Topic: Warmer Headphone Amp to use with RME ADI-2 Dac

Hi, I am new to the forum so my apologies if this has been asked before.
I have had the RME ADI-2 for over a year and I enjoy it very much as a DAC and also it EQ capabilities.  For me this is an end-game DAC.  However, the amp I find it a bit bright using my Hifiman Ananda, 6XX and also the Fostex TH-X00.  I also purchased an Modhouse Argon but it has not arrived yet....
I have been looking for a warmer headphone amp.  I don't like THX, too bright and boring for my taste.  I tried the SP200, THX AAA 789... not for me. 
I am after a "fun" sound more than a super extra detailed, clinic sound.
I am considering the Rupert Neve Headphone amp & The Audio GD 1.... I don't know which other options are out there for a budget of <$700.  IF you have any recommendations could you please let me know.
Thanks.

Re: Warmer Headphone Amp to use with RME ADI-2 Dac

Labeling THX AAA amps as "bright" is gross misnomer, they are one of the most neutral and detailed amps available, other amps you listed have exactly the same signature just less details, especially Audio GD.
What you're looking for is probably a tube amp, Zeos (z-reviews) has reviewed a lot of them, check his youtube channel, Alternatively you can get THX AAA amp and add tube buffer between it and rme.

Re: Warmer Headphone Amp to use with RME ADI-2 Dac

I am sorry, I did not mean to ask for a competitor to RMA, I really like the DAC part of it.  I was hoping for a complementary product to the RME.

4 (edited by Curt962 2020-05-24 21:45:59)

Re: Warmer Headphone Amp to use with RME ADI-2 Dac

Zeus,

As it seems a "stylized" sound is your preference,  do note that your ADI-2 DAC has Tone, and PEQ functions!   If something sounds bright/dull...simply use the included functions to season your sound just the way you like!   

Tubes are fun!   But...that's all. (Noise, and Distortion are the reason)

Enjoy your RME minus the BS.  You'll love it!

Best!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

5 (edited by KaiS 2020-05-24 22:47:53)

Re: Warmer Headphone Amp to use with RME ADI-2 Dac

Zeus+Leto wrote:

...
I have been looking for a warmer headphone amp...

... IF you have any recommendations could you please let me know.
Thanks.

Have you tried the different options in the DA-filter settings?
Those might make a bigger difference than another amp.

See manual page 21 and 57, but just listen, don't look at the curves before hearing.
Take notes what you like about each filter.



Next:
Try the Polarity / Both- vs. Off-setting (manual page 21).
Depending on the headphone it can make a big difference in the bass reproduction.

I know, it shouldn't make any difference at all, as humans are said not to be able to hear the absolute phase.
In fact, as it's so easy to try, I found that it makes a significant difference.

As recording engineer I know that we are usually doing the same kind of polarity settings for certain instruments.
Most common e.g, the bass drum's first pulse goes positive with most used microphone techniques.

6 (edited by rado 2020-05-25 09:42:20)

Re: Warmer Headphone Amp to use with RME ADI-2 Dac

I just sold brilliant HeadAmp Gilmore Lite Mk2 Class-A Headphone Amplifier (pretty similar to Rupert Neve you are considering) because with ADI-2 Pro I had no use for it... Consider using EQ, even multiple profiles, to match your needs. smile

7 (edited by ezra-s 2020-05-25 18:01:48)

Re: Warmer Headphone Amp to use with RME ADI-2 Dac

I'd like this chance to remind, the RME is a swiss knife and everyone has a different taste.. so, since we are on it, why not try to take advantage of the so many options in this device?

So in my most humble and ignorant opinion once you get the signal as transparently as possible from the source (this DAC does that and I think it also does that in the headphone amp section), and once the headphone amp is as "powerful" as you may need for all sorts of headphones.. all that it takes for you to adjust to your needs are the:

* Parametric EQ
+
* Bass / Treble section.
+
* Loudness to adjust bass/treble at diferent volumes.

And save setting for each headphones... no?

--

One example, one day a friend and I went shopping to a hifi store which had a headphone amp and lots and lots of good/better/awesome headphones to try.

