1 (edited by xenox 2021-06-09 12:40:07)

Topic: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

Hi RME community,

I just received my ADI-2 DAC this week. It was supposed to replace my FIIO Q5 that I temporarily used in my HIFI setup (source is a CD transport). I thought the ADI-2 would easily match and surpass the sound of the Q5. However, after the first listening session, I felt like I was missing something.

Since then I'm spending my evenings doing AB tests.

My findings are that the Q5 tends to have more impact in the depths, creates a holographic 3D soundstage and rolls of the highs (even with the sharp default filter). Some instruments seem to come from behind my listening position. The ADI-2 sounds a lot flatter and the sound comes just from the front. My speakers are still disappearing and the soundstage is wide, but everything is happening in the front.

I've tried every filter and while I tend to like the slow filters the most, it's still not nearly what I've experienced with the Q5.

I would really love to keep the ADI-2, am I missing something or is there anything I can do using the parametric eq?

2 (edited by vinark 2021-05-27 11:27:15)

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

The Q5 looks to be very decent. The one thing I can think of is that the Adi might have lower distortion and our ears/brain always finds a little distortion preferable. Also make sure you are listening at the exact same volume. While 0.3 dB is unnoticeable, as a volume difference, you always will prefer the louder one. Still you might just prefer the Q5. Also you might experiencing negative expectation bias, you would expect a big difference in sound, in effect it is very very small, it uses the same dac chips and now it does not sound very good.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

3 (edited by beat8000 2021-05-27 12:51:36)

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

To my knowledge the virtual instruments should never be heard before the loudspeaker. If you hear them behind your listening position the sound is most probably discoloured. I have read this general rule in a hifi forum.

Win10 Pro, ADI-2 Pro, Basis 1, Adam A3X; RL 906; Grace M902B, Glockenklang Bugatti, Strauss SE-NF-3

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

At first I thought the RME DAC sounded flat - I used the loudness feature (2 or 3db boost in both bass and treble) to make it sound more dynamic and give it a bit more life.

I've recently upgraded my mains (cables, wall socket, filtration) and now it's really come to life and sounds far more dynamic - so much so that now I don't use the loudness function. 

Of course the purists on this forum are going to hate this, but it's just my honest experience.

5 (edited by Curt962 2021-05-28 00:59:11)

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

@Xenox

I believe that thus far, Vinark's asessment of your concern is Precisely On-Point, and indeed Listening Level related.   The Human Ear is SO easily deceived, and HiFi Sellers have known this for Decades  wink

The Loudest Box Wins.

To that end, recheck your levels.  In addition, and as a new user it might be a good idea to Scroll through your ADI-2s Menus to ensure that in your exuberance, you haven't inadvertently changed some settings.   We've surely seen this before!  smile

Do refer to the User Manual!

You're OK!  No worries.

Wishing you a fine result.

Curt

PS:   On Re-wiring your Home A.C. Mains with Audiophile Cable? "Audio Grade" Wall Receptacles, and "Electron Lube" at the Main Panel?

https://i.ibb.co/gw6zCBk/image000000-4.gif

Probably not.  wink

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

6 (edited by xenox 2021-05-28 09:57:41)

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

Thanks to all.

At first I thought there's no way that I'm bias towards the Q5 or that cables could make a difference.
But something must have changed since posting.

Using a Harmony remote I made a sequence that switches between the Q5 and the ADI-2 every 20 seconds.
And I have to admit that in the blind test I sometimes choose the ADI-2 over the Q5.

I don't know whether the ADI-2 required burn-in or replacing the solid core DNM RCA cables with normal ones made a difference, but I'm more and more happy with the ADI-2. Sometimes I still think of hearing a bit more echo and air on the Q5, but overall I'm happy.

Nevertheless, I am interested in your experiences.

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

Expectation bias is a b***ch lol.
In a blind test for many pro audio engineers amps where tested. There was no difference. If they had to choose, there was a small advantage to the very cheap $200 amp. Which had the worst distortion figures.
Your test proofs that the Q5 is nice dac too

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

8 (edited by Curt962 2021-05-28 11:34:58)

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

Xenox,

If you were to do a casual search of this Forum, you would find that "Cable" discussions have an exceedingly poor track record here.

