1 Topic by perihelion (edited by perihelion 2021-06-03 12:44:58)

  • Registered: 2021-06-03
  • Posts: 7

Topic: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

(i read a lot, and i tried a lot before registering in this forum and creating this topic)

my setup is:

1) adam a5x (the volume is possible from -∞ to 14dB) (i always keep the very middle value: 0dB)
2) adi-2 dac fs (4490) (SW version is 12/2019) (connected to a5x via RCA)
3) i use the optical connection (cable is "klotz") (the system board is "ASUS P9X79 WS", its audio is ALC898)

4) i don't use the usb connection (there are no drivers from RME for my OS: win server 2003)
5) i don't use the coaxial connection (and most likely, i will never use it)
6) currently i don't have any headphones (and i don't plan to buy them, at least in the near future)


7) i listen to the music in foobar (its version is very old: 0.9.6.4) (greatly customized to my taste)

- output device: "DS: Realtek HD Audio output" (another option is available: "KS: Realtek HD Audio output")
- buffer length (recommended 1000-2000 ms): 1000 ms
- output data format: 24-bit (32-bit is also available)
- dither: no

active DSPs: [empty list]

configured virtual asio devices: [empty list]

playback:
- volume control: always total maximum
- replay gain (source mode): none
- replay gain (processing): none
- preamp (with RG info): ±0.0dB (89.0dB)
- preamp (without RG info): ±0.0dB


8) i don't have any asio-related stuff

9) i also use the "audition (3.0.1)" program (quite often)

10) the sound properties of the OS:
- "master volume" is always enabled (but always at 0%)
- "wave" is always enabled
(it's the only place where i adjust the volume when listening to music: i have a convenient ahk-script for it)

- "SPDIF" is always enabled (but locked by the OS at ~75% of volume)
- other columns (like SW Synth, Mic Volume...) are either disabled or completely blocked by the OS


11) currently in the "adi-2 dac fs" i have these settings:

- reference level: +13 dBu
i tried the other 3 options: -5 is awful, +1 is better, +7 is normal, +13 seems to be the best

- volume: 0 dB
i got used to 0 dB in the "adam a5x", so i guess the 0 dB is the best option in "adi-2 dac fs" as well (i may be wrong)

- auto ref level: off
i'm definitely not going to use this option because:
"this technique includes switching of hardware elements ... and is therefore not free of click noise"
(while using the DAC, any kinds of auto-clicks are entirely unacceptable to me)


- width: 1.00 (is it the optimal choice?)

- mono, m/s-proc, polarity, crossfeed, de-emphasis, dual EQ, lock volume, mute, dim, loudness: OFF
should i enable the "lock volume"?

- DA filter: SD sharp
i'm not considering the 3 of 5 filters because:
"Slow and NOS filters cause much more aliasing into the audio band and out-of-band noise than Sharp filters"
should i use the "sharp" filter? (instead of the default "SD sharp" filter)

- balance: <c>

- eq enable: off (i'm not going to use the eq)
- bass/treble: it is currently off (i haven't decided conclusively what to do with it)

- dsd: not going to use it at all

- sample rate: it is always locked at 48k (even when i listen to 24/192-file). is it normal?
- bit: it is always displaying the "16" value (even when i listen to 24/192-file). is it normal?
- state overview: "sync" and "cons" are always displayed


12) i didn't knew it for sure, but now i have in my memory this info:
- SPDIF is limited to 24 bit
- SPDIF is limited to 192 kHz
is it correct? is the 24/192 my absolute maximum? (using the optical connection)

13) is it correct that those test-files (9 wav) are not usable for me?
i'm asking because: i have those files, i tried to play them, and i saw nothing related to them in the screen of "adi-2 dac fs"

14) is there a tiniest sense to substitute my RCA with XLR?
- considering the fact that the current "+13 dBu" value already gives the volume with a very (very) high reserve
- considering the fact that i would like to keep the volume (of "adi-2 dac fs") at 0 dB


15) i'm not good in understanding many sound-aspects, but if i'm not mistaken: the higher SNR - the better

during my experiments with the "adi-2 dac fs": in all cases i don't hear any noise or distortion

while the dynamic range is what really important to me
- i don't like the numerous remasters very much
- i like a lot the sounding of CD's from 1982 to ~1997
- at the same time i hate everything related to vinyl-records, sorry (especially when there is no digital alternative at all)
(clicks and other various sound-defects destroy every good thing about vinyl, and make it a garbage)


16) i know that +13 dBu equals 3.46 V
in my case (using the "adam a5x" speakers):
- is it safe to use: +13dBu (rca) and 0 dB volume?
- is it safe to use: +13dBu (xlr) and 0 dB volume?
- is it safe to use: +13dBu (rca) (with bass gain 6.0 dB) and 0 dB volume?
- is it safe to use: +13dBu (xlr) (with bass gain 6.0 dB) and 0 dB volume?

