Re: Feature requests for ADI-3 DAC

IMHO, type C connector is not as robust as the existing connector at back of the DAC.

If power is not enough from the computer USB port, then you still need PSU from mains, also USB power can bring noise.

Built in PSU is not a good idea, if it fails, the DAC is not usable and need to go to service, separate PSU is better because easy to get a replacement.

I do not know if the bus power is possible to drive the headphone amp to get a higher voltage,lots of things needs stable power to run within the DAC.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

102 (edited by ramses 2022-01-05 06:09:29)

Re: Feature requests for ADI-3 DAC

Johannes AU wrote:

Besides, how many watt(s) can be output from a USB 2.0 port?

If Wikipedia is correct, then this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Power

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Feature requests for ADI-3 DAC

ramses wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:

Besides, how many watt(s) can be output from a USB 2.0 port?

If Wikipedia is corrent, then this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Power


Yeah~~ so the existing config of PSU is good and well thought. One can bring the DAC to elsewhere to run with different computers without digging into the specification of it.

Plug and play with the external PSU at the mains.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

104 (edited by ramses 2022-01-05 06:15:23)

Re: Feature requests for ADI-3 DAC

Johannes AU wrote:
ramses wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:

Besides, how many watt(s) can be output from a USB 2.0 port?

If Wikipedia is corrent, then this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Power


Yeah~~ so the existing config of PSU is good and well thought. One can bring the DAC to elsewhere to run with different computers without digging into the specification of it.

Plug and play with the external PSU at the mains.

German version of Wiki page gives a better overview: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Serial_Bus

                                                   Voltage                                   Current     Power
Specification                               Nominal value   permissible     max.         max.     
--------------------------------------+-------------------+----------------+----------+---------------
USB 2.0 (High-Powered-Port)             5V              4.75–5.25V      0.5A        2.5W

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

105 (edited by Johannes AU 2022-01-05 06:21:33)

Re: Feature requests for ADI-3 DAC

ramses wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:
ramses wrote:

If Wikipedia is corrent, then this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Power


Yeah~~ so the existing config of PSU is good and well thought. One can bring the DAC to elsewhere to run with different computers without digging into the specification of it.

Plug and play with the external PSU at the mains.

German version of Wiki page gives a better overview: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Serial_Bus

                                                   Voltage                                   Current     Power
Specification                               Nominal value   permissible     max.         max.     
--------------------------------------+-------------------+----------------+----------+---------------
USB 2.0 (High-Powered-Port)             5V              4.75–5.25V      0.5A        2.5W


So the conclusion is, External PSU with clean and stable power.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

106 (edited by torbenscharling 2022-01-06 02:30:36)

Re: Feature requests for ADI-3 DAC

Johannes AU wrote:
ramses wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:

Yeah~~ so the existing config of PSU is good and well thought. One can bring the DAC to elsewhere to run with different computers without digging into the specification of it.

Plug and play with the external PSU at the mains.

German version of Wiki page gives a better overview: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Serial_Bus

                                                   Voltage                                   Current     Power
Specification                               Nominal value   permissible     max.         max.     
--------------------------------------+-------------------+----------------+----------+---------------
USB 2.0 (High-Powered-Port)             5V              4.75–5.25V      0.5A        2.5W


So the conclusion is, External PSU with clean and stable power.

USB-C plug being less stable, less secure sounds more like an opinion than facts. Go look up the power of USB-C - plenty of juice to keep the RME gear going. Go look up strong usb-c plugs and cables. How little power USB2 can give, is no reason not to implement usb-c.

And also I'd say the ADI's are portable enough to justify bus powering.

Re: Feature requests for ADI-3 DAC

So let's get some facts from some random reddit'er on the table and leave the past behind:

USB-C, and the various protocols that can be supported within it, including but not limited to USB 3.2 and Thunderbolt 3, are the first time that “Universal Serial Bus” has finally broken through the promise of its name, launched more than 20 years ago, and now truly delivering on that promise:

    it’s the same connector on both ends, minimises frustration.
    the connector can be plugged in either way around, minimises frustration.
    it’s high-speed, starting at 5 Gbps for USB 3.1 Gen1, 10Gbps for USB 3.1 Gen2, 20Gbps and up to 40Gbps with Thunderbolt3 on USB-C cables (depends on length & whether the cable is passive or active). This is a major breakthrough - throughout USB 2.0’s history, 480Mbps was quite often the speed/performance bottleneck between a computer and whatever was on the other end, particularly for storage and graphics/camera devices. This is no longer the case for most applications. Even low-end discrete 3D GPU chips that would normally demand the highest bandwidth PCI-Express connections within a PC can now be at the far end of a USB-C Thunderbolt 3 cable in an external box.
    USB-C device with USB Power Delivery is capable of delivering up to 100 Watts of power. The recipient of that 100 Watts can be almost anything. Because of USB-C’s bi-directionality, that flow of power can be in previously impossible orientations, for example a computer monitor could conceivably be both powered by, and driven with video and audio data from, a computer or laptop, OR the monitor/TV could conceivably be powering the laptop while still receiving video/audio data from the laptop. Or, a smartphone/tablet could provide power to a device, while technically being a peripheral to that device. 1 cable to ‘rule them all’.
    USB has become utterly ubiquitous in what kinds of devices can be connected at the OS & software levels, and USB-C broadens that capability even further with the addition of other-than-USB protocols, like Thunderbolt, DisplayPort, HDMI, and MHL, for devices that choose to implement those protocols instead of USB 3.2.

