1 (edited by Sebastian.Athea 2021-05-01 14:24:36)

Topic: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

Reduced dynamic range is the biggest flaw on *other devices with digital volume control. In Rme dac manual page 63 (31.14 Digital Volume Control) dynamic range isn't mentioned; Are Rme dac/pro affected with loss of dynamic range when their volume control is used?

2 (edited by KaiS 2021-05-01 15:30:22)

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

Sebastian.Athea wrote:

Reduced dynamic range is the biggest flaw on *other devices with digital volume control. In Rme dac manual page 63 (31.14 Digital Volume Control) dynamic range isn't mentioned; Are Rme dac/pro affected with loss of dynamic range when their volume control is used?

Yes, of course, if you feed less digital signal into a DAC chip you reduce the signal to noise ratio.
Why is that: simply because the DAC chip’s residual noise stays constant no matter what signal you feed it with.

So far the theory.


Now comes ADI-2’s genius “Auto Reference Level” function, that counteract this problem by automatically switching the analog gain after DA conversion in a range of 18 dB, a 6 dB stepped analog volume control.

Together with the 6 dB digital gain now you have a 6 + 18 + 6 = 30 dB volume control range where S/N ratio stays within 6 dB to the enormous maximum of 124 dBA RMS.
Very few analog power amps even come close!


Fact: if you don’t do anything really stupid you will never hear any noise from ADI-2.

How to setup and optimize the signal quality read this (Case 2 for digital volume control):
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 21#p161721


BTW: “Auto Reference Level” even takes into account any level changes caused by DSP functions like EQ, to avoid clipping!

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

Sebastian,

Please refer to Pg.63 of your User Manual for an informative overview of RME's Volume Control implementation.  It functions superbly, and RME even supplies supporting data to prove it.

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

Curt962 wrote:

Sebastian,

Please refer to Pg.63 of your User Manual for an informative overview of RME's Volume Control implementation.  It functions superbly, and RME even supplies supporting data to prove it.

Curt

read my post, I specifically referenced that page.

5 (edited by Sebastian.Athea 2021-05-01 16:06:48)

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

KaiS wrote:
Sebastian.Athea wrote:

Reduced dynamic range is the biggest flaw on *other devices with digital volume control. In Rme dac manual page 63 (31.14 Digital Volume Control) dynamic range isn't mentioned; Are Rme dac/pro affected with loss of dynamic range when their volume control is used?

Yes, of course, if you feed less digital signal into a DAC chip you reduce the signal to noise ratio.
Why is that: simply because the DAC chip’s residual noise stays constant no matter what signal you feed it with.

So far the theory.


Now comes ADI-2’s genius “Auto Reference Level” function, that counteract this problem by automatically switching the analog gain after DA conversion in a range of 18 dB, a 6 dB stepped analog volume control.

Together with the 6 dB digital gain now you have a 6 + 18 + 6 = 30 dB volume control range where S/N ratio stays within 6 dB to the enormous maximum of 124 dBA RMS.
Very few analog power amps even come close!


Fact: if you don’t do anything really stupid you will never hear any noise from ADI-2.

How to setup and optimize the signal quality read this (Case 2 for digital volume control):
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 21#p161721


BTW: “Auto Reference Level” even takes into account any level changes caused by DSP functions like EQ, to avoid clipping!

That wasn't my question, I think you're confusing signal to noise ratio (which was never my concern) with dynamic range, most dacs apply dynamic range compression to fit the digital signal into new smaller envelope when volume is reduced resulting in smaller sound stage, and loss of detail at high attenuations. I don't understand how did you get to 30 dB of analog volume control, manual says that it has 18db of auto reference level attenuation adjustable in 4 steps with 6db increments, you aren't suppose to add those numbers I think, it's 18db of volume attenuation in analog that's all, and about 7 db of that volume attenuation is unusable with most gear because they are meant to drive 8 volt xlr and 4 volt rca devices which are rare even in studios, giving you a usable range of only 11-12db.

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

Hi

the DAC does nothing like compression. Its a linear DAC.
What KaiS mentioned is the case.
What ADI does is to optimize the singal chain if you lower the volume. This is a quiet unique feature of this RME device.

Peter

7

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

Sebastian.Athea wrote:

That wasn't my question, I think you're confusing signal to noise ratio (which was never my concern) with dynamic range

SNR and DNR are usually identical.

