51 (edited by KaiS 2020-09-26 19:42:42)

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

zen195345 wrote:

... have also stood the speakers on about a half inch book - seems to have helped a bit. I was thinking of sitting them on a piece of insulation board ( The type they put between walls in buildings ) a good idea you think or too much height, about 1.5 inches.

If the floor isn't thick concrete, e.g. wood, decoupling the speakers could help a very little in the bass by isolating vibration transfer.

But this is not what I meant.
I meant placing them about one foot high on some building blocks (my favorite), or any other pedestal.

This has to be tried and is not necessarily an improvement (quite often it is), it even depends on the radiation characteristics of the speakers.

52 (edited by zen195345 2020-09-26 19:55:30)

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Hi KaiS,

Surely as they are tower speakers - this would not apply as obviously the tweeters would be way to high from the floor. My floor is concrete with currently a thin carpet on it - hence the rug on the way. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you? Plus of course the damping areas would need to be re marked as they would be different due to the change in height of the speakers.

Mark

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

For the moment - leave them as they are.
Best to do one step after the other, and damping the reflections likely does the job.

54 (edited by Curt962 2020-09-27 00:15:13)

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Hey Mark!  Travel Day for me today (Surprise Room Inspections)  I didn't see my notifications of action here. 

Let's address the Treble issues first.  I'm afraid that chasing TOO many Rabbits at once will quickly become frustrating to you.

When the Trebles are satisfactory to you, then we can discuss the matter relating to "Should we Decouple, or should we not"   The Contruction of your room plays a role in that. 

One Mountain at a Time! 

That Said...

Great to see that your expending the energy, and funds to address the Treble matter in the proper way.

Good on Ya Mate!! 

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

55 (edited by Curt962 2020-09-27 00:53:18)

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

zen195345 wrote:

Curt - those coloured panels look fab - will cover mine when I get them.

Cheers

Mark

Mark, 

It's not my idea, but in my Travels, I am seeing the most visually attractive Sound Control methods being used increasingly in  Restaurants!!   Thus, what "appears" to be "Art" are actually Sound Absorbtive Panels arranged in a Clever fashion which in turn reduce "Clatter, etc" from the room.  The result is improved Speech Intelligence, etc.  Ie:  an Improved Dining Experience.  It doesn't stop there.  Sporting Venues, etc take great steps to improve your experience in this regard. 

This entire discussion is more far-reaching than some silly Audiophile thing.   Sound Control has lots of Science to support it.

Cool!!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

56 (edited by KaiS 2020-09-29 08:13:22)

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Curt962 wrote:

... matter relating to "Should we Decouple, or should we not"

For others reading along here:

Speakers Mechanical Vibration Decoupling,
e.g. reduction of vibration transfer from speaker housing to it's standing surface plays a very minor role in sound quality, except if a speaker stands on something that is prone to vibrate, like a shelf.

Don't buy into solutions with "special material" spikes and the like - you can find the strangest stuff in this regard, the stranger the more expensive - is all snake oil!

If needed:
• Some pieces of felt (see your hardware store) or other semi-soft materials basicly do the job.
Bubble Wrap works extremly well for mechanical decoupling vibration of a speaker from it's stand space, costs nothing!
Bubble size has no influence on the amount of decoupling, the speaker literally rests "on air".
The small bubble size versions give the best stability.

-----------------------

The real problem with most floor standing speakers is, the woofers are in an unfavorable low position, 30-60cm above the floor.
This creates a strong floor reflection with almost 100% the same level as the direct signal.

The travel paths "woofer to ear" and "woofer to floor to ear" are typically ca. 0.5-1.2ms different.
This creates a partly cancellation between 400 and 1000 Hz in the frequency response. The reflection cannot be damped, because too thick damping material would be needed in this lower freq. range.


The best solution is a "downfiring" woofer - there's only one sound travel path, no cancellation.
Equally good: a multitude of woofers in a vertical array, there's no distict travel path, no cancellation.


With a given speaker changing it's vertical position up can be used to "tune" the cancellation to correct the frequency response.

An audio analyser is needed to do this properly.
Look here:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 31#p158831

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Mark!