Each time we were using the same device, just trying different headphones... the AKG sounded flat, the Grado sounded "complete", the Sennheiser HDxxxx sounded warm, the Focal Clear sounded extremely detailed and so on... Also my friend prefers a more superflat sound and I like precise but still a bit more "bassy".
TLDR: different headphones, different sound,  different tastests.. one transparent powerful dac+amp to rule them all! smile

Re: Warmer Headphone Amp to use with RME ADI-2 Dac

Sebastian.Athea wrote:

I do enjoy neutrality since we're on topic of headphones I had Audio GD which I replaced with THX AAA 789 amp, but there is no denying the fact that RME's built in head amp isn't the best, and treble fails apart on some phones resulting in poor imaging in best case scenario, and it's not just me, there are multiple reviewers that confirmed it including inner fidelity, and adding an external head amp even an midrange one to your setup will improve performance, that however does not diminish ADI DAC-2 fs performance as world class dac.
On the other topic, sound is subjective and if someone asks how to get specific flavor that they want, I don't see a reason to treat them like crap, especially when they already bought RME product and are asking what to pair with it to make sound more to heir liking.

There are multiple reviewers who say Audioquest Ethernet cable sounds great, and that an audiograde powerstrip is mandatory big_smile

That being said, I don't often listen to headphones (I own an AKG K701) and the ADI-2 DAC is far better than any other headphones output I have owned (on my integrated amps or CD player). But I haven't tried a dedicated amp, I will some day...

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

9 (edited by Curt962 2020-05-26 01:38:13)

Re: Warmer Headphone Amp to use with RME ADI-2 Dac

Yawn....Zzzzzzz

We all need to be careful with this "Neutrality" BS.   In reality, We audio types don't have the faintest idea of what the Performer ACTUALLY sounded like in the Recording,.Mixing, Mastering Sessions.   We tend to rely more upon dreamy "HiFi" ideals" that quite likely never truly existed.  Have you ever listened to a Steely Dan Album?  smile 

Chocolatey Vocals...Honey-Like Strings..., etc. it's all Bull, and just ONCE in front of Live, Unamplified Music would convince you of this.   How few seem to be aware that the SAME instrument can sound suprisingly different in the hands of two different musicians, yet they're BOTH right.  Now what?   An Audiophile Dichotomy!  smile

Which device makes the Musicians sound more like I WISH they did??   Does anyone else see the lunacy of this?  Using a similar Logic, it seems any of us could be a World Class Violinist by merely OWNING a Stradivarius! 

RME does it's part to cut through the nonsense by striving for a device that simply outputs a very linear facsimile of it's input.  Nothing more or less.   

It could be that if your Trebles "fall apart" you are realizing for the first time ever that the "Hi-Hat", and Snare Drum in your records were in fact created by Noise Gates...not an actual drum kit.  Surprise!!! 

So there's my take on the nonsense.  It took me a LONG time, and MANY foolishly spent dollars to arrive at these views.

https://i.ibb.co/Yyy4Nf8/rod16.gif

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

10 (edited by Sebastian.Athea 2020-05-26 01:44:46)

Re: Warmer Headphone Amp to use with RME ADI-2 Dac

Curt962 wrote:

Yawn....Zzzzzzz

We all need to be careful with this "Neutrality" BS.   In reality, We audio types don't have the faintest idea of what the Performer ACTUALLY sounded like in the Recording,.Mixing, Mastering Sessions.   We tend to rely more upon dreamy "HiFi" ideals" that quite likely never truly existed. 

Chocolatey Vocals...Honey-Like Strings..., etc. it's all Bull, and just ONCE in front of Live, Unamplified Music would convince you of this.   How few seem to be aware that the SAME instrument can sound suprisingly different in the hands of two different musicians.  They're BOTH right.  Now what?   An Audiophile Dichotomy!  smile

Which device makes the Musicians sound more like I WISH they did??   Does anyone else see the lunacy of this?  Using a similar Logic, it seems any of us could be a World Class Violinist by merely OWNING a Stradivarius! 

RME does it's part to cut the nonsense by striving for a device that outputs a very linear facsimile of it's input.  Nothing more or less.   

It could be that if your Trebles "fall apart" you are realizing for the first time ever that the "Hi-Hat", and Snare Drum in your records were in fact created by Noise Gates...not an actual drum kit.  Surprise!!! 

So there's my take on the nonsense.  It took me a LONG time to arrive at these views.