Sebastian.Athea wrote:

most dacs apply dynamic range compression to fit the digital signal into new smaller envelope when volume is reduced

I am not aware of a single (!) DAC that does that. Example?

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

MC wrote:
Sebastian.Athea wrote:

That wasn't my question, I think you're confusing signal to noise ratio (which was never my concern) with dynamic range

SNR and DNR are usually identical.

Sebastian.Athea wrote:

most dacs apply dynamic range compression to fit the digital signal into new smaller envelope when volume is reduced

I am not aware of a single (!) DAC that does that. Example?

I'm pretty sure s.m.s.l does, or at least they used to

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

Hey MC I'm not trying to be antagonistic so please don't take it the wrong way, I'm trying to learn and understand how dacs work.
From what I read dacs usually struggle to get past 21-22 bit resolution even the high end ones, so it goes that something has to give when you reduce volume digitally and start cutting into bit depth, you either have to compress dynamic range of digital signal going to the dac chip to try preserving all information in the original signal, or you have to start cutting parts of the signal to maintain original loudness.
How does RME get around this?

10 (edited by ning 2021-05-01 18:37:36)

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

you need to understand how dac works before asking questions that do not make sense.
to simply things, let's say your digital signal is 32 bits integer, and when it's converted to analog it can only preserve the first 24 bits and the last 8 bits is lost under the noise floor.  Now you use digital volume to turn down the volume so your signal is shifting right 8 bits. so now you have 8 zeros at top, middle 16 bits that represents your actual signal that can be rendered above the noise floor, and 8 bits below the noise floor. so now your previous 24 bits dynamic range (or snr) turns to 16 bits.  that's nothing you can do to save it.

never trust smsl. they don't know how to implement dacs. recent example:https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … nic.22710/

11 (edited by pschelbert 2021-05-01 19:35:14)

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

As far as I understand RME ADI does preserve the available ca. 21 Bits even if you turn down the volume.

Other DAC do loose Bits.

Even then, if you have 16Bits as mentioned above you are way better than what you can hear.
Lowering the volume from 24Bit to 16Bit will attenuate the signal 48dB, thats really audibly huge.

Try it out and you are surprised.

So don't be fooled by marketing mambo-yambo.

Peter

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

pschelbert wrote:

As far as I understand RME ADI does preserve the available ca. 21 Bits even if you turn down the volume.

Other DAC do loose Bits.

Even then, if you have 16Bits as mentioned above you are way better than what you can hear.
Lowering the volume from 24Bit to 16Bit will attenuate the signal 48dB, thats really audibly huge.

Try it out and you are surprised.

So don't be fooled by marketing mambo-yambo.

Peter

Even in the best case scenario with -5db in analog and assumption that there won't be any other artifacts present, signal to noise on your 1000eur dac would drop ~75db, quite audible level, and performance in line with dac built into playstation 2.

On another point it took some serious googlefu but I managed to find measurements of what effect reducing the volume by 15db past reference level (-5db) to 33.5db indicated on rme which would give you actual -27.5 db volume reduction (I would need 50~40db reduction for my use case) has compared to reducing the volume in software and passive pot https://thegoldenone.co.uk/volcontrol.png
yeah... that doesn't look very good, looking at software vs rme there is little difference not saying rme doesn't do anything different from freeware player but here it is, and passive volume pot makes what's written in the manual page 63... well I'll refrain from making further comments on the measurements.
I also remember a few reviews of rme adi-2 dac complaining about poor sound stage with it's headphone amp including innerfidelity, I wounder if rme's volume control was to blame for it.
For the record I do own adi-2 dac, and I'm getting active speakers, that's why I started the thread.

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

If you desing the signal-chain correctly you get even high performance without the great feature of ADI Volume optimization.

You have to desing the signal-chain not to clip at the maximum level you listen. (for example 120dB SPL Peak). You adjust the amps to that level. The DAC is then on 0dBfs.

Then you may lower the volume to some lower level. I promise there is no issue then.

If you listen at highest volume with an attenuation of 50dB you do something wrong.

14 (edited by Sebastian.Athea 2021-05-01 22:20:56)

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

pschelbert wrote:

If you desing the signal-chain correctly you get even high performance without the great feature of ADI Volume optimization.

You have to desing the signal-chain not to clip at the maximum level you listen. (for example 120dB SPL Peak). You adjust the amps to that level. The DAC is then on 0dBfs.

Then you may lower the volume to some lower level. I promise there is no issue then.