I remain fixated on the matter at hand.  Splashy Trebles should be a reasonably easy task to correct with the suggestions provided thus far.  You WILL WIN that Challenge!

When I mention "decoupling"...I'm referring to Mechanical Decoupling.  Such as that which inhibits energy transfer from your Quite Large Speakers, into the structure (room) in which it exists.  From considerable experience in the matter of "freaking out the room"...I believe that right now,  your efforts are far better directed in the direction you are going already (Trebles)

In the absence of Hard, Cold Test Data...everything else is guesswork, and suppositions.

Don't forget!  SVS has an amazing support team!!   I mean...REALLY SOLID Engineers!  They'll Coach you by the Hand.   Great Folks they are.

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Curt, I edited my posting above to make this more clear.
Sometimes I take things for granted that aren't.

59 (edited by Curt962 2020-09-27 20:19:10)

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Kein Probleme Kai!

Lassen wir alles Spaß machen!  smile

Curt

It makes me happy that we can agree on the significance of the Room/Speaker/Listener interface! 

So IMPORTANT!

Have Fun everyone! 

Were I to have only ONE WISH..it would be for us here to be a useful resource for so many others.

Thanks Mark!  Your Query triggered yet another very useful Discussion!

My Goodness!  Some of us here simply THRILL to a Good, Old Fashioned "Room/Speaker" Whodunnit!!!  smile  smile

Thanks Mark!   We needed you here.

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Curt962 wrote:

Kein Probleme Kai!

Lassen wir alles Spaß machen!  smile

Curt

It makes me happy that we can agree on the significance of the Room/Speaker/Listener interface! 

So IMPORTANT!

Have Fun everyone! 

Were I to have only ONE WISH..it would be for us here to be a useful resource for so many others.

Thanks Mark!  Your Query triggered yet another very useful Discussion!

My Goodness!  Some of us here simply THRILL to a Good, Old Fashioned "Room/Speaker" Whodunnit!!!  smile  smile

Thanks Mark!   We needed you here.

Curt

I am very glad to be here - and I am learning lots as I go along. I can't wait for my rug, and the panels to arrive so I can really start to get to grips with improving my sound. If this thread is/has been useful to others on here as well - that's a win win as far as I am concerned. I know I have asked a lot of questions, some may appear to even be silly - but I like to get things right, that's why I ask those who know.

Could not have done any of this without you guys on here - you are all a great asset. and who knows in time I may be as well. The journey continues......

Mark

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Mark,

Let's ask, "How does an Ant eat an Elephant?"   

One Bite at a Time.  smile

If we approach your room (or any other) with patience, we'll get there!!

We're just as excited as You!!

Best,

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Cheers Curt - the excitement mounts. smile

Mark

63 (edited by Curt962 2020-09-29 00:21:25)

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Mark,

For many of us, "Room Tuning" is an incremental process spread out over a period of time owing to budget constraints, etc.   Don't feel you MUST change everything overnight.  If you can afford to??    LETS GO FOR IT!

Right now, Splashy Trebles are the issues at hand.  Your steps thus far will help alleviate that to some degree.  The Science supports the discussion we've had thus far. 

With some Measured Data in your Room, we can then have a view of the Big Picture, and see what's going on from Top to Bottom.   Your 13ft SQUARE room will likely be problematic at 43hz!   You have Length, and Width Modal Resonance at the SAME FREQUENCY based on the Math.   That's going to be fun!   A 10-12db peak at that Freq would not surprise me.  Hint:  Keep your Room Corners clear.  Anticipate Trapping those Corners, Floor to Ceiling (all 4) in the near Future.  A 26ft Wavelength is not affected by 2 inches of Foam.   (A bit like throwing a Tea Towel in front of a Speeding Truck) 

We'll need to use a more Tailored system for the corners.

That's a Battle for another day, but it's coming. smile

Forewarned is Forearmed, but don't fear.  This entire matter has Volumes of Science to support it, AND the suggestions I will make when you have Data in hand.     You'll Win!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

64 (edited by KaiS 2020-09-29 08:40:42)

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

I've added some information in my posting about:
Speaker's Mechanical Vibration Decoupling,

for those interested:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 32#p159332

65 (edited by Curt962 2020-09-30 03:31:23)

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

There is a Myriad of ideas on Speaker Decoupling.  Tennis Balls split in Half, etc...

