1 (edited by nicfontana 2021-07-30 08:07:06)

Topic: Reel conversion: adi 2 FS vs ucx II

Just about to get myself a new interface and
- For a recent project I need to convert, with best quality in mind, a large amount of reel to reel tapes from a revox.
- normally I use my audio interface for recording synths into my daw and potentially routing midi around
So the real question is actually regarding the AD conversion quality of the fireface ucx II compared to adi 2 FS as, apart from this specific conversion project, I would use the first one much more then the latter having midi, more ins/outs and no need of a USB interface to transfer the digital format to my Mac as for with the adi 2.
Would really appreciate some feedback on this
Thanks

Re: Reel conversion: adi 2 FS vs ucx II

adi-2 pro will do ad conversion in a much higher quality than ucx ii, in terms of
1) conversion quality (lower THD and Noise, etc)
2) versatile formats (up to 768khz or DSD256)
3) more gain settings.
whether you'll be able to hear the difference is another story.

The only competitor in the market in terms of quality (lower noise) is motu ultralite-mk5.  you need to record using a 1->4 split cable and summing the signal afterwards to get better result than ADI-2

Re: Reel conversion: adi 2 FS vs ucx II

Thanks @ning
I might try to indulge more in your knowledge if I can...
So:
1 - what is the exact wiring with the Motu? Revox 2 mono out—>motu.... where does the split cable go? Also is there any documentation on this procedure (/how is it called) as I don’t know/understand how the splitting functions/improves the conversion.
2 - I’d rather go for the Rme adi 2 to ensure the best conversion from the tapes but I’d be missing some other functionality when using it for more “normal home studio duties”, primarily, but not just, midi. Would I sacrifice all the good adi 2 pro conversion work if I pair it with a “standard” audio interface for the usb part of the job (transferring onto Mac/pc). I’m thinking of an average interface such as focusrite/audient
Thanks!

4 (edited by ning 2021-07-29 17:02:34)

Re: Reel conversion: adi 2 FS vs ucx II

> 1 - what is the exact wiring with the Motu? Revox 2 mono out—>motu.... where does the split cable go? Also is there any documentation on this procedure (/how is it called) as I don’t know/understand how the splitting functions/improves the conversion.

you can google "xlr splitter cable" and it will have a 1-> 2 split. you connect another two of such cables to the split out, then you have 1-> 4. Simple, isn't it?

in reality you can just solder some cables to either xlr or 1/4 jacks to create a 1->4.

The theory works like this --- if you take average of a few measured samples of the same signal, you'll get lower error (noise).

ADI internally has a ADC of 4 inputs, 2 for each channel. it averages each of the 2 inputs to lower its noise.
There's also a measurement mode mentioned in the manual where you can use the above splitter cable to split a mono signal into the two channel inputs, so you can further lower its noise.

Motu uses the same grade ADC (AK557x series) but with 8 inputs. if you do the similar thing mentioned above you can get lower noise than ADI-2.

the above is just theory. in reality your tape has a much, much higher noise floor so it doesn't matter which audio interface you choose.


>  Would I sacrifice all the good adi 2 pro conversion work if I pair it with a “standard” audio interface for the usb part of the job (transferring onto Mac/pc). I’m thinking of an average interface such as focusrite/audient

any audio interface with aes/coax/spdif inputs should be able to route the ADI-2 converted signal into your computer usb in.
Most RME fireface models have such IOs. For cheap alternatives, as far as my memory serves a few focusrite scarlett models have spdif input. so you can use ADI-2 for just AD conversion, and the scarlett for the rest.

Re: Reel conversion: adi 2 FS vs ucx II

Hi

ADI2Pro versus UFX II: yes the conversion measures a better.
However Revox Reel Tape Recorder is way below the quality of ADC Conversion of both regarding all aspects (noise, THD, IMD, Jitter..).
Revox/Studer uses OpAmp NE5532, NE5534 by the way.

So the decision is more on the other features of either ADI2Pro or UFX II in my view.

I do not understand why you want/need another Interface for USB connection?
You can transfer directly to PC or Mac with UFX II. ADI2Pro probably as well (see manual or aks here).

I record all the time with UFX and UFX II: Vinyl, Tape, Mic.  with no other audio-interface in between.

Peter

Re: Reel conversion: adi 2 FS vs ucx II

My bad for writing adi 2 pro (not in my budget) instead of adi 2 FS!!
So for my understandings the non pro version of the adi 2 only manages the conversion part of the job (adc) while for the rest I’d need a usb interface...

I was actually willing to compare it to the new ucx II but thanks and good point with the revox noise floor.
I guess that using a fair amount of analog synths and gear was another reason, beside the reel to reel conversion, for