Curt

I play the guitar (acoustic and electric) and even tough I mostly work with old masters meant for tv aka "demastering" I attempt to remove compressors and other crap meant to play nice with tvs from 90s-80s give soundtracks more dynamic range, clean them up etc. etc. to make them more suitable for bluray release. I also do a bit of recording mostly for small (usually for youtube) projects.
So when I say "treble fails apart on some phones" I think I know what I'm talking about, note that I said "some headphones" as IEMs and very efficient phones seem to be just fine, but if you plug in Focal Elear something seems off, but not by much, plug in LCD-4 and it's just nope.
It is what it is, I do think RME ADI2 DAC is not only one of the best dacs but preamps you can buy as well; I have more value in audio gear than most people in cars but it's ok because it's for "work" gigiddy, you can take it or leave it though it's just my opinion.

Re: Warmer Headphone Amp to use with RME ADI-2 Dac

Sebastian.Athea wrote:

I play the guitar (acoustic and electric) and even tough I mostly work with old masters meant for tv aka "demastering" I attempt to remove compressors and other crap meant to play nice with tvs from 90s-80s give soundtracks more dynamic range, clean them up etc. etc. to make them more suitable for bluray release. I also do a bit of recording mostly for small (usually for youtube) projects.
So when I say "treble fails apart on some phones" I think I know what I'm talking about, note that I said "some headphones" as IEMs and very efficient phones seem to be just fine, but if you plug in Focal Elear something seems off, but not by much, plug in LCD-4 and it's just nope.
It is what it is, I do think RME ADI2 DAC is not only one of the best dacs but preamps you can buy as well; I have more value in audio gear than most people in cars but it's ok because it's for "work" gigiddy, you can take it or leave it though it's just my opinion.

There is a whole world between "very efficient phones" and LCD-4 big_smile

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

Re: Warmer Headphone Amp to use with RME ADI-2 Dac

Curt962 wrote:

Ja Ok...

But we're still debating HiFi Baloney, and YouTube "listeners" (with a measured attention span of 2.5 seconds)   

Sebastian, treat yourself to a Local Performance.  Live,.Unamplified.  Often Free!!    It really cuts through the Grease, and Grime of HiFi Ridiculousness.    HEAR a Cello, or a Choir from Arms Length.   Amazing, and SO "Un-Hifi"     Absent the effects, Some might even think Boring!

Even the Girl with a Guitar in the Hotel Lobby...   Boring as hell when you're sitting right there...(depending on the Girl!) but Audiophiles would pay ANY Price for a DSD Copy of that!.  big_smile. (just to see the DSD Light come on)

It's all BS

This is where mein Koffer ist verpackt!

Nicht mehr!!

Tschuß!

Curt

Dude I play the guitar, I record people playing and singing, and don't crap on youtube artists; a lot of them sell their music in lossless on bandcamp and a lot of them have their music mastered better than big names like Sabaton, and not just because I mastered it https://youtu.be/5fkOtxzHOrM (for discussion I didn't work on this one)
Also "hi res" (like audio had resolution ffs) audio is important for recording, but once you mastered it anything above 48/16 is undetectable by human ears assuming your dac has properly set up filters (and accurate clock if it's delta-sigma or multibit).

13

Re: Warmer Headphone Amp to use with RME ADI-2 Dac

I tried to clean up this unfortunate thread as good as possible. Please everyone stay on topic.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Warmer Headphone Amp to use with RME ADI-2 Dac

MC wrote:

I tried to clean up this unfortunate thread as good as possible. Please everyone stay on topic.

Thank you

Re: Warmer Headphone Amp to use with RME ADI-2 Dac

Hello, Zeus,

Headphone out of the RME is one of the best you can find on a DAC.

I use the Bryston BHA-1 with RME ADI 2 DAC Fs. Headphones (Sennheiser HD800 & Beyerdynamic DT990)
In my opinion it sounds slightly more open and natural in the présentation than the direct headphone out of the card.
This is when using XLR input on the Bryston and its clearly perceptible.

I'm wondering if the problem is not the Hifiman being naturally bright (maybe a change of the pads could help)
You have plenty of equalization possible with the RME and considering the price of a good headphone amp you should try some adjustments before purchasing.
I listened recently to the Hifiman Arya on my setup and it was very good. No experience with the Ananda. And the fostex sound have too much bass for me (I tried a TH900 on the Bryston)
If you go that way I will recommend something like Bryston or Violectric HPA V281.