Tongue in Cheek (somewhat) I've often wondered how an Inner Tube from a Child's Bicycle tire would work.  Breakdowns/Malfunctions would me minimal, and Worst Case?  Your Listening might be interupted by one Speaker or the other having a "Flat"  smile:):)

"Margaret!!  Get me the Tire Pump!!  The Left Channel has a Slow Leak!!"

One can only Wonder.


On a more serious note (Mark, and others) One might ask "why is any of this of concern?"

Energy Transfer.   (Speaker to Structure) Apartment Dwellers may suffer complaints from neighbors.  Or?  In my Single Family house in Farmland, USA...vibrating EVERYTHING.  Dishes, Picture Frames, etc, et al.

My Weapons-Grade SVS Subs were really good at that. smile

I dropped the $$ on the SVS "Iso-Path" add on Feet, and put an end to it all.

Mark?  If you think your House is shaking to pieces?  Talk to SVS.   Chances are, you'll talk to your Speakers Designer.  Those Guys know their Science!!   Else, a far less financially abusive means of decoupling is fine. 

Gosh.  I really miss the surprise "Pop Quizzes" from my Subs Designer.  (Ed Mullen University)  "What happens When Wavelength...blah blah..?"  I felt so lucky to have such Talent, and Knowledge Coaching me along.

Just Reminiscing,
Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

66 (edited by KaiS 2020-09-30 06:53:16)

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Curt962 wrote:

I dropped the $$ on the SVS "Iso-Path" add on Feet, and put an end to it all.

These iso feet and their price look reasonable.

Just keep in mind: if you have a down firing subwoofer the distance to the floor should not be changed, because the air coupling gap is part of the design equation.

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Thanks for the heads up guys - will look at svs site etc.
Mark

Ps Rug is supposed to be delivered today - I hope.

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Mark!

The Air is Crackling with anticipation!   

I'm very much looking forward to this first step, and your Review!    Your RME is begging to be heard.

Enjoy!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Hi All,

I hope you have all been sitting on the edge of your seats awaiting an update on progress - well here it is. First off let me get a small negative out of the way - rug was supposed to be delivered yesterday, but now will be here tomorrow. Had to go out this afternoon, but on return home discovered a nice big box of Bassotec panels. Hurrah I thought - to work.

I remembered somebody said they should be mounted with a small gap - so clever me thought I have some padded double sided tape, that will do nicely - nope, would not hold. I ended up using the spray on adhesive, but all fitted fine.

I have always believed that when it comes to listening to music on a Hi-Fi system that if it resolves the tones of a piano correctly - then you are not too far off, and everything else should fall in to place, and then you can tune further to your taste or not.

So keen to listen to the results of my efforts i dug out some Beethoven piano sonatas that I know well, and unless my ears deceive me or I have fallen for the placebo effect the results have been astonishing:-

Upper mids are now much clearer, and better defined - wasn't expecting that, a bonus.
Treble now sounds much more musical - was worried they would over damp, but no - the highest highs are still fully there, but just sweeter.
Overall the sound has become more musical, and balanced over the whole spectrum - so it would seem to me. One effect of the change I did not expect was more clarity in the quieter bass parts - another bonus I think, or me imagining things.

Overall I am now able to listen to my music without it being fatiguing to anywhere near the same as before. I am now wondering whether the rug may be overkill - but will find out tomorrow. I am at this point very happy with improvements, and I hope I can eek out that last little bit with further improvements - thanks to all your excellent help on here.

Forgot to mention - I am at the moment listening without any adjustments (Flat) which I certainly could not do before. Hurrah.

Please feel free to chime in with comments. One last question for you all. which gives the better sound/more musical between optical cable/coax interconnects?

Mark big_smile

70 (edited by KaiS 2020-10-02 07:26:49)

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

I am glad the efforts turned out to be nice for you!


From my perspective as a recording engineer with several decades of experience:
Piano is a good reference on one side, because the relatively steady tones tend to sound annoyingly resonant if something's wrong with the room acoustics.

On the other hand piano is not a good source to check for sound balance, because every piano, every pianist and every recording sounds different.
There is no 1:1 recording of a piano.


