1 Topic by paulnajar (edited by paulnajar 2021-03-11 10:27:11)

  • From: Sydney Australia
  • Registered: 2007-06-09
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Topic: ADI-2 Pro FS BE OSX Driver Development?

Having had the ADI-2 ProFS BE for a few days now I’m happy to report that I am delighted with the sound quality and to a large extent it’s features - except perhaps one area. Dedicated drivers to support it in OSX.

I note the manual states that on Windows the ADI uses your Madiface driver for a round trip latency of 2.9ms @ 44.1khz and 32 sample buffer. Excellent and expected performance from RME.

On OSX however no such driver support exists and instead the ADI uses the OSX built in driver. With the ADI in USB multichannel  mode my own round trip latency tests at 44.1khz and 32 sample buffer deliver 5.78ms. I knew about the driver support before purchase but I must say this RTL is worse than I expected - particularly given the low latency converters in use.

My thinking is that it would be nice to take advantage of the 6/8 channel operation under usb using both the excellent headphone amps as cue sends for performers and main outputs for control room speakers all while using the ADI as part of an aggregate device but with the current RTL performance this is too big a latency penalty to impose across a whole recording system for that to be possible.

I know the ADI-2 Pro FS BE is a quite newly released device so I ask does RME plan to develop a dedicated driver for it under OSX?

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  • ramses
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Re: ADI-2 Pro FS BE OSX Driver Development?

There is a difference between Windows/ASIO and OSX/CoreAudio.

In Windows you have an ASIO driver which completely bypasses the Windows audio stack and directly accesses the hardware through the USB/Fw/... driver.

In the Apple driver model you need to go through CoreAudio which adds this latency.

Its an interesting question, why a direct access is not possible with Apple, but AFAIK there is no other way as of now.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • From: Sydney Australia
  • Registered: 2007-06-09
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Re: ADI-2 Pro FS BE OSX Driver Development?

Thanks for the quick reply Ramses. I didn’t know about those differences so thanks. Still though I wonder why RME offers Madiface driver support under Windows but not OS X?

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4 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-03-11 11:11:26)

  • ramses
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Re: ADI-2 Pro FS BE OSX Driver Development?

I think because its not required under OS X.

The MADIface driver under windows brings usually the following two things
a) ASIO driver support and
b) TM FX if you have a device which supports it (not ADI-2 *)

OSX
- has no ASIO support and
- ADI-2 Pro/DAC have no support for TM FX
thus you do not need the MADIface driver for OS X.

Also under Windows its possible to operate the ADI-2 Pro without the MADIface driver,
then it is being integrated into Windows as Class Compliant device.
But for some things you need the MADIface driver under Win10:
- access through ASIO (PCM, DSD DoP and DSD Native) and add 768 kHz WDM
- DIGIcheck
- to be able to perform a firmware upgrade
- to enable for Multi-channel modus in Windows 10, which is otherwise incomplete as of Win 10 1803

See also manual ch 23:
https://www.rme-audio.de/download/adi2profsr_d.pdf
https://www.rme-audio.de/download/adi2profsr_e.pdf

For OS X check manual ch 27:
The ADI-2 Pro is a UAC 2.0 Class Compliant device. Mac OS X has full UAC support built-in, there is no driver installation required.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • From: Sydney Australia
  • Registered: 2007-06-09
  • Posts: 189

Re: ADI-2 Pro FS BE OSX Driver Development?

Thanks again for your reply Ramses.

Just so I understand, under windows, the ADI can access built in ASIO without using Madiface driver. If working this way will the ADI achieve the same round trip latency as if it is using Madiface driver?

Kind regards

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6 Reply by MC

  • MC
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Re: ADI-2 Pro FS BE OSX Driver Development?

paulnajar wrote:

Just so I understand, under windows, the ADI can access built in ASIO without using Madiface driver.

No. That is Class Compliant mode, and the OS drivers decide what you get then. Here WDM and WASAPI.

paulnajar wrote:

If working this way will the ADI achieve the same round trip latency as if it is using Madiface driver?

Under WDM and WASAPI - yes. Under ASIO (with driver) it might be a bit quicker when your computer allows to use low ASIO buffer sizes.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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  • From: Sydney Australia
  • Registered: 2007-06-09
  • Posts: 189

Re: ADI-2 Pro FS BE OSX Driver Development?

Thanks for the clarification Matthias.

I've just completed round trip latency measurements for the ADI-2 FS BE connected to original UFX via AES on a 2012 Mac Pro which for now is my main studio machine. At 32 sample buffer 44.1Khz I get 3.08ms. About 0.4ms better than the built in converters on UFX.

With ADI in class compliant mode connected via USB and all the same numbers the RTL is 5.78ms

Is there any hope RME will develop a specific USB driver to support the ADI directly on OS X for better round trip latency like in Windows?

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8 Reply by MC

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Re: ADI-2 Pro FS BE OSX Driver Development?

Definitely not. Even more so as Apple is going the opposite route - discouraging and disabling custom drivers.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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  • cyrano
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Re: ADI-2 Pro FS BE OSX Driver Development?

Apple will never get rid of the additional 2,5 msec latency in Core audio. It's what's needed to align stuff like AirPlay and to make it possible to align a YouTube vid with audio to an AirPlay device over the wireless network. Latency in that consumer setup is up to one second.

Doesn't matter at all if you delay the picture at exactly the same second.

Of course, if you're doin' live audio, it's a bit of a pita.

Mind you, I don't get to see many PCs with under 6 msec round-trip time either. It's possible, but requires some tuning.

So, on one hand you have plug, play and don't bitch about it. OTOH, you have lots of possibilities, but lots of work to get it to operate and keep it operating.

Your choice, really. Me, I'm the lazy kind. big_smile

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10 Reply by paulnajar (edited by paulnajar 2021-03-15 10:25:19)

  • From: Sydney Australia
  • Registered: 2007-06-09
  • Posts: 189

Re: ADI-2 Pro FS BE OSX Driver Development?

Thanks for the reply Matthias. I appreciate the straight answer. The way things are it’s no dealbreaker:-)

Cyrano, while the ADI is the first class compliant interface I have tested in OSX for a long time I do have some vague memory of CC devices having slightly lower RTL in the past than now but maybe I’m mistaken.

Yes I’m doing live audio recording with multiple headphone sends and was hoping to get 2 headphone sends from the
ADI in addition to a third stream to feed my control room speakers. I may still be able to achieve this without USB by feeding SPDIF, AES and analog inputs. I haven’t had time to test yet..

I’m wondering whether you or anyone knows has Apple changed their core audio drives in recent OS? My test machine is on Mojave.

Kind regards

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Paul Najar
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www.jaminajar.com

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  • Registered: 2021-03-15
  • Posts: 2

Re: ADI-2 Pro FS BE OSX Driver Development?

I had a Duet II USB DAC before the ADI- 2 DAC which still blows me away. The DUET rarely worked with OS X and I was glad to replace it. Non-Apple drivers are dangerous and I would just as soon not have one, but I do admit that if you want to record, no latency is the best latency.