Topic: KEMPER guitar rack and FF400

Are there any KEMPER owners here using SPDIF in and out?  IF SO, do you have your TOTAL MIX HARDWARE INPUT SPDIF set to LEFT and RIGHT and hard panned respectively?

2 (edited by ramses 2020-06-07 15:44:10)

Re: KEMPER guitar rack and FF400

You can answer this question easily yourself by observing a few things

1. Reset TM FX and see how the defaults are...
True mono channels like Mic inputs are at center position.
Two input channels for stereo like e.g. AN1 and AN2 are hard panned to the left and to the right.

2. Playback a stereo signal
Change the SW Playback channels from Stereo to Mono.
You hear still stereo sound, you see the two mono channels are panned hard left and right.
Now bring the left channel to Center position, then the right channel.
Sounds pretty much like mono.

From this you can deduce the settings for SPDIF, which is also a stereo signal...
So yes, you have to pan the two SPDIF channels hard left and right to keep stereo characteristic for your TM FX submix.

For recording this has no effect, as audio through the HW inputs is always passed through to the DAW unmodified.

Does this help ? Otherwise please tell a bit more about the background of your question.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

3 (edited by nateandrews 2020-06-07 18:31:57)

Re: KEMPER guitar rack and FF400

Hi Ramses.  For fun, I did OPTIONS / RESET / TOTAL RESET (saved my main stuff first of course).  And the default after reset has everything right in the middle for pan.  None of the channels hard set themselves to LEFT and RIGHT.  Here is what my TM looks like in the totally fresh state with the AN5/6 "opened" so you can see it is STEREO with Wdith 100 but is a "shared" group and not hard panned.

https://ibb.co/TMcRFZM

Re: KEMPER guitar rack and FF400

A total reset does not perform ADM settings (inputs mono, outputs stereo).

After a total reset you see e.g. the inputs as stereo: AN1/2, AN3/4 and so on.
There you see the panning in the center position.

Now after a "Total Reset" chose the ADM preset, then you have Mono Channels on Inputs,
then you see AN1, AN2, AN3, AN4 and so on panned to "left", "right", "left", "right"

But this is only to put an example. How you want to make your submix is your business.
But usually a Mono Input you want to hear on a stereo output in the center, right ?
And if not .. pan it left and right as you want.

Now you have a stereo signal (AN1/2) and in TM FX you have set these two channels to be "stereo".
Then you also need to use the center position.

But it could also the case, that you have a stereo signal on AN1/2 but you configured these two channels in TM FX
to be two MONO channels. In this case you need to pan AN1 to the left and AN2 to the right to get the true stereo signal...

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: KEMPER guitar rack and FF400

What and where is this "ADM" preset of which you speak?

Re: KEMPER guitar rack and FF400

https://www.dropbox.com/s/udxqw24hh1yfchw/2020-06-07%2021_27_18-TMFX%20ADM.jpg?dl=1

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: KEMPER guitar rack and FF400

WOW sure enough, there it is right there. doh! 

OK so did the "ADM" and it made my single SPDIF stereo hardware input to show as SPDIF L and SPDIF R, but it kept the PAN in the middle on each.

Re: KEMPER guitar rack and FF400

I also wanted to ask, since you are such a freaking wizard at all things RME, where is the explanation of what the "CH" names translate to?  I refer to when pushing IN on the silver spinner knob and the green dot moves from LEV to CH, I see
L.1 L.3 L.5
PH
SP
A.1 A.3 A.5 A.7
i.1 i.2 i.3 i.4

My guess is L.1 L.3 L.5 are the ANALOG LINE OUT 1,2  3,4  5,6?  Why does it stop at L.5 and where is the 7/8?
PH must be PHONE
SP is SPDIF?
The A's are ADAT?
The i.1 is analog INPUT 1?

9 (edited by ramses 2020-06-07 21:22:59)

Re: KEMPER guitar rack and FF400

I am no wizard, I simply read the manuals wink and some guesswork.

I do not own a FF400, but am pretty sure its documented or you can deduce it from manual and product pictures.

Yes the analog outputs stop at AN 5/6, this you can also see at the back of the device.
But .. Phones are also analog outputs, I would guess your analog output 7/8 is "phones L/R".

The webpage tells its an 18 channel in / out interface ... thats not so difficult to get input and output ports identified:
RME starts counting with analog ports and chapter 9.2 of the manual shows you the order, so you have:

       Inputs                 Outputs
01  Mic/Inst  (front)    Line (back)
02  Mic/Inst  (front)    Line
03  Inst/Line (front)   Line
04  Inst/Line (front)   Line
05  Line         (back)   Line
06  Line         (back)   Line
07  Line         (back)   Phones (front)
08  Line         (back)   Phones (front)
09  SPDIF       (back)  SPDIF (back)
10  SPDIF       (back)  SPDIF (back)
11  ADAT 1      (back) ADAT 1 (back)
12  ...
13  ...
14  ...
15  ...
16  ...
17  ...
18 ADAT 8                 ADAT 8

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: KEMPER guitar rack and FF400

thanks!  got it sorted!  I think I will use my ear to best decide how I want the SPDIF stup to be from the KEMPER, stereo with one little strip in teh totalmix or set to L and R each hard panned.  I record dry gutiars a lot as DI but like to hear all the grease in stereo.  i am about to make another topic about two monitors!  thanks!!!

Re: KEMPER guitar rack and FF400

Kempers SPDIF output is stereo ... so depending on whether the input channels are mono or stereo
use either center or hard panned left right. Something in between makes no sense to me.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: KEMPER guitar rack and FF400

I did some ear testing and am not able to hear a diff between one "strip" of the SPDIF as stereo vs making a separate hard panned SPDIF L and SPDIF R.    I love the Kemper and the FF440, what a great pair.  Now if I could only figure out how to not make the FF400 crackle and pop when the Kemper boots up!

Re: KEMPER guitar rack and FF400

> am not able to hear a diff between one "strip" of the SPDIF as stereo vs making a separate hard panned SPDIF L and SPDIF R

Thats what I meant .. its clear that you need to hard pan mono channels L and R to get back a true stereo signal.
Maybe we had a misunderstanding, but thats basically what I meant with "you will hear" whats right and wrong.
So by hearing and experimenting for a little while I thought you can answer to yourself in what cases you need this or that (center vs hard panned).

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: KEMPER guitar rack and FF400

Aye.  The only benefit of doing a hard pan SPDIF L and R is that the Kemper is so amazing with what it can do, that the SPDIF can send DI out the left of spdif and any number of stack/wet/tones out of right side.  So I could mute right and hear only the DI coming back.  What I plan to do next is get a dedicated DI box and try out the FF400 XLR input 1 as MIC level from my Di feed.  I am ordering COUNTRYMAN TYPE 85.