If you listen at highest volume with an attenuation of 50dB you do something wrong.

That might not be possible or practical, for instance you might wanna listen a metal or electronic song that's really loud, then switch to jazz or orchestra music that's 10-15db quieter, or watch a bluray that's another 10db quieter, not to mention that you might have multiple devices with different gain that you wanna control from a single point (like I do) like discrete analog headphone amp, and speaker system which have different gain.

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

I also wanna stress that manual page 63 does not specify the need for signal optimization nor adding fixed rca or xlr attenuators in signal chain to make vol control perform well if your power amp doesn't have gain control, actually it's quite the opposite. I would politely ask that RME revise their manual, as well as remove comparisons with other methods of vol control that aren't backed up by the measurements in conditions not ideal for RME products.

16 (edited by KaiS 2021-05-02 08:02:06)

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

It seems you mix the reproduced music’s dynamic range with the DAC’s signal to noise ratio.
But, these are totally different issues.


The music’s dynamic range is the difference between loud and soft musical parts and is not affected by any usual DAC, RME’s make no exception.

This would need to be done on purpose by a DSP function called “Compressor / Limiter”, which cannot be found in any DAC chip.
Lowering the digital volume does not affect music‘s dynamic range, never!


Every other question, regarding S/N ratio, THD and resolution is thoroughly explained on ADI-2 DAC’s manual page 63, no sense to repeat this here.
If you are not familiar with technical terms some might be not so easy to understand, just take it or ask.
I’m willing to further explain certain points, i.e. noise and distortion from analog volume controls.




Regarding your personal usecase:

My reply in post #2 and the link is meant to optimize S/N ratio, which I’d suggest to follow, especially for your special purpose where you need a wide volume control range for your different connected devices.
You can use individual passive attenuators for each of those devices that do not have a gain or volume control built in.



For your convenience I copied the well thought out and approved procedure from the linked posting:

CASE 2, digital volume control:

If you want to use ADI-2's digital volume control to set listening level, ADI-2 DAC / (Pro) has a clever option that increases the usable dynamic range by 18 / (20) dB: "Auto Reference Level":

• Switch ON ADI-2's "Auto Reference Level".
• Set ADI-2 DAC's (Pro's) volume control to -18 / (-20) dBr(1)
• Set ext. amp's volume control (or passive attenuators) slightly above your normal listening level.
• Use ADI-2's volume control to set the final listening level.

Now ADI-2 automatically adapts the reference level for best fit to your loudness demands, while maximizing it's DAC's dynamic range.

If your external amp does not have a volume control, use variable passive attenuators to fit the level:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 42#p120442



SIDEMARK:
(1)
The volume figures change from dB to dBr when Auto Reference Level is “ON”.
The dBr relates to maximum achievable level with highest Reference Level then.

With “Auto Reference Level “OFF” the dB-figures (without r) relate to the manually choosen reference level.

17

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

Sebastian.Athea wrote:

Even in the best case scenario with -5db in analog and assumption that there won't be any other artifacts present, signal to noise on your 1000eur dac would drop ~75db, quite audible level, and performance in line with dac built into playstation 2.

This example does not make any sense, there is nothing 'audible' about it. As pschelbert wrote - just do it! Then you will notice that you don't loose anything but volume. The music is now so low in volume that you can't hear any details anymore. And that won't change when still having full resolution at this volume level. The limit is your (our) ears.

Furthermore it should be clear that most of what you hear then sunk into a noise floor - and again you are not able to even hear that noise floor. So what?

BTW, you should be able to verify this easily by taking that super-low volume signal into a mic preamp, amplify it by 50 dB and listen to it. You will notice NOTHING has changed - no distortion, no loss in sound stage, no change in sound. The only difference is a significant amount of added noise - which is as obvious as unavoidable.

Sebastian.Athea wrote:

On another point it took some serious googlefu but I managed to find measurements of what effect reducing the volume by 15db past reference level (-5db) to 33.5db indicated on rme which would give you actual -27.5 db volume reduction (I would need 50~40db reduction for my use case) has compared to reducing the volume in software and passive pot
yeah... that doesn't look very good, looking at software vs rme there is little difference not saying rme doesn't do anything different from freeware player

Not quite sure what you see here, but I see (in column 4) that our hardware Ref Level solution works as perfect as an external hardware attenuator, and in combination with the AutoRef mode brings exactly what everyone likes: optimized performance without the need to tinker.