Expect Apple to ditch Lightning on iThings and move to USB-C in a year or three. They chose Lightning (first released in product in 2012’s iPhone 5) because USB-C was taking too long to be cooked, but USB-C is superior in most ways.

Heck, even Linus fanboys over this plug: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqtNleXhTRE


PS: I get all the love for USB2, don't get me wrong - I understand. I love pure power too. I'm using a Corsair SF750 on my desktop for instance, great little PSU that doesn't activate it's fan unnecessarily. I'd say the only reason apart from less failure from a reversible plug, is it's power handling is so great it'd not make sense to not consider it very very carefully, despite the long run USB2 has had.

108 (edited by Johannes AU 2022-01-06 05:18:50)

Re: Feature requests for ADI-3 DAC

torbenscharling wrote:

So let's get some facts from some random reddit'er on the table and leave the past behind:

USB-C, and the various protocols that can be supported within it, including but not limited to USB 3.2 and Thunderbolt 3, are the first time that “Universal Serial Bus” has finally broken through the promise of its name, launched more than 20 years ago, and now truly delivering on that promise:

    it’s the same connector on both ends, minimises frustration.
    the connector can be plugged in either way around, minimises frustration.
    it’s high-speed, starting at 5 Gbps for USB 3.1 Gen1, 10Gbps for USB 3.1 Gen2, 20Gbps and up to 40Gbps with Thunderbolt3 on USB-C cables (depends on length & whether the cable is passive or active). This is a major breakthrough - throughout USB 2.0’s history, 480Mbps was quite often the speed/performance bottleneck between a computer and whatever was on the other end, particularly for storage and graphics/camera devices. This is no longer the case for most applications. Even low-end discrete 3D GPU chips that would normally demand the highest bandwidth PCI-Express connections within a PC can now be at the far end of a USB-C Thunderbolt 3 cable in an external box.
    USB-C device with USB Power Delivery is capable of delivering up to 100 Watts of power. The recipient of that 100 Watts can be almost anything. Because of USB-C’s bi-directionality, that flow of power can be in previously impossible orientations, for example a computer monitor could conceivably be both powered by, and driven with video and audio data from, a computer or laptop, OR the monitor/TV could conceivably be powering the laptop while still receiving video/audio data from the laptop. Or, a smartphone/tablet could provide power to a device, while technically being a peripheral to that device. 1 cable to ‘rule them all’.
    USB has become utterly ubiquitous in what kinds of devices can be connected at the OS & software levels, and USB-C broadens that capability even further with the addition of other-than-USB protocols, like Thunderbolt, DisplayPort, HDMI, and MHL, for devices that choose to implement those protocols instead of USB 3.2.

Expect Apple to ditch Lightning on iThings and move to USB-C in a year or three. They chose Lightning (first released in product in 2012’s iPhone 5) because USB-C was taking too long to be cooked, but USB-C is superior in most ways.

Heck, even Linus fanboys over this plug: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqtNleXhTRE


PS: I get all the love for USB2, don't get me wrong - I understand. I love pure power too. I'm using a Corsair SF750 on my desktop for instance, great little PSU that doesn't activate it's fan unnecessarily. I'd say the only reason apart from less failure from a reversible plug, is it's power handling is so great it'd not make sense to not consider it very very carefully, despite the long run USB2 has had.

Don't get me wrong too, I am not against USB4 or against your opinion/input, it is a discussion smile

My old cheap iFi Zen Dac use USB3, but not offering enough power for its headphone amp, user still need a separate 5V input to it, so it is all about the implementation of hardware.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: Feature requests for ADI-3 DAC

Johannes AU wrote:

Don't get me wrong too, I am not against USB4 or against your opinion/input, it is a discussion smile

Absolutely, +1 for exchange of arguments :-)

What I personally do not like with USB-C is
- it's never 100% clear what is behind it, whether only USB or also thunderbolt
- the plug is so tiny, it doesn't appear robust enough for my personal taste, I really do not like it alone for this reason
- same thing with thunderbolt pls remember all those reports, only the expensive apple TB cable $$$ works
  In contrast to that a normal USB2 cable simply works and is less expensive
- USB2 cables allow 5m cables USB-C with USB2 transfer speed only 4m, huh, where got 1m lost
  On high speed the cable lengths are even limited to 1m. We will need more compact desks in the future.
  Lets see it positives, we only need shorter arms then ..

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Feature requests for ADI-3 DAC

USB2 cables allow 5m

Does this still work in practice for high bandwith applications?