17) just a few additional notes:

- the remote control (for the "adi-2 dac fs") is not in use (i don't need it)
- after this very initial period of time ends, "adi-2 dac fs" will be placed away (out of my sight)
(so all its encoders/knobs/screen will not be in use as well)

please answer my questions if you have the time, the knowledge, and if you're in the mood

2 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-06-03 13:54:08)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 12,041

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

Hi,

welcome to the forum.

Would it perhaps be possible to number the questions in the text and highlight them better?
As nice as detailed information are at the moment it's difficult to find them.
In point #11 you have many questions, it would be easier to have e.g. one number related to a specific question,
then I can much easiert answer this way "to #" instead of having to quote much text.
Many thanks for your cooperation.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

3 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2021-06-03 15:24:25)

  • KaiS
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2020-02-05
  • Posts: 3,112

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

You seem to have a straight idea how to set your things up and on some points you insist on: “it has to be like this”.

This looks OK except for one thing:
Your reference level might not fit to your listening behavior.

Have a look at ADI-2’s main screen Level Display:

What’s the highest value that is ever shown when playing music ( - xx dB)?
This value is the amount you have to bring down the ADAM a5x speaker volume setting and bring up Windows Volume until ADI-2’s Level Display shows close (with a little margin) to 0 dB while playing music.

This way you get the best resolution out of your signal chain, to overcome the resolution bottleneck that is inside your windows system the way you use it.


Sample Rate and bit depth:
You have to configure ADI-2 to use the SPDIF Optical clock WITHOUT SRC enabled, to follow the Optical Input’s samplerate.
ADI-2 shows the bit depth it receives from the Optical Input.
If it’s 16 bit only e.g. the Realtek driver or something else in the OS limits that.

KaiS's Website

4 Reply by perihelion (edited by perihelion 2021-06-03 16:44:23)

  • Registered: 2021-06-03
  • Posts: 7

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

ramses
7-a) is "1000 ms buffer length" an optimal choice? (i suspect 'yes')
7-b) should i change the "output data format: 24-bit" to 32-bit? (i suspect 'no')


11-a) is "reference level: +13 dBu (rca)" the best choice?
(if we speak about the quality of sound, and about best dynamic range)

11-b) is "reference level: +13 dBu (rca)" worse in any aspect? (than other 3 levels)

11-c) should i always have the "volume: 0 dB"? (if i try to have the best possible sound)

11-d) does the "auto ref level" really produce any kind of clicks? (for example, when a song is starting/playing/ending)

11-e) if the "auto ref level" really produces some kind of clicks, then why does it exist at all? (especially enabled by default)


11-f) is "width: 1.00" the optimal choice?
11-g) i remember that the default state of "width" is not 1.00 (but ~0.60). why?
11-h) is it obvious that the "width" should always be 1.00? (for me 'yes') (i may be mistaken)

11-i) what is the use case for the "mono" option? (especially at home)

11-j) if i enable "lock volume", then what is the benefit?


11-k) should i use the "sharp" filter? (instead of the default "SD sharp" filter) (currently i use SD sharp)
11-l) should i avoid the other 3 filters? (Slow and NOS filters)


11-m) is EQ bad for the dynamic range?

11-n) are there any disadvantages when using the EQ?
(personally, i was never using it) (and i have a huge prejudice about it)


11-o) what exactly do i lose when changing the bass/treble from 0/0 to 6/0?
11-p) what exactly do i lose when changing the bass/treble from 0/0 to 6/4?

11-q) sample rate: it is always locked at 48k (even when i listen to 24/192-file). is it normal?
11-r) bit: it is always displaying the "16" value (even when i listen to 24/192-file). is it normal?



12-a) SPDIF is limited to 24 bit, SPDIF is limited to 192 kHz. is it correct?

12-b) is the 24/192 my absolute maximum? (using the optical connection)


13) is it correct that those test-files (9 wav) are not usable for me?
(i tried to play them, and i saw nothing related to them in the screen)

14) is there a tiniest sense to substitute my RCA with XLR?
- i would like to keep the volume at 0 dB
- the "+13 dBu (rca)" already gives a very high reserve
(usually i have to keep my OS-volume in the range of 3-4% to 15-25%, depending on a release)
(modern over-compressed records: 3-7% of volume is already not quiet at all)


15-a) is it correct that "the higher SNR - the better"?
15-b) is 120 the highest value for SNR? (for "adi-2 dac fs")

15-c) is it correct that now i have 117 SNR?:
"117 dB RMS unweighted (120 dBA)" minus "volume (0 dB)" equals to 117 dB (RMS unweighted)

15-d) where is the rest (3 dB)?

15-e) if i change the volume from 0 to +6 (this is the maximum), then: will i have 117+6=123?
(i deeply suspect that the answer is 'no', so probably something is wrong here)

15-f) have i done everything that i can so that the dynamic range was as best as possible?



16-a) in my case (using the "adam a5x" speakers): is it safe to use: +13dBu (rca) and 0 dB volume?