Sebastian.Athea wrote:

I also remember a few reviews of rme adi-2 dac complaining about poor sound stage with it's headphone amp including innerfidelity

That reviewer did not complain at all. He used this point  - as usual a bit blown out of proportion - to make a case so other units don't look obsolete. Reading between the lines helps.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

18 (edited by Sebastian.Athea 2021-05-02 13:50:32)

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

MC wrote:
Sebastian.Athea wrote:

Even in the best case scenario with -5db in analog and assumption that there won't be any other artifacts present, signal to noise on your 1000eur dac would drop ~75db, quite audible level, and performance in line with dac built into playstation 2.

This example does not make any sense, there is nothing 'audible' about it. As pschelbert wrote - just do it! Then you will notice that you don't loose anything but volume. The music is now so low in volume that you can't hear any details anymore. And that won't change when still having full resolution at this volume level. The limit is your (our) ears.

Furthermore it should be clear that most of what you hear then sunk into a noise floor - and again you are not able to even hear that noise floor. So what?

I was referring to use cases where you would need that much attenuation to get to listening level of 75~80db, for instance efficient passive speakers with low impedance paired with power amp.

MC wrote:
Sebastian.Athea wrote:

On another point it took some serious googlefu but I managed to find measurements of what effect reducing the volume by 15db past reference level (-5db) to 33.5db indicated on rme which would give you actual -27.5 db volume reduction (I would need 50~40db reduction for my use case) has compared to reducing the volume in software and passive pot
yeah... that doesn't look very good, looking at software vs rme there is little difference not saying rme doesn't do anything different from freeware player

Not quite sure what you see here, but I see (in column 4) that our hardware Ref Level solution works as perfect as an external hardware attenuator, and in combination with the AutoRef mode brings exactly what everyone likes: optimized performance without the need to tinker.

You missread the chart, my fault for not specifying though; column 3 is with AutoRef enabled and volume set to -33.5db on the RME, column 4 is with volume adjusted only with reference level (AutoRef disabled, ref level -5, volume 0.0), column 5 with vol at 0.0 ref level +1 and volume attenuated by 28 db with goldpoint pot

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

I would also want to direct your gaze towards distortion, that should not be possible according to the manual.

20

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

> column 5 with vol at 0.0 ref level +1 and volume attenuated by 28 db with goldpoint pot

That is not possible. At a fullscale level of +6 dBu (assuming XLR was used) and 28 dB attenuation, the measured noise was at -142,3 dBu. Real world limit is at about -130 dBu, which is already impossible to achieve.

For the rest: the table that you showed is highly misleading and IMHO should be removed from this thread. We also clearly and openly communicated that attenuators help. I fail to see what all this now has to do with your first posts and what is the purpose of all this.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

21

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

Sebastian.Athea wrote:

I would also want to direct your gaze towards distortion, that should not be possible according to the manual.

Really? You think this (any) software can differ between noise and THD at such low levels? Sorry, I am out here.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

MC wrote:

> column 5 with vol at 0.0 ref level +1 and volume attenuated by 28 db with goldpoint pot

That is not possible. At a fullscale level of +6 dBu (assuming XLR was used) and 28 dB attenuation, the measured noise was at -142,3 dBu. Real world limit is at about -130 dBu, which is already impossible to achieve.

For the rest: the table that you showed is highly misleading and IMHO should be removed from this thread. We also clearly and openly communicated that attenuators help. I fail to see what all this now has to do with your first posts and what is the purpose of all this.

Can you elaborate farther on why it's misleading? Those measurements where taken by "the golden one" aka  GoldenSound  a pretty highly regarded member of audio science community.

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

Sebastian.Athea wrote:
MC wrote:

> column 5 with vol at 0.0 ref level +1 and volume attenuated by 28 db with goldpoint pot

That is not possible. At a fullscale level of +6 dBu (assuming XLR was used) and 28 dB attenuation, the measured noise was at -142,3 dBu. Real world limit is at about -130 dBu, which is already impossible to achieve.

For the rest: the table that you showed is highly misleading and IMHO should be removed from this thread. We also clearly and openly communicated that attenuators help. I fail to see what all this now has to do with your first posts and what is the purpose of all this.

Can you elaborate farther on why it's misleading? Those measurements where taken by "the golden one" aka  GoldenSound  a pretty highly regarded member of audio science community.

Where did this data come from and how were measurements made?  Done by online reviewer, a manufacturer, audio engineer…. ?