Best regards

RME ADI 2 DAC Fs

Re: Warmer Headphone Amp to use with RME ADI-2 Dac

I use the ADI-2 DAC exclusively with headphones. It has a remarkable amount of customization. I recently purchased Beyerdynamic DT 1990 Pro headphones, which are known for having some pronounced treble peaks. I used the Parametric EQ to tame those peaks, and the result is really very pleasing (to my ears). I found the suggested PEQ adjustments on the web, and you can find similar adjustments for many other headphones. The ADI-2 allows you to save PEQ settings separately for different headphones. I also used the DAC's setting for cross-feed, which provides some subtle adjustments to soundstage. I would experiment with all of this before spending money on a separate amp.

17 (edited by Anters 2020-06-15 02:20:37)

Re: Warmer Headphone Amp to use with RME ADI-2 Dac

Have you looked into trying different cables on your headphones and USB connection?  I'm using Hifiman Arya's with an ADI-2 Pro FS and discovered that my standard computer USB cable with built-in ferrite bead was strangling the sound.  When I swapped it out for a Supra USB 2.0 everything became warmer and richer.

Perhaps ask a good dealer about headphone cable options and he/she should be able to direct you to 'warmer' cables and might allow you try them out in the shop.

18 (edited by Sebastian.Athea 2020-06-15 03:10:25)

Re: Warmer Headphone Amp to use with RME ADI-2 Dac

Anters wrote:

Have you looked into trying different cables on your headphones and USB connection?  I'm using Hifiman Arya's with an ADI-2 Pro FS and discovered that my standard computer USB cable with built-in ferrite bead was strangling the sound.  When I swapped it out for a Supra USB 2.0 everything became warmer and richer.

Perhaps ask a good dealer about headphone cable options and he/she should be able to direct you to 'warmer' cables and might allow you try them out in the shop.

Holy crap dude changing usb cable made your headphones warmer (mind blown), only thing that can occur with usb is noise, I did notice that with some of my other dacs but not with rme, and if you have that issue, it's solved with so called "usb decrapifiers" which are basically power filters, not cables.
And as an engineer using headphone cables to add warmth destroys my mind, although possible those cables would have to be built out of spec with inductors and/or capacitors inside them, that's a crime against nature and science, just thinking about it makes me shiver, yuck!

Re: Warmer Headphone Amp to use with RME ADI-2 Dac

Sebastian.Athea wrote:
Anters wrote:

Have you looked into trying different cables on your headphones and USB connection?  I'm using Hifiman Arya's with an ADI-2 Pro FS and discovered that my standard computer USB cable with built-in ferrite bead was strangling the sound.  When I swapped it out for a Supra USB 2.0 everything became warmer and richer.

Perhaps ask a good dealer about headphone cable options and he/she should be able to direct you to 'warmer' cables and might allow you try them out in the shop.

Holy crap dude changing usb cable made your headphones warmer (mind blown), only thing that can occur with usb is noise, I did notice that with some of my other dacs but not with rme, and if you have that issue, it's solved with so called "usb decrapifiers" which are basically power filters, not cables.
And as an engineer using headphone cables to add warmth destroys my mind, although possible those cables would have to be built out of spec with inductors and/or capacitors inside them, that's a crime against nature and science, just thinking about it makes me shiver, yuck!

And even with those components, the "cable sound" wouldn't have been changed, as it is not audio signal in a USB cable, but data...

I've tried to print a sad letter with a cheerful color USB cable, the printed letter was still sad... sad

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

Re: Warmer Headphone Amp to use with RME ADI-2 Dac

I like to use tube amps sometimes for added color. I've gone through many and the best bang for the buck I know of is the Garage1217 Project Sunrise III.

There's nothing out there that I prefer below about $1000 (using a linear power supply because the SMPS makes it slightly noisy).

21 (edited by Sebastian.Athea 2020-06-15 13:38:11)

Re: Warmer Headphone Amp to use with RME ADI-2 Dac

Luckbad wrote:

I like to use tube amps sometimes for added color. I've gone through many and the best bang for the buck I know of is the Garage1217 Project Sunrise III.

There's nothing out there that I prefer below about $1000 (using a linear power supply because the SMPS makes it slightly noisy).

I love DarkVoice, does everything tube amp should aka makes low quality audio sound listenable and it's <300$, I use it for playing retro games.
If you just want more warmth learn how to use the eq on your RME

Re: Warmer Headphone Amp to use with RME ADI-2 Dac

I use a Woo Audio WA-6. My headphones are Sennheiser HD-650.