For classical music, orchestral string enssembles are the most demanding for natural colors.
Finally, one has to use various recordings to evaluate if everything is correct.

Over the time, listening to a wide variety of different recordings you will find that even there are recordings that are simply not well made, then that's nothing to blame on you setup.
It's simply, the closer you come to a good acoustics, with good loudspeakers, the more different various recordings will sound.
Bad acoustics tend to wash all into the same bath.


If you want to have fun, you can try to find out which digital connection sounds better.
Once you found that one or the other sounds superior you have been caught in the placebo trap.
You just have to read about it before doing so to gain a little of pre-justice and placebo will work out fine.


In fact, every digital connection sounds exactlythe same as long as the transfer of data is uncompromised, and the device at the receiver side has a proper reclocking, which is 100% the case with the RME  stuff.

The bits don't care about going through copper, silver, gold, plastic or glass fiber or air, they just stay zeros and ones.
If there are errors they are clearly audible, as cracks.
Nothing can make the ones and zeros per se more musical.


Have a nice time enjoying your newly gained fidelity!

71 (edited by Curt962 2020-10-02 02:36:55)

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Mark,

This is Wonderful!!  I'm so happy you've had your Success!!  No!  The Rug will not be overkill, but rather a bit of refinement to an already improving situation!

Let your new RME shine!!  Your Music Collection will be more enjoyable than ever!

Best for You!  Mate, Im happy.  The Room is EVERYTHING.  The Better the Room...the Better the Sound. 

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Kais, and Curt,

Thank you both so much for helping me on this journey, I could not have done it without you. I am so pleased that the results thus far have worked out so well. Music is important to me, even more so in the strange times we all find ourselves living in these days.

Will let you guys know how the rug goes too. I hope this thread has been helpful to others on here - as always it is a learning curve.

Cheers

Mark

73 (edited by Curt962 2020-10-03 00:24:32)

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Mark,

I think this calls for a Celebratory Pint (or 3)   don't you?  smile  smile

Cheers Mate!  You earned it.

Curt

PS:  Join us Sunday for "Biscuits and Bach" at www.wdav.org  No Geo-Blocking

Wonderful Program that Airs at 0700 In the Eastern US.  Approx 1200 in the UK.

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

74 (edited by zen195345 2020-10-05 17:41:40)

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Hi All,

Hope you are all well. As promised I can confirm the rug has now arrived, and made further improvements I feel. I think it is a case now of perhaps checking with the software to get suggestions for equaliser settings.

I would like to ask for guidance/explanation of boost/cut - these two are obvious, but I am not sure completely about the three settings you can adjust, and how specifically it changes the sound musically if you see what I mean. As far as I understand:-

Gain - more gain - makes whatever band you are adjusting louder etc and cutting is the opposite, sure there is more to it.

Frequency - Make the frequency higher or lower i.e more or less bass/ treble etc.

Q - width of the adjustment you are making - higher number = narrower adjustment - spike if you like, whereas lower number is more of a wider curve? and affects over a wider area of whatever you are adjusting.

Phew there seems to be so much to all of this - but from what I have learned already - it is well worth the effort.

Please can you knowledgeable people on here explain this to me in simple terms so that I know more of what I am doinf when making the finite last adjustments to suit my hearing/ room etc.

Hope all this makes sense - let me know please.

Cheers

Mark

75 (edited by Curt962 2020-10-05 18:56:21)

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Hi Mark!

It seems like you have the basic functions of the PEQ well in hand.

I would like to encourage you to obtain some ACTUAL Measured Freq. Response Data in your Room, AT the Listening Position.  Without actual data, we would be guilty of "Guessing", and that's probably not the most effective, nor accurate course of action. 

On EQ, Opinions will vary.  smile

In Low Bass frequencies, I think a bit (!!) of High-Q, Very Targeted  EQ can be quite helpful.   Above perhaps 200hz or so, I like to "Paint" if you will, with a MUCH BROADER BRUSH.    Long Story, but trying to EQ the upper freq ranges with Surgical Precision is largely futile.  Headphone Users will have a easier time with than would us Loudspeaker Addicts.  Nonetheless, a bit of Cut/Boost across an entire RANGE of Frequencies is often Spot On to our Ears.   The Bass/Treble encoders on your RME are Wonderful for this.   