This Forum is primarily focused on the RME product, and how to best maximize it's performance through Scientifically Valid means.  To that end, unfounded claims/discussions related to Cable "Sound", and other forms of Audio Voodoo are quickly dismissed owing to the lack of supporting data.   

I think that as a long time Forum member, I would be remiss were I not to encourage you to better focus your energies, and direct your attention to some of the REAL ISSUES discussions we've had here.   Things that DO matter!    Take a look around the Forum.  There's lots of material, not the least of which is a somewhat recent discussion about properly Gain-Staging your system to maximize S/N, etc.    Here's a Fine Example:

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 21#p161721

Scroll Down to Post 14 to get to the Crux of that discussion.    This Thread seems directly related to your concerns, and I encourage you to read it.

Objective: Enjoying Fully your new RME!

Best,

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

9 (edited by xenox 2021-05-30 09:56:35)

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

Curt962 wrote:

Take a look around the Forum.  There's lots of material, not the least of which is a somewhat recent discussion about properly Gain-Staging your system to maximize S/N, etc.    Here's a Fine Example:

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 21#p161721

Curt

Thank you!

Getting back to the science:
I've read that 2nd harmonics add a warm sound signature while 3rd harmonics add a cold signature. Is that true?

Measurement Fiio Q5
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … iew.15105/

Measurement RME ADI-2 DAC
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … -amp.7546/

Do the different filters affect the 2nd and 3rd harmonics? I did not find any measurements comparing the filters.

After seeing how much better the ADI-2 measures, I'm much happier :-)

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

> After seeing how much better the ADI-2 measures, I'm much happier :-)

Well, if hearing is so unreliable, it is very reassuring to be able to see it wink

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

xenox wrote:

My findings are that the Q5 tends to have more impact in the depths, creates a holographic 3D soundstage

xenox wrote:

I don't know whether the ADI-2 required burn-in or replacing the solid core DNM RCA cables with normal ones made a difference, but I'm more and more happy with the ADI-2

So, xenox, can you confirm that your ADi-2 now throws a convincing soundstage depth?

12 (edited by xenox 2021-06-07 21:06:49)

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

Yes, sure. I wanted to give an update anyway after listening for at least a week.

I did two major things that brought me warm sound and an amazing 3D holographic sound stage.

First I focused on the speaker position and found that a slight change already made a huge improvement (they are now 1 meter away from the back wall).

Second, I went through all of the filters and found that the NOS filter creates the most 3D-like soundstage. My second favorite filter is the SD Slow filter. I get listening fatigue easily when hearing bright "s" and "z". The NOS and the SD Slow filter both roll off the highs to a very comfortable level. I also tried equalizing the NOS filter a little (Band 5 G: 1 F: 14.3k Q: 0.6) to increase the treble, but that's absolutely not necessary.

For anyone looking for a high quality DAC with many personalization options, I recommend the RME ADI-2 DAC. With the right* filter it sounds "warm" and creates a great soundstage. It's my end game.

*your favorite :-)

Great sounding albums I tested with (they all have a deep and wide soundstage):
Norah Jones - Not Too Late
Daft Punk - Random Access Memories
Broken Bells - Broken Bells
Kendrick Lamar - Damn (just amazing)
Kendrick Lamar - To Pimp a Butterfly
Dr. Dre - 2001
Eminem - The Eminem Show

ps. Can we put (solved) in the topic subject?

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

Thanks!
I cannot listen to it before buying in my country, so every information counts.
Some reviewers insist that Adi-2 is flat sounding, which is odd to me, because I beleive it is very nicely engineered piece of gear.
Cheers!

14 (edited by xenox 2021-06-08 17:16:04)

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

Wlaad wrote:

Some reviewers insist that Adi-2 is flat sounding

I think I read the same reviews smile

It might be true with the default SD Sharp filter. Which may sound too neutral for some. Beside the neutral sound I did also not experience a deep soundstage using the default filter.

But the huge adjustment possibilities allow you to tailor the ADI-2 to your taste. The NOS (Super Slow) and Slow filter might not measure as good as the Sharp, but at the end it all comes down to sound and personal preference.

I found another reviewer who had a similar impression: https://www.hifiwigwam.com/forum/topic/ … adi-2-dac/

…there has been a lot of discussion on expectation bias and mine was in full flow: a very technical product, lots of measurements, studio background….oh yes I have heard this type of product before….bright, shiny, lots of details and very wearing…..BUT NO.