16-b) (in my case) is it safe to use: +13dBu (xlr) and 0 dB volume?

16-c) (in my case) is it safe to use: +13dBu (rca) (with bass gain 6.0 dB) and 0 dB volume?

16-d) (in my case) is it safe to use: +13dBu (xlr) (with bass gain 6.0 dB) and 0 dB volume?


18) [new question] are there any mistakes (or not optimal choices) in my setup?

19) [new question] is there something i can do to always hear the absolutely smooth transition when i adjust the volume?
(when adjusting, i only use the above-mentioned "wave" column, in the OS)
(i mean my usual 1%-transition, not even speaking about 3% where the transition may be more audible)

(this 'transition' problem is huge, and it's related to more or less quiet parts of songs only)
(this 'transition' problem is completely absent in more or less loud parts of songs)

5 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2021-06-03 17:31:27)

  • KaiS
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2020-02-05
  • Posts: 3,112

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

11-c , 15-c An absolute no, because you don’t feed a high-quality signal into the ADI-2.
Your bottle neck is the volume adjust within the OS, that largely reduces bit depth of your signal.

11-d,e Auto Reference Level only produces low level clicks while you adjust the volume, and only at the moment it does a transition between different reference levels.
During normal playback there are no clicks from ARL.

16-c No, ADI-2’s headroom is 3 dB that is provided for intersample peaks.
If you boost the bass by 6 dB (or do use any other level changing DSP function) you need to dial back Volume by the same amount somewhere in you signal chain.
As you already done that in the OS by a wide margin you can feel free to do what you like in ADI-2.

Practically it’s very easy to find out if things running smooth, look at ADI-2’s level display, it shows “Over” if you are too hot.

19 Go for 100% volume in the OS.
Best signal quality is achieved if you configure everything for a bit correct, unchanged signal transfer.
“Bit Test” can confirm that.

Then use ADI-2’s volume control, it runs all smooth.
ADI-2’s internal volume calculation is done with a very high bit depth, so the result has a higher resolution.
Auto Reference Level adds another 18 dB of volume control range while maintaining almost full SNR.


Here’s a suggested setup guide for your situation:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 21#p161721

KaiS's Website

6 Reply by Curt962 (edited by Curt962 2021-06-04 04:47:11)

  • Registered: 2019-01-07
  • Posts: 1,462

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

13) is it correct that those test-files (9 wav) are not usable for me?
i'm asking because: i have those files, i tried to play them, and i saw nothing related to them in the screen of "adi-2 dac fs"

Peri,

The Bit Test files show nothing on your ADI-2 DAC because you are manipulating Volume at the Player, and corrupting the Data received by the RME.  Bit Test: Fail.   Nothing Displayed.

As noted by KaiS, your PC Volume is the "Bottleneck"   Set your PC Volume to 100%, and control Volume with your RME.    Then?  When you run a Bit Test file, you should then see a White Dialog Box appear on your ADI-2 DAC saying Bit Test XX/XXX PASS.

Now you're making progress.

From my rather Pragmatic Perspective relating to Audio:

It is Perhaps best for You to dismiss with your reluctance to use the numerous, and Splendid Tools that your New RME provides.  Functions such as Auto-Ref, Dynamic Loudness, B/T, EQ, etc are expertly implemented, and serve to allow you to enjoy the most highly optimized listening experience.

Please use them!

Curt

** Edit:   Perhaps RME could at some point implement into the Bit Test Function via Firmware, a Dialog Box that says FAIL in Bold Print when the Data doesn't match.   Why not?  wink

The User shouldn't be insulated from the Hard, Cold Truth.  wink

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

7 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-06-04 13:48:55)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 12,041

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

Curt962 wrote:

** Edit:   Perhaps RME could at some point implement into the Bit Test Function via Firmware, a Dialog Box that says FAIL in Bold Print when the Data doesn't match.   Why not?  wink

Curt, what should RME check for if the bit sequence itself is being corrupted?

I would upgrade the OS and install the RME ASIO drivers to bypass the Windows audio infrastructure as much as possible.
EDIT: and then connect the ADI-2 DAC through USB to be able to use the ASIO drivers.

ASIO drivers are available for foobar2000 or you can also use MusicBee, which is also free of charge and has a nice benefit to support the change of sample rates if you have mixed music content. Not sure whether foobar2000 can do, didn't test yet, as MusicBee is my main player.

I recommend to use an up-to-date Windows 10 installation for operational and security reasons.
It can be operated much better through LAN / WLAN and with internet access its easier to perform updates.
Get Windows 10 Pro as this allows you to delay Windows updates longer to achieve higher stability and not being "misused" as Microsoft Beta tester.