WY

CD Transport>optical>RME ADI-2 DAC FS(AKM)>XLR balanced >GLM software>Genelec Monitors 8340A

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

yuhasz01 wrote:
Sebastian.Athea wrote:
MC wrote:

> column 5 with vol at 0.0 ref level +1 and volume attenuated by 28 db with goldpoint pot

That is not possible. At a fullscale level of +6 dBu (assuming XLR was used) and 28 dB attenuation, the measured noise was at -142,3 dBu. Real world limit is at about -130 dBu, which is already impossible to achieve.

For the rest: the table that you showed is highly misleading and IMHO should be removed from this thread. We also clearly and openly communicated that attenuators help. I fail to see what all this now has to do with your first posts and what is the purpose of all this.

Can you elaborate farther on why it's misleading? Those measurements where taken by "the golden one" aka  GoldenSound  a pretty highly regarded member of audio science community.

Where did this data come from and how were measurements made?  Done by online reviewer, a manufacturer, audio engineer…. ?

Like I said the data comes from GoldenSound, a reviewer and enthusiast, he got a lot of press recently for  debunking mqa https://youtu.be/pRjsu9-Vznc

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

I had a bit of a light bulb moment, I have THX AAA 789 headphone amp there shouldn't be a reason why I wouldn't be able to max out the volume on it and use it as power amp, and use RME as pre, so I did
here are the specs of AAA789

General

    All parameters measured at 0 dB gain, 1 kHz, with balanced inputs and 300-ohm load unless otherwise noted
    Inputs: Stereo XLR-3 gold-plated Neutrik; Stereo RCA gold-plated
    Outputs: 1/4 in (6.35 mm) TRS gold-plated Neutrik; 3.5 mm TRS gold-plated; XLR-4 balanced gold-plated
    Frequency response: + 0.01 dB / - 0.03 dB 20 Hz–20 kHz; + 0.05 dB / - 0.15 dB 10 Hz–50 kHz
    Input impedance: 50 kOhms balanced or unbalanced
    Chassis: High-grade CNC-milled aluminum with bead-blasted finish
    Power supply: 24 VDC inline brick, universal input 100–240 VAC
    Dimensions: 8.3 x 9.1 x 2.2 in (210 x 230 x 57 mm)
    Weight: 3.4 lbs (1,520 g)

Balanced Output

    Output power: 6000 mW, 16 ohms, <1% THD (watts per channel)
    Output power: 6000 mW, 32 ohms, <1% THD (watts per channel)
    Output power: 800 mW, 300 ohms, <1% THD (watts per channel)
    Output power: 400 mW, 600 ohms, <1% THD (watts per channel)
    THD: -143 dB, 300 ohms, 1 mW: 0.000007%
    THD: -140 dB, 300 ohms, 100 mW: 0.000010%
    THD: -130 dB, 32 ohms, 1 mW: 0.000032%
    THD: -130 dB, 32 ohms, 100 mW: 0.000032%
    THD: -122 dB, 16 ohms, 1 mW: 0.000080%
    THD: -122 dB, 16 ohms, 100 mW: 0.000080%
    IMD: -123 dB, SMPTE 70 Hz + 70 kHz, 300 ohms: 0.000071%
    IMD: -124 dB, DFD 18 kHz + 19 kHz, 300 ohms: 0.000063%
    Crosstalk: -127 dB, 300 ohms: 0.000045%
    Noise (A-wt): 2.4 uV, potentiometer at nil
    SNR: 136 dB, 300 ohms, <1% THD
    Gain: 0.66x , 2.0x, 6.6x (-4, +6, +16 dB), selectable via front switch
    Output impedance: < 0.1 ohms

My most sensitive phones are Focal Elear so I used them, they are at good listening level on a bit below half volume on AAA and +1 ref, 0.0vol on RME. My room is a bit loud at 23~25db, I also created profiles on rme so I could quickly switch between pure dac and preamp modes.
on gain 1 volume had to be reduced to -32.5 on rme (auto ref on) for my listening level (~80db) and I didn't notice any difference, next I switched 789 to max gain setting of 3, the volume level went down to -52db, I still couldn't hear any noise I even tried tuning 789 off to see if there will be a difference, and there wasn't, I also didn't notice any other difference in audio quality compared to dac mode, I was really surprised that 789's input stage could handle the signal that low without completely crapping out let alone to sound like it was driven with line level.
So I guess that's what I learned today.