Btw. Read the manual. RME could easily sell it separately :-) It has so much detailed information about audio in general and is very interesting to read.

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

My 2 cents: a DAC is no music instrument, and I want all my electronic devices (player, DAC, amp) to be as flat and neutral as possible...

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

Do you have the ADI-2 with the AK4490 or AK4493 chip? Both DACs are based on essentially the same DAC chip so there shouldn't be much difference in that regard. I have no experience with the Q5 so this is difficult to answer but it is probably at an advantage due to it being battery powered.

But in general if it sounds flat it most likely is because the EQ of your speakers or whatever is flat. I don't personally like that sound and prefer something much closer to the Harman Target. That echoes what mediummanting was saying about engaging the Loudness feature. I had that same flat sound problem out of my speakers initially but have since EQ'd them closer to the Harman target curve. EQing can take a lot of time with testing but I eventually settled on what sounded right to me. Perhaps the Q5 has this greater emphasis in the bass and treble that makes things sound less flat. I don't know. But you have 5 bands of parametric EQ to work with plus Bass/Treble controls. Use it to your advantage, give it a try, and don't let the purists bully you into believing this is wrong.

BTW, I do not use the SD filters. The non-SD filters sound more relaxed to me. Most of the time I use Sharp but sometimes try NOS. Which filter you prefer will depend highly on the overall EQ of your system and also the EQ or mastering of the source material.

17 (edited by ramses 2021-06-08 12:34:12)

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

I'm starting to lose track of this thread.

The ADI-2 Pro/DAC has been doing a damn good job since day 1 (and by that I mean the 1st ADI-2 Pro). And I had already all of these different devices here on a high end HiFi and I used different RME models (ADI-2 Pro, ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE). Initially with the ADI-2 Por I compared the sound between ADI-2 Pro and an Accuphase internal DAC-40 module really thorougly. I could do so, because it is possible in this setup to quickly switch between the two different DACs. The setup: Accuphase E-600 Class A amp and B&W 803D3.

The ADI-2 * series of devices do simply an excellent job of performing a "transparent" (in the sense of non-coloring) high quality D/A conversion. Nothing more, nothing less. If it doesn't sound well, then you have IMHO another issue.

Do not expect too much from the different D/A filters, these are so fine nuances in the sound .. it still sounds well no matter which one you use. These are nuances. B/T and PEQ are there to shape the sound according to volume and personal taste.
Really audible sound differences between AK4490 or AK4493 are also extremely unlikely.

No matter whether in the studio corner or in front of the HiFi. I never needed more that to simply turn the device on and use it. And it's also not required to make something like a science out of it. One can simply use it and thats all. And as I am listening at my HiFi always at the same level, I even decided to simply boost Bass a little statically and thats all. One knob, +1, +2 or +3 and thats all. Gain stays at the same level. Volume I control with the remote of the Accu. Easy going and then nothing but joy.

If there is  something wrong, then it is almost certainly not the device itself. Then you should rather investigate in the area of room acoustics or even consider that maybe the amplifier / speaker combination is not so ideal for a really transparent working device like the ADI-2 *. I would even not exclude that these are simply psychoacoustic effects. You should do A/B comparisons.

Did you try to perform a reset to be on the safe side, to be able to exclude that an important parameter has changed?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

ramses wrote:

I'm starting to lose track of this thread.

Me too smile
I think the word "flat" is problematic, as it is too broad. It can be used in context of frequency response (tonality), dynamics (liveliness), and soundstaging (dimension of depth in virtual space). I'm interested in latter, as I'm quite shure ADI-2 is fantastic in #1 and #2.

19 (edited by xenox 2021-06-08 20:45:46)

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

ramses wrote:

I'm starting to lose track of this thread.

Just to clarify. My problem has been solved (Post 12). Thanks for all the support. I‘m using the NOS filter and enjoy a deep wide soundstage.

Greetings

20 (edited by ramses 2021-06-08 20:59:05)

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

xenox wrote:
ramses wrote:

I'm starting to lose track of this thread.

Just to clarify. My problem has been solved (Post 12). Thanks for all the support. I‘m using the NOS filter and enjoy a deep wide soundstage.

Greetings

The different D/A filters provide smaller nuances/differences, but not of all sudden a "deep wide sound stage"  in comparison to the other filters.

May I ask with which devices you have tested this and whether volume levels were completely the same ?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

xenox wrote:
ramses wrote:

I'm starting to lose track of this thread.

Just to clarify. My problem has been solved (Post 12). Thanks for all the support. I‘m using the NOS filter and enjoy a deep wide soundstage.

Greetings

I hope you don't use the NOS filter at 44/48 khz

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

ramses wrote:

The different D/A filters provide smaller nuances/differences, but not of all sudden a "deep wide sound stage"  in comparison to the other filters.

May I ask with which devices you have tested this and whether volume levels were completely the same ?

As mentioned, I also slightly repositioned the speakers.

Differences between the filters are nuances, that I agree with.

But for me they made the difference between just listening to music and enjoying music. Whenever I can't stop listening, thats when I'm really enjoying music.

23 (edited by xenox 2021-06-09 12:37:27)

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

Wlaad wrote:

I think the word "flat" is problematic, as it is too broad. It can be used in context of frequency response (tonality), dynamics (liveliness), and soundstaging (dimension of depth in virtual space). I'm interested in latter, as I'm quite shure ADI-2 is fantastic in #1 and #2.

Agree "flat" was definitely not the right word. When I chose it, I thought of sound stage (dimension of depth in virtual space).

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

Eneroscu wrote:
xenox wrote:
ramses wrote:

I'm starting to lose track of this thread.

Just to clarify. My problem has been solved (Post 12). Thanks for all the support. I‘m using the NOS filter and enjoy a deep wide soundstage.

Greetings

I hope you don't use the NOS filter at 44/48 khz

Excuse my dumb question but what problems does NOS cause at lower sample rates such as 44/48Khz, I’m also wondering why de-emphasis is disabled when NOS is selected.

I personally use Sharp and Slow as they are technically the least problematic filters. I tested NOS a few times but I can’t say I notice anything out of the ordinary in the audible region.

25 (edited by Eneroscu 2021-06-10 15:20:45)

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

I only recommend NOS on 176/192 khz, it is excellent. 88/96 khz a little high frequency loss. 44/48 khz much loss in high frequency. Please check the instruction manual, page 84

26 (edited by KaiS 2021-06-11 00:56:09)

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

In theory softer filter shapes do less reduction of ultrasonics, hence frequencies above 1/2 samplerate.
This could cause aliasing products in the audible frequency range.

Practically recorded music does contain non (as is already filtered during recording) or very few of these frequencies, so the problem does not become real.


What’s left is the different sound of different filters, specially with samplerates 44.1 and 48 kHz.
At higher samplerates the filters are “out of the way” of the audible range, so don’t make a difference anyhow.


I suggest to unbiased choose what sounds best to you, and don’t care about theory, all theory is grey.
Watch out for transient and room/ambient definition and treble instrument’s separation when choosing, this is where the filter sound different.


Guess what: “Sharp” is NOT my favorite filter, BTW.

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

Eneroscu wrote:

I only recommend NOS on 176/192 khz, it is excellent. 88/96 khz a little high frequency loss. 44/48 khz much loss in high frequency. Please check the instruction manual, page 84

New on this forum (Hi! smile ) and I am planning to buy an RME ADI this week.

Read this part and it kind of worries me. If I listen to Qobuz, the playlists quite often go all over the place in case of bitrate / sample frequencies. Is that going to be a problem with the RME? Do I need to change settings manually for different sound formats?

28 (edited by ning 2021-06-27 13:07:46)

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

Qupie wrote:
Eneroscu wrote:

I only recommend NOS on 176/192 khz, it is excellent. 88/96 khz a little high frequency loss. 44/48 khz much loss in high frequency. Please check the instruction manual, page 84

New on this forum (Hi! smile ) and I am planning to buy an RME ADI this week.

Read this part and it kind of worries me. If I listen to Qobuz, the playlists quite often go all over the place in case of bitrate / sample frequencies. Is that going to be a problem with the RME? Do I need to change settings manually for different sound formats?

auto sample rate switching is done by the music software, not the device.