EQ in the same manner in which a World Class Chef uses Spices.   Very Subtley.

So...If I've not totally confused you, we're good here!

Keep us informed!!

Have Fun

Curt

There's more to all of this that I believe should be explained to you regarding PEQ.  Specifically, applying large amounts of Boost into a "Null" will quite likely never succeed.  Nulls (Sharp depressions in FR) are caused by Acoustic Interference.  Reflected Energy in the Room is re-combining with the Primary sound Anti-Phase.   This causes a Cancellation at "X" frequency.   If we BOOST "X Freq"...we also boost the Interference for a net gain of Zero.    Thus...the Null lives on, and Story continues...

Talk to Us!

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Hi Curt,
Thank you as always. I will be shortly getting an Iphone to get measurements with the software recommended earlier in this thread.

I will then take some measurements - as you quite rightly say - guessing is no good. At least I think we are there as far as room treatments go - don't think I need a panel behind the listening position now, but I might try one and see. I will be back for advice once I have the measurements. I think I/we have come a long way - wish I could have bought you a pint or 3 Lol.

Mark

77 (edited by Curt962 2020-10-05 19:33:27)

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Mark,

We'll have those Pints someday!!

Back on Topic however, measured Data is essential if we are to assist you in any truly meaningful way.   Good, Fact-Based Guidance is the Mantra of THIS forum.

If you recall...a few posts back, I urged you keep your Room Corners clear!   We're going to need those!!  smile

Yep!  More Money.  Sorry.

My Basic Rule of Thumb, is for one to spend at least 50% of their Speaker's Cost on Room Treatment.    Sorry...but those are the Metrics.

No more than we could expect a Super Exotic High Performance Sports Car to perform optimally on a Bumpy, Muddy, Rock-Strewn Country Road, can we expect our Loudspeakers to perform well in an unprepared Room. This will simply NOT WORK. 

The Room is where the "Rubber meets the Road" 

Have a Great Evening!!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Hope you are all well out there and enjoying your music, and even more you ADi.

Just a little update for you all. A very strange thing has just happened, and I don't know why. Sat down to listen yesterday, and for some reason the system now sounds much more musical than it did before. The most strange thing is that I am now listening at much lower volume setting than I was before. I used to listen at volumes between 0 - -10, but now +30 - twenties. I am using auto ref level as I have always done - but it has changed, and for the better.

Perhaps my sound proofing tiles have run in. Lol. I am certainly not complaining - just surprised, and scratching my heads to understand how or why???

Mark

79 (edited by Curt962 2020-11-03 19:00:23)

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Mark!  wink

Let's be careful.  wink

No Science supports the notion that your Audio Gear underwent any type of Metamorphosis while you Slept.
Acoustic Panels undergo no such change process either.  Audio Gear is perhaps the most Stable factor in the Equation.

PEOPLE however can change overnight!   Could it be that that you're Sleeping better, eating a more nutritious diet, exercising more, or are simply "happier"?   The Science DOES support the notion that Mental/Physical Health influences your perception of the world around you.   This includes Sound.

Ok..."A little help please" in your Original Post has gone as far as we probably should take it yes?   Just saying...  I really have NO Business discussing matters such this a single MM beyond my own, personal experiences. 

Be Well, and Listen Happily

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

80 (edited by zen195345 2020-11-03 20:10:51)

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Hi Curt,

Only posted the above for good news really - nothing more. I am happy though. I hope you are too. smile

81 (edited by KaiS 2020-11-04 00:41:34)

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

The fact that different Volume setting now lead to the -  supposedly - same audio level points to, that something has changed.
Maybe you switched "Loudness" on or anything like that.
Or you just play different songs that have higher mastering level.

Whatever - good that is good smile

82 (edited by Curt962 2020-11-03 23:34:11)

Re: New user of ADI-2 A little help please

Hah!!  Indeed something like that!
Else, when gear magically "improves" overnight, I get rather suspicious.  There are a plethora of ways to do it, and I have observed myself, most begin with errant Keystrokes.   big_smile

https://i.ibb.co/ngKymMq/20201026-073955.jpg

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes