RME for Tidal desktop app for windows10 cannot output bit perfect stream using exclusive mode in Tidal app.

When i stream master album using COAX through Eitr, i can get 96/24, but when using USB, it reports 44.1 with no bits information.

Could someone tell me what i have done wrong here.

Thanks,
Gordon

41

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

You did not search the forum for 'Tidal'. It is known to not change the sample rate. You have to do that manually or use a player with Tidal support.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

Tidal's sample rate switching works on iPhone.
I just had to delete the Tidal app and reload it after the last iOS update.

If you have one lying around ...

Re: Flickering sync & lock in State Overview

Thanks KaiS, But everything is on my win10 PC, i really want a player that can do the bit perfect job.

MC, Could you suggest some of the best Tidal players for Win10 that support bit perfect to USB?

Thanks,
Gordon