Re: Feature requests for ADI-3 DAC

Just as with A, with C: In theory, there’s no actual “maximum.” However, if you go beyond 3 meters (about 10 feet), your signal will start to degrade. The longer you extend the cable, the lower the speed and the less power it will provide. This gives you a little bit of wiggle room if all you’re doing is sending a signal. For example, if you need to send a security camera feed, a 20-foot run is probably doable, assuming minimal interference. On the other hand, if that feed is a 4K camera with two-way audio, you might have an issue. And if that camera requires the USB cable for power, you’re definitely going to have trouble

So ya I guess if 1 meter more is important, USB2 wins in the long run……

112 (edited by ramses 2022-01-06 09:35:34)

Re: Feature requests for ADI-3 DAC

torbenscharling wrote:

Just as with A, with C: In theory, there’s no actual “maximum.” However, if you go beyond 3 meters (about 10 feet), your signal will start to degrade. The longer you extend the cable, the lower the speed and the less power it will provide. This gives you a little bit of wiggle room if all you’re doing is sending a signal. For example, if you need to send a security camera feed, a 20-foot run is probably doable, assuming minimal interference. On the other hand, if that feed is a 4K camera with two-way audio, you might have an issue. And if that camera requires the USB cable for power, you’re definitely going to have trouble

So ya I guess if 1 meter more is important, USB2 wins in the long run……

When I remember one of the last USB discussions back then KaiS even told, that with e.g. USB3 you can even have bad luck, that the 3m (told by specs) can't be reached successfully, might also depend on the cable and shielding.

I was only concerned about tiny looking USB-C plug and that along with this at USB2 speed you have length restriction compared to the old USB plug.

As far as I know USB2 allows 5m for whatever speed you choose. Same for the USB3 and 3m.

On the long run the "latest and greatest will win", what the industry delivers to you.
And during the crisis, what the industry can manufacure and deliver to you.
Later I have to take, same as everybody else, what RME choosed for whatever reason wink

EDIT: and I give you another example. Operational reasons.
Whenever you get higher transmission speeds you see two things
- shorter length
- the need for better shielding, for USB3 you even get cables from Lindy with 3 shields

If you have now such a tiny plug, but a relatively stiff cable because of the required shielding, then this is not good for the handling.

The best example what I mean is if you look at the stiff Sommer Cable TOSLINK cables. At the first glimpse you think wonder ful quality, good thick mantle to protect the cable. But when you actually use it then you see, that the stiff cables have more disadvantages than advantages when using it. The cables are
- so thick, that you have problems to plug several of them into UFX+/RayDAT where you have a few ADAT ports in a row at close distance
- so stiff, that the cable lays not well instead of this puts a bending force to the plug at the device so that you fear to damage something at the ADAT port

Back to copper cable (this toslink was only another bad example). Therefore for me personally .. high speed transfer and tiny plugs on copper cables is something that I do not really like for operational reasons.

Wherever you look into the industry .. tiny has many advantages. Even Apple recognized that and made the laptops in the latest generation at least a little bit higher in terms of the volume.

Small is only beautiful inside of the chips as small structures reduce energy demands, but is ofc more and more difficult to reach more and more progress and to stay stable and still get a good yield during production.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

113 (edited by Johannes AU 2022-01-06 09:40:03)

Re: Feature requests for ADI-3 DAC

ramses wrote:
torbenscharling wrote:

Just as with A, with C: In theory, there’s no actual “maximum.” However, if you go beyond 3 meters (about 10 feet), your signal will start to degrade. The longer you extend the cable, the lower the speed and the less power it will provide. This gives you a little bit of wiggle room if all you’re doing is sending a signal. For example, if you need to send a security camera feed, a 20-foot run is probably doable, assuming minimal interference. On the other hand, if that feed is a 4K camera with two-way audio, you might have an issue. And if that camera requires the USB cable for power, you’re definitely going to have trouble

So ya I guess if 1 meter more is important, USB2 wins in the long run……

When I remember one of the last USB discussions back then KaiS even told, that with e.g. USB3 you can even have bad luck, that the 3m (told by specs) can't be reached successfully, might also depend on the cable and shielding.

I was only concerned about tiny looking USB-C plug and that along with this at USB2 speed you have length restriction compared to the old USB plug.

As far as I know USB2 allows 5m for whatever speed you choose. Same for the USB3 and 3m.

On the long run the "latest and greatest will win", what the industry delivers to you.
And during the crisis, what the industry can manufacure and deliver to you.
Later I have to take, same as everybody else, what RME choosed for whatever reason wink


100% agree.

Apart from the speed/bandwidth thing, type C plugs claims can deliver more power, but the pins inside are so small and thin, it against the physics, and when I charge some new device with type C, the connector warms up ... warming up means what? to make it softer? what is the cross sectional area of that pin and wire within the cable?

When micro USB is launched with a latch, people say the former version is sh_t, then USB3 ..... and USB4 ....

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

114

Re: Feature requests for ADI-3 DAC

USB-C is the way to go, IHMO.
I found it to be very convenient and reliable so far.

One of the lower power rated USB-C types, USB2.0 protocol but 5V@3A power, would be more than ample for a simple DAC. Actually even 5V@1.5A might be OK.

For long-term mechanical stability, USB1/2 Type B receptacle is hard to beat, though.