26 (edited by pschelbert 2021-05-02 22:58:29)

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

My advice: If you own a ADI-2DAC then just forget any other headphone amp. Just use the headphone out of ADI-2DAC. Thats it.

It will not get any better with any other headphone amp in series. The less devices in the chain the better.

Just don't complicate yourself.

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

pschelbert wrote:

My advice: If you own a ADI-2DAC then just forget any other headphone amp. Just use the headphone out of ADI-2DAC. Thats it.

It will not get any better with any other headphone amp in series. The less devices in the chain the better.

Just don't complicate yourself.

I tried it and didn't like it much, that's why I got 789; I mean don't get me wrong it's fine for some less demanding phones, but even the Elear isn't great on it, that phone is easy to drive but it needs a lot of power on the attack, low output impedance to control decay and 789 just does a better job driving it, they sound more detailed with less fuzzy imaging on it than on rme.

28 (edited by KaiS 2021-05-03 15:18:15)

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

Sebastian.Athea wrote:
pschelbert wrote:

My advice: If you own a ADI-2DAC then just forget any other headphone amp. Just use the headphone out of ADI-2DAC. Thats it.

It will not get any better with any other headphone amp in series. The less devices in the chain the better.

Just don't complicate yourself.

I tried it and didn't like it much, that's why I got 789; I mean don't get me wrong it's fine for some less demanding phones, but even the Elear isn't great on it, that phone is easy to drive but it needs a lot of power on the attack, low output impedance to control decay and 789 just does a better job driving it, they sound more detailed with less fuzzy imaging on it than on rme.

Did you do a blind A/B with levels matched within < 0.1 dB?
Else it’s easy to fool oneself about sound differences of electronics.

I did a lot of those, with way higher resolution headphones than the Elear, and never found differences beyond “hardly audible” even with amps of very different types or price ranges.

If I found a difference as dramatic as you describe, I’d suspect something broken.


BTW:
This overpower thing, having Multi-Watt output where only few Milliwatts are used, is a widespread myth powered by prejustice and bias, that blind, level-matched A/B immediately reveals as such.

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

Sebastian.Athea wrote:

Reduced dynamic range is the biggest flaw on *other devices with digital volume control. In Rme dac manual page 63 (31.14 Digital Volume Control) dynamic range isn't mentioned; Are Rme dac/pro affected with loss of dynamic range when their volume control is used?


In theory, yes. In practice, it simply does not matter. You won't ever hear the noise floor unless you first digitally attenuate massively and then apply the same amount of analog amplification to the signal - which would make no sense at all.


Sebastian.Athea wrote:

Hey MC I'm not trying to be antagonistic so please don't take it the wrong way, I'm trying to learn and understand how dacs work.
From what I read dacs usually struggle to get past 21-22 bit resolution even the high end ones, so it goes that something has to give when you reduce volume digitally and start cutting into bit depth, you either have to compress dynamic range of digital signal going to the dac chip to try preserving all information in the original signal, or you have to start cutting parts of the signal to maintain original loudness.
How does RME get around this?

That's not how things work....

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

30 (edited by rawac 2021-05-03 12:12:59)

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

KaiS wrote:

BTW:
This overpower thing, having Multi-Wattoutput where only few Milliwatts are used, is a widespread myth powered by prejustice and bias, that blind, level-matched A/B immediately reveals as such.

Especially, if you look, how "large" the difference between the THX AAA 789 and the ADI-2 DAC  Headphone is. The Focal Elear is average 80 Ohms.

THX AAA 789, single ended: ~ 750 mW
ADI-2 DAC, high power: > 900 mW

or

THX AAA 789, balanced output: ~ 3000 mW
ADI-2 Pro, balanced high power: > 2800 mW

I use the Focal Clear with the ADI-2 Pro, no difference between low power,  high power, balanced low power and balanced high power. I use the balanced low power ... because the cable is longer. And i must confess, i hear difference to my other headphone amplifier. It sounds "different", somehow other, not better or worse. The other headphone amplifier is a Musical Fidelity X-Cans. This an old amplifier with tube, sounds very nice, but not really neutral  wink

Ralf
(ADI-2 Pro FS with ThinkPad Yoga L13, Dynaudio Focus 600 XD or Focal Clear — and a lot of Jazz)

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

rawac wrote:
KaiS wrote:

BTW:
This overpower thing, having Multi-Wattoutput where only few Milliwatts are used, is a widespread myth powered by prejustice and bias, that blind, level-matched A/B immediately reveals as such.

Especially, if you look, how "large" the difference between the THX AAA 789 and the ADI-2 DAC  Headphone is. The Focal Elear is average 80 Ohms.

THX AAA 789, single ended: ~ 750 mW
ADI-2 DAC, high power: > 900 mW

or

THX AAA 789, balanced output: ~ 3000 mW
ADI-2 Pro, balanced high power: > 2800 mW

I use the Focal Clear with the ADI-2 Pro, no difference between low power,  high power, balanced low power and balanced high power. I use the balanced low power ... because the cable is longer. And i must confess, i hear difference to my other headphone amplifier. It sounds "different", somehow other, not better or worse. The other headphone amplifier is a Musical Fidelity X-Cans. This an old amplifier with tube, sounds very nice, but not really neutral  wink

I have dac so I can't speak about performance of pro.
You should never run balanced amp like 789 in single ended mode, from my understanding balanced amps effectively eliminate ground poisoning by having one amp push and other amp pull keeping the ground in balance, single ended amps have to deal with ground poisoning caused by current draining from the load to the ground, balanced amps don't have to deal with this so they usually don't, that's why their performance goes down the if you use single ended output on most of the balanced amps.
I have tried multiple phones on rme
Neumann NDH20 excellent, no difference between rme and 789
LCD-X also great, although they don't sound very good, I don't get why would anyone buy them let alone why they are so popular.
hifiman Arya noticeably better on 789
LCD-3 the same as Arya
Elear also better on 789

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

RME Support wrote:
Sebastian.Athea wrote:

Reduced dynamic range is the biggest flaw on *other devices with digital volume control. In Rme dac manual page 63 (31.14 Digital Volume Control) dynamic range isn't mentioned; Are Rme dac/pro affected with loss of dynamic range when their volume control is used?


In theory, yes. In practice, it simply does not matter. You won't ever hear the noise floor unless you first digitally attenuate massively and then apply the same amount of analog amplification to the signal - which would make no sense at all.


Sebastian.Athea wrote:

Hey MC I'm not trying to be antagonistic so please don't take it the wrong way, I'm trying to learn and understand how dacs work.
From what I read dacs usually struggle to get past 21-22 bit resolution even the high end ones, so it goes that something has to give when you reduce volume digitally and start cutting into bit depth, you either have to compress dynamic range of digital signal going to the dac chip to try preserving all information in the original signal, or you have to start cutting parts of the signal to maintain original loudness.
How does RME get around this?

That's not how things work....

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Thank you for clarifying this!

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

Sebastian.Athea wrote:

LCD-3 the same as Arya
[other Audezes mentioned]

Audezes can sound different from model to model. You could read about this in Katz Corner (Rob Katz on innerfidelity).

Same with my LCD-3, Alcantara version (which is sadly not available anymore) sounds better to my ears. In this case its definitively caused by the other leather which has another structure and might also cause another placement of the phones on your ears.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

ramses wrote:
Sebastian.Athea wrote:

LCD-3 the same as Arya
[other Audezes mentioned]

Audezes can sound different from model to model. You could read about this in Katz Corner (Rob Katz on innerfidelity).

Same with my LCD-3, Alcantara version (which is sadly not available anymore) sounds better to my ears. In this case its definitively caused by the other leather which has another structure and might also cause another placement of the phones on your ears.

Good to know smile

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

Sebastian.Athea wrote:

I have tried multiple phones on rme
Neumann NDH20 excellent, no difference between rme and 789
LCD-X also great, although they don't sound very good , I don't get why would anyone buy them let alone why they are so popular.
hifiman Arya noticeably better on 789
LCD-3 the same as Arya
Elear also better on 789

What makes a headphone that doesn't sound very good "great"?

Re: Does the volume control on Rme adi-2 dac/pro reduce dynamic range?

Biggus D. wrote:
Sebastian.Athea wrote:

I have tried multiple phones on rme
Neumann NDH20 excellent, no difference between rme and 789
LCD-X also great, although they don't sound very good , I don't get why would anyone buy them let alone why they are so popular.
hifiman Arya noticeably better on 789
LCD-3 the same as Arya
Elear also better on 789

What makes a headphone that doesn't sound very good "great"?

I meant rme drives them well, I could not tell the difference between rme and 789 on that particular phone, great refers to rme, not lcd-x