Later you will still have application that do not support ASIO, but then use best WASAPI in exclusive mode, I think this would be the best alternative to ASIO.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

8 Reply by MC

  • MC
  • MC
  • Administrator
  • Offline
  • From: Germany/Thailand
  • Registered: 2007-04-06
  • Posts: 24,823

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

A 'Bit Test failed' message is nearly impossible. As soon as the sequence is not valid one can not know that whatever you read is (or better was) a bit test!

To do that you have to return to old style testing. Files that have a special start marker, plus operation at the unit where you set it into Bit Test mode, then wait for the start marker to be recognized. Clutters the menu with even more functions and does not allow real-time surveillance as we have it now. Our bit test is intentionally simple yet efficient and not a full bit deviation analysis for developers...

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

  • Registered: 2019-01-07
  • Posts: 1,462

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

My "idea" was just a Tongue-in-Cheek thought.   The Bit-Test in it's current form really does work well, and the White Dialog Box is always a reassuring sight. 

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

10 Reply by beat8000 (edited by beat8000 2021-06-04 13:55:57)

  • Registered: 2019-05-30
  • Posts: 63

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

ramses wrote:

I recommend to use an up-to-date Windows 10 installation for operational and security reasons.

According to my check of the Asus Support side the newest recommended Windows OS for the mentioned motherboard P9X79 WS is a Windows 8.1 64 bit. I have tried to install a W10 Pro on a equally old motherboard but it was not possible so far.

Additionally I would connect the ADI 2 DAC with USB if possible and use the ASIO output in foobar.

I'm using the same method also to connect my ADI 2 Pro AE with my newest silent PC. The main reason is that I have huge downloads with about 50 GB and different sample rates. To my opinion it would not be practical to change the sample rates manually for each track if necessary.

Win10 Pro, ADI-2 Pro, Basis 1, Adam A3X; RL 906; Grace M902B, Glockenklang Bugatti, Strauss SE-NF-3

11 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-06-04 13:54:32)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 12,041

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

beat8000 wrote:
ramses wrote:

I recommend to use an up-to-date Windows 10 installation for operational and security reasons.

According to my check of the Asus Support side the newest recommended Windows OS for the mentioned motherboard P9X79 WS is a Windows 8.1 64 bit. I have tried to install a W10 Pro on a equally old motherboard but it was not possible so far.

Additionally I would connect the ADI 2 DAC with USB if possible and use the ASIO output in foobar.

You get drivers for Win10 for this chipset.
https://www.driverscape.com/manufacture … 9x79/39052

I simply assume they missed to update that in the documentation. Win10 will most likely run on even older systems.

Make a disk image / backup and try it out.. Windows 8.* is a nogo. The tile GUI optimized for tablets has not been serious for the desktop (you can't recommend that to your worst enemy, my personal opinion).

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

12 Reply by beat8000 (edited by beat8000 2021-06-04 14:16:02)

  • Registered: 2019-05-30
  • Posts: 63

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

Ok, I have tried to upgrade my W8.1 to a W10 pro for a Gigabyte GA-Z97N-Gaming 5 motherboard after each major update.

According to the Gigabyte support side W10 is supported but the upgrade always stops with a page fault in a nonpaged area even without any apps and after disabling the Realtek audio in the BIOS.

Win10 Pro, ADI-2 Pro, Basis 1, Adam A3X; RL 906; Grace M902B, Glockenklang Bugatti, Strauss SE-NF-3
  • vinark
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2009-06-05
  • Posts: 2,647

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

I have an even older P5Q that failed with a w10 upgrade. But a fresh install worked right away. No drivers needed except of course for audio.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

14 Reply by beat8000 (edited by beat8000 2021-06-04 15:10:10)

  • Registered: 2019-05-30
  • Posts: 63

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

A fresh install also failed in my case. I have even tried to delete all C disk partitions and create the right 3 partitions with the W10 installation procedure.

Win10 Pro, ADI-2 Pro, Basis 1, Adam A3X; RL 906; Grace M902B, Glockenklang Bugatti, Strauss SE-NF-3
  • Registered: 2021-06-03
  • Posts: 7

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

dear community, i hope that you like honesty. because it's all that i can give you now:

windows nt 6.* (vista, 7, 8, 10) is not an option for me at all
usage of a different software audio player is not an option for me at all too (foobar is not replaceable)

this is a very expensive dac with numerous features
but i have no plans to use the features that i don't need or find useless/doubtful:


- auto ref level (any auto-clicks are totally unacceptable), mono, m/s-proc, polarity, crossfeed, de-emphasis, EQ, dual EQ
- lock volume, mute, dim, loudness, dsd
- usb (no drivers for me), coaxial, screen (and everything that's related to it), remote control, both headphone-outputs
- i hope that the "balance <c>" is not going to be used by me (i mean: changed from the <c> state)
- switching of 5 filters, changing the "width"
- bass/treble, xlr: these options are not useless but doubtful for me
- changing the reference level (it's probably the only aspect where i still have some concern: for now i chose +13, but there's a tiny chance that +13 will be changed to +7 or to +1)


you know, the convenience of usage (and nice/good mood during it) matter very much
the usage of this dac already requires compromises
i cannot add a huge inconvenience to my life: so adjusting the volume (using the dac) is not an option for me
moreover, i will not have the dac right beside me

i will keep to adjust the volume using my brilliant and simple and reliable ahk-script:
all i have to do to alter/change the volume, is to slightly scroll the wheel up/down while the cursor is above my left vertical taskbar (during the scroll, i also see the simple and great visual indication showing me the exact level of volume, for example: 0 or 7 or 25 or theoretically 100, but that's too loud)