I don't know if Qobuz's desktop app does that, but there're plenty of music players that support it.
There're also 3rd party apps that can access Qobuz, but also has auto sample rate switching implemented (see https://mpd.readthedocs.io/en/latest/pl … buz#qobuz)

Rest assured and go ahead shopping, as it's device irrelevant --- if Qobuz does not have that feature implemented, no other DAC can do it by themselves as well.

edit: seems that there was a bug for auto sr switching in Qobuz but was later fixed : https://www.reddit.com/r/qobuz/comments … y_playing/ so you should be fine.

29 (edited by KaiS 2021-06-28 15:18:12)

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

Qupie wrote:
Eneroscu wrote:

I only recommend NOS on 176/192 khz, it is excellent. 88/96 khz a little high frequency loss. 44/48 khz much loss in high frequency. Please check the instruction manual, page 84

New on this forum (Hi! smile ) and I am planning to buy an RME ADI this week.

Read this part and it kind of worries me. If I listen to Qobuz, the playlists quite often go all over the place in case of bitrate / sample frequencies. Is that going to be a problem with the RME? Do I need to change settings manually for different sound formats?

I‘m mainly listening to Tidal Hifi (goes up to 24/96) through various iDevices.
Samplerate switching works fully automatic in this configuration.

Bitrate doesn’t have to be switched anyway.

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

Thnx for your replies

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

One follow up question if you guys don't mind.

I am planning to pair this with my Focal Clear MG. It has 55 Ohm of resistance (104dB SPL / 1mW @ 1kHz).

The RME manual says:

 Output level at 0 dBFS, High Power, load 100 Ohm or up: +22 dBu (10 V)
 Output level at 0 dBFS, Low Power, load 8 Ohm or up: +7 dBu (1.73 V)

Is this going to be a problem? Is the 1/4 inch output over 6 ohm? (rule of 8, output resistance should be 1/8 or lower compared to headphones resistance IIRC).

32 (edited by ramses 2021-06-28 15:42:19)

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

Qupie wrote:

One follow up question if you guys don't mind.

I am planning to pair this with my Focal Clear MG. It has 55 Ohm of resistance (104dB SPL / 1mW @ 1kHz).

The RME manual says:

 Output level at 0 dBFS, High Power, load 100 Ohm or up: +22 dBu (10 V)
 Output level at 0 dBFS, Low Power, load 8 Ohm or up: +7 dBu (1.73 V)

Is this going to be a problem? Is the 1/4 inch output over 6 ohm? (rule of 8, output resistance should be 1/8 or lower compared to headphones resistance IIRC).

The ADI-2 will have no problems to drive 55 Ohm headphones and you even won't have to enable high power mode.

See my blog article:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … ses-EN-DE.

You will find there a RME video about High Power Phones Outputs:
EN: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15Zyuo-cOIk
DE: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-20vkogWvWU

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

33 (edited by ning 2021-06-28 17:33:49)

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

Qupie wrote:

I am planning to pair this with my Focal Clear MG. It has 55 Ohm of resistance (104dB SPL / 1mW @ 1kHz).
Is this going to be a problem? Is the 1/4 inch output over 6 ohm? (rule of 8, output resistance should be 1/8 or lower compared to headphones resistance IIRC).

No problem at all. You also see the spec that it can output to  32 Ohm load@1.2 Watt  at +18 dBu. So surely 55ohm is no problem at all.

There are negative and positive rail comparators for each channel to do current sensing in real time and would limit the digital volume if the headphone is too power hungry (such as a 8ohm headphone). So the device and your headphone are always protected.

I don't know where you get the 6ohm from. The output resistance of the HP out is around 0.1ohm, which is clearly stated in the spec. multiply that by 8 is still less than 1ohm. So it can be used with all headphones.

34 (edited by KaiS 2021-06-28 22:35:11)

Re: My new ADI-2 DAC sounds flat (solved)

ADI-2 can drive EVERY headphone on the market, even very hard to drive ones, with full, uncompromised quality.
I even use 4 Ohms headphones with good results.


The Focal Clear is easy to drive.
The only thing to watch out, ADI-2 is powerful enough to break it, and the Clear is known for being delicate in this regard.
Stay with “Low Power” as much as possible!

Opposed to what ning said, there is no headphones protection - can’t be, how should ADI-2 know what the plugged in headphones can stand?!

Low Power is the same quality as High Power (the amp stays unchanged), in fact it even makes better use of the DA-chip’s dynamic range.