- if i'm doomed to use the "DS: Realtek HD Audio output", then ok (i'll continue to live with it somehow)
i understand that it's highly recommended that the OS-sound is set to 100%
(long time ago i did all what i could: so in foobar i always have this 100% of volume)

- i'm aware of the fact that the "KS: Realtek HD Audio output" is even more recommended for my OS because the KS approach bypasses the OS (but KS is not an option too: because i lose the possibility to adjust the volume with my script)

- my personal case/workflow/setup/preference don't allow me to set 100% in the "wave" column
(even if i change the ref level from +13 to -5: i was trying it several hours ago)



since today my hope is gone (to receive a real and useful help here)
i haven't received a single useful answer but that's also kind of ok (after all, you owe me nothing)

unfortunately i have no technical possibilies to adjust the volume of the "SPDIF" column (in the OS sound properties)
if i could, then maybe it would have been a solution
because simultaneously i would have raised the level of the "wave" column to 100%
(like some users suggested earlier, and it's the only theoretically useful advice that i got in this topic)

i can only thank the RME company for the available optical connection (without it, i would have been nowhere)

16 Reply by vinark (edited by vinark 2021-06-04 16:29:26)

  • vinark
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2009-06-05
  • Posts: 2,647

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

One more simple thing you could do, for maximum dynamic range.
Set windows volume to 100 set dac to max too, on low ref output
Set the adams as low as they go.
Now play something and raise the adams to a level a little higher then you think you will need, Now you can use the windows volume within an acceptable range.
If later on you don't have enough volume, just raise the adams a little and leave them set like this. There is no technical reason not to use the volume of the adams like this.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

17 Reply by perihelion (edited by perihelion 2021-06-13 01:19:38)

  • Registered: 2021-06-03
  • Posts: 7

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

ramses, i hadn't been visiting this forum for more than a week
during these recent days: i completely read 2 huge related threads (at the audiosciencereview.com) (summarily ~100 pages)
i still have some important doubts/questions/clarifications

initially you wrote: "then I can much easiert answer this way "to #""
then i spent many time and efforts to compose my 2nd message in this thread
(not even speaking about the time spent on the 1st message)
(i'm not that good in english, and i suspect that it's probably evident for a native speaker)

my big 2nd message was created specifically for you
because you asked me to do it for your convenience

will you please pay some serious attention on my questions?
(if you prefer, i may try to substantially reduce their quantity, while also maybe adding several new)

 
KaiS, initially you wrote:
"You have to configure ADI-2 to use the SPDIF Optical clock WITHOUT SRC enabled"
does the SRC stand for 'sample rate conversion'?
do you really think that i use that SRC?
does the SRC even exist in the 'adi-2 dac fs'?

(i never see the 44,1 inscription in the screen, but instead it's always 48, for some unknown reason)

 
vinark
"set dac to max too, on low ref output"
i mentioned this aspect in the start of this thread:
i use rca, and if i change to -5, then the music sounds much worse
+1 sounds much better
+7 sounds normal
+13 seemingly sounds best
so -5 is not an option for sure

"Set the adams as low as they go"
i did it experimentally (in autumn of 2020): i set the volume of adams lower than 0 db
the result was awful (i couldn't finish listening to just 1 song)
so i will never ever lower the volume of adams: i will stay on 0 db (it's 50 % of their volume)
(i may increase their volume though, but i won't do it because i already have immense reserve of volume)

18 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2021-06-13 11:30:51)

  • KaiS
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2020-02-05
  • Posts: 3,112

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

perihelion wrote:

KaiS, initially you wrote:
"You have to configure ADI-2 to use the SPDIF Optical clock WITHOUT SRC enabled"
does the SRC stand for 'sample rate conversion'?
do you really think that i use that SRC?
does the SRC even exist in the 'adi-2 dac fs'?

(i never see the 44,1 inscription in the screen, but instead it's always 48, for some unknown reason)

 
"Set the adams as low as they go"
i did it experimentally (in autumn of 2020): i set the volume of adams lower than 0 db
the result was awful (i couldn't finish listening to just 1 song)
so i will never ever lower the volume of adams: i will stay on 0 db (it's 50 % of their volume)
(i may increase their volume though, but i won't do it because i already have immense reserve of volume)

You are right, there is no SRC (Sample Rate Converter) in ADI-2 DAC, only in Pro.
If ADI-2 DAC does not show the correct samplerate, something is wrong in your Windows setup that needs to be fixed for best sound quality.
Same applies if you only see 16 bits resolution instead of 24 bits.


You mentioned several times that lower reference level or ADAM volume settings gets you an “awful” sound.
That’s pure imagination add results from the fact that the loudness is lower.
If you listen at the same perceived loudness there is no significant difference, except that there is a higher resolution if you make more use of the available bit depth.
I suggest to try again, and dial up the loudness enough to compensate for different reference level or ADAM volume settings.

If you still think the sound is “awful” you might have become used to 10 bit only digital resolution and like the resulting distortions.

KaiS's Website

19 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-06-13 18:38:02)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 12,041

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

perihelion wrote:

ramses
[...]
initially you wrote: "then I can much easiert answer this way "to #""
[...]
my big 2nd message was created specifically for you
because you asked me to do it for your convenience
[...]
will you please pay some serious attention on my questions?
(if you prefer, i may try to substantially reduce their quantity, while also maybe adding several new)

I asked for a clearer presentation so that it is easier to understand not only for me, but also for others, and as you can see, more people have now participated.

Now to the point that you seem to be expecting more help / comments from my side ....

Sorry, but I can't ... after all, everything has been said and you categorically rejected my suggestions for a better and more reasonable setup based on a "best practice approach", even though it would have allowed you to continue listening to your music via foobar2000 (with ASIO plugin), but now just lossless / bit perfect and easier to operate.

I'm afraid no one can really improve your setup if you insist on continuing to go by the motto: "Shower me, but don't get me wet".

All the problems you have now are IMHO based on your current setup, which has the following drawbacks:
- you send audio first through another soundcard (EDIT: using non-ASIO windows drivers)
- you don't bypass the (problematic) Windows sound system
- more difficult to operate in this combination / series of devices

Since I'm not sure if your old PC can be upgraded to Win10, and to give you a chance to go back to the old setup at any time, I would suggest the following:

- get a new Windows 10 Laptop or PC for the new setup, doesn't have to be something really expensive
  Best a model with SSD and Windows 10 Pro to be able to delay upgrades further
- connect the ADI-2 * through USB
- install and use RME ASIO drivers (they are needed anyway to be able to deploy firmware upgrades)
- install the latest foobar2000 version and the ASIO plugin for it
- save current ADI-2 * settings to one of the 10 memory locations to allow a quick fallback to the old setup as plan B

Then give it some time to get used to Win10 and migrate everything to the new machine. It is much better to migrate to a new system slowly, instead of having a system failing from the one to the other day when it hits you unprepared. I would see it as a chance to clean things up and making them tidy. At a certain time this needs to happen anyway, with such old systems its more likely to get a hardware failure from which you can't recover.

General recommendation: implement backup for the new computer
- external USB3 disk
- a good reliable backup solution as Macrium Reflect Home v7 (v8 needs to stabilize stil in terms of GUI design)
  By its rapid delta restore mechanism it recovers only SSD blocks which need to be changed resulting in
  a) less wear on the SSD and b) very quick restore operations

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • Registered: 2021-06-03
  • Posts: 7

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

KaiS

something is wrong in your Windows setup that needs to be fixed

at the moment i don't know if you're right or not, but anyway:
- it seems that i gave all the necessary info (in the 1st message)
- do you have any ideas concerning that "setup that needs to be fixed"? i mean, what exactly can i try to do/check?
i don't even have any drivers for my sound-setup (except for the "Realtek HD Audio output")


Same applies if you only see 16 bits resolution instead of 24 bits

i would like to apologize: there's minimum 99%-chance that previously i made a mistake:
because the recent time i was playing the 24/44,1-album, the screen of 'adi-2 dac fs' was indeed displaying the 24 bits (instead of usual 16) (but still it was 48, not 44,1)


from the fact that the loudness is lower

i hope you understand that simultaneously i was adjusting the overall volume (to compensate the difference between, for example, -5 and +1)

so this...

If you listen at the same perceived loudness

...is exactly what i was trying to do
(and i have no doubts: -5 is just not good at all)



you might have become used to 10 bit only digital resolution and like the resulting distortions

that's a difficult aspect
i'm trying to understand what is going on myself:

- the switch to 'adi-2 dac fs' from the 'dac asus stu' gave me nearly nothing
("improvements" in sounding are: from 0% to 5% maximum, according to my impression, which is not precise of course)

- i only really heard the positive boost in sounding while listening to that above-mentioned 24/44,1-album
(here i should mention that 24-bit-songs were already sounding great even in my previous modest dac ('asus stu')

- at the same time: i don't hear a noticeable positive change in sounding when it comes to the 16-bit-songs
(the nuance is: 16-bit-songs are more than 99,5% of my collection)


i'm not arguing with this your statement, but let me specify: why do say '10 bit only'? why 10?
shouldn't it be ~16-18 honest bits (for the 'asus stu')?
(while the 'adi-2 dac fs' has 20 honest bits, is it correct?)

21 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2021-06-13 20:41:08)

  • KaiS
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2020-02-05
  • Posts: 3,112

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

If your entire signal chain indeed always (even with 16bit media) carries 24 Bits all through there is nothing to worry about the volume and Reference Level settings.

ADI-2 DAC has one of the best Signal/Noise ratios and Bit resolutions you can get, enough to spare some and still have left more than needed.



The samplerate is another story:
Playing media with the wrong samplerate means there is a significant and audible sound degradation happening, especially if the operating system’s minor quality SRC might be active.

If possible, try another signal pathway to the DAC.
This is the only hint I can give, as I run completely different configurations and never used Windows server 2003 OS.
I would not exclude the possibility that Windows Server 2003 does not support other samplerates than 48 kHz with your hardware.
Maybe an older RME audiocard could help.

@MC: any ideas?

Once you fixed that you could use RME Bit-Test (see manual) to verify the signal integrity.
You need to temporary set all volumes to 100% (neutral) to run the test. Speakers better stay off then.

When this is fixed ADI-2 DAC can enfold it’s full quality.

KaiS's Website

22 Reply by perihelion (edited by perihelion 2021-06-13 23:53:01)

  • Registered: 2021-06-03
  • Posts: 7

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

KaiS

indeed always (even with 16bit media) carries 24 Bits all through

the thing is that i don't know if it's true or not

in foobar i have: output format/postprocessing:
output data format: 24-bit (i may choose among: 8, 16, 24, 32)

there's a warning there:
"refer to your hardware specifications for preferred output bit depth; using bit depth above your hardware capabilities will only result in degraded performance"
so i still have 24 there (not 32)
because as i understood the rme manual: 24 is the maximum for the optical connection
there i also read that 24-192 is the maximum for the optical connection



ADI-2 DAC has one of the best ... Bit resolutions you can get

this fact was my main reason for a purchase of the rme dac



if the operating system’s minor quality SRC might be active

i looked through everything in my OS (at least i think so), and there's nowhere i can change, for example, 48 to 44,1

i even opened the direct-x diagnostic tool. its 'sound' tab contains this:
device name - realtek hd audio output
device id - hdaudio\func_01ven_10ecdev_0899subsys...
manufacturer id - 1, product id - 100, type - wdm, default device - yes
full acceleration - yes, whql logo'd - n/a
driver name - rtkHDaud.sys, version - 5.10.0000.7058, date - 2013.10.07



If possible try another signal pathway to the DAC

not possible:
- usb (no drivers for my OS which is kind of identical to win-xp)
- coaxial (nowhere to connect)
- optical (the only option for me)



several minutes ago i performed some small checks, and here are the results:

a) if i play the 24-44,1 file in foobar, the 'rme dac' displays: 24-48 (when playing), 16-48 (when paused or stopped)

b) if i play the 24-48 file in foobar, the 'rme dac' displays: 24-48 (when playing), 16-48 (when paused or stopped)

c) if i play the 24-96 file in foobar, the 'rme dac' displays: 24-48 (when playing), 16-48 (when paused or stopped)

d) if i play the 32-192 file in foobar, the 'rme dac' displays: 24-48 (when playing), 16-48 (when paused or stopped)

e) if i play the 16-44,1 file in foobar, the 'rme dac' displays: 24-48 (when playing), 16-48 (when paused or stopped)

it's difficult for me to interpret these results

23 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2021-06-14 18:36:58)

  • KaiS
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2020-02-05
  • Posts: 3,112

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

My best guess, it’s a driver issue with the Realtek HD.

If there isn’t a better driver available you’re stuck until you use another interface, like an (RME- ?) audiocard / soundcard that has Windows Server 2003 drivers.
The used market is flooded with these cards, so it’s not a $$$ issue, but to make sure Windows Server 2003 is supported.
ASIO drivers would be nice.
BTW: what about “ASIO 4 ALL” for your Realtek HD?


Just a hint: there is no messaging back via optical.
The PC does not “know” what you’ve connected, it cannot recognize the ADI-2.
The final output stage (seen from Windows / PC  view) is the Realtek HD.
ADI-2 just shows what the Realtek sends.


Meanwhile you could do the 48 kHz RME Bit Test, see if 48/16 and 48/24 works correct.

KaiS's Website

24 Reply by Curt962 (edited by Curt962 2021-06-14 16:20:40)

  • Registered: 2019-01-07
  • Posts: 1,462

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

@KaiS,

I think your ASIO 4 ALL suggestion might just be the Magic Bullet that solves all for this user.

I don't use any of this now, but years ago I had a little USB DAC Dongle that refused to work properly until I downloaded ASIO 4 ALL.  Worked perfectly afterwards.   Cost: $0.00

https://www.asio4all.org/

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

25 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2021-06-14 17:59:33)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 12,041

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

ASIO4ALL is no real ASIO driver with direct access to the hardware.
To my best knowledge it doesn't bypass the Windows Kernel Mixer.

Its only an additional layer on top of all the other audio drivers, packs this all together under his hood
and then talks ASIO protocol to the application.
This way its e.g. possible to use USB microphones with your recording interface and DAW.

Try it out, but I have doubts that this will be the solution.

On top .. he needs to add the ASIO plugin for foobar2000 to be able to load ASIO4ALL as "ASIO driver".
Lets hope that it works for this very old version of foobar2000.

I strongly recommend to make a backup ... (and hope that a proven and tested desaster recorvery strategy exists).

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

26 Reply by Curt962 (edited by Curt962 2021-06-14 18:13:20)

  • Registered: 2019-01-07
  • Posts: 1,462

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

@Ramses,

Yes, and there are Those Considerations as well.   I live now in what is essentially a "Driver-Less" World, and deal with none of it. 
*Fellas?  This is WHY I adore Streaming Devices.  Pure Magic!

I'm in a Happy Place, but as always Ramses, Thank You for sharing your Expert Insights.

Best!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

27 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2021-06-14 20:55:34)

  • KaiS
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2020-02-05
  • Posts: 3,112

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

One thing I found:
If you have an option to disable Realtek Audio’s “shared mode” you could unblock the samplerate switching:

https://www.asus.com/de/support/FAQ/1045991
Scroll down to point 3.
This is Windows 10 (of course), but maybe Server has something comparable.


I do run a Windows XP Pro SP3 PC, equipped with an RME Audiocard.
WinXP is even older than Window Server 2003.

Everything runs 100% smooth and reliable, so getting a (used) card is still my No.1 suggestion.

KaiS's Website

  • Registered: 2021-06-03
  • Posts: 7

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

i managed to find and open the 'Realtek HD Audio Control Panel'
there i saw a list of sample rates: 44,1, 48, 96, 192
48 was active (i changed 48 to 192)
besides this setting, there is nothing interesting in that panel: bits are not mentioned

the 'rme dac' began to display the 'input: SR 192' constantly (previously it was 48 only)


are problems with sample rates totally absent now?
(remembering the fact that 192 is the maximum for the optical connection, if i understand correctly)



speaking about bits:
the 'rme dac' always displays: 16 bit (when paused or stopped), 24 bit (when playing)
it happens in any case:
- foobar or adobe audition
- 8-bit-file or 16-bit-file or 24-bit-file or 32-bit-file

previously KaiS said:

If your entire signal chain indeed always (even with 16bit media) carries 24 Bits all through there is nothing to worry about the volume and Reference Level settings

should i understand the current situation (related to bits) this way?:
my entire signal chain indeed always (even with 8bit media, 16bit media, 32bit media) carries 24 Bits all through
if the answer is 'yes', then:

- what is the reason for such behavior?

shouldn't the 8-bit-files be displayed as 'input: 8 bit'?
shouldn't the 16-bit-files be displayed as 'input: 16 bit'?
shouldn't the 32-bit-files be displayed as 'input: 24 bit'?
(remembering the fact that 24 is the maximum for the optical connection, if i understand correctly)


- why does the screen of 'rme dac' toggles between 16 bit (when paused or stopped) and 24 bit (when playing)?
i mean, why not just keep the '24' inscription?

- is everything completely good concerning the bit aspect? (using the optical connection)

29 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2021-06-15 09:24:20)

  • KaiS
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2020-02-05
  • Posts: 3,112

Re: "adi-2 dac fs" and "adam a5x"

The Bit situation is OK.
ADI-2 just shows what it gets from Realtek, this is a display, not an ADI-2 setting.
Internally ADI-2 constantly works with a much higher bitrate anyway, nothing to setup in ADI-2.

Realtek (or OS) switches to 16 Bit when idle, that’s what ADI-2 shows.


Once volume is changed (in OS in your case) every file, even an 8 Bit one, uses the maximum available Bit depth, as a result from the volume calculation.
Only if a file is feed through the signal path completely unchanged, 8 or 16 Bit stays the same.

This is what RME Bit Test shows: is a signal path fully neutral (this is called “transparent”)?


According samplerate:

The setting for audio driver’s “shared mode” might even be located somewhere in: System / Device Manager / “advanced” settings, or in the “Windows Mixer / advanced settings”.
Sound properties are spread across several locations in Windows, unfortunately.


I don’t know if 192 kHz improves the situation, soundwise.
You still have low quality SRC active.

If the majority of your media is 44.1 kHz it might even be better to select this samplerate to (hopefully) bypass SRC.

Then check with RME Bit Test (read manual page 65), it’s just about playing a little file and get a confirmation message if your signal path is “transparent”.
Get the files, unzip and play the ones with 44.1/16 and 44.1/24, at 100% volume setting (switch off speakers before!).
http://www.rme-audio.de/download/bit_test_wavs.zip

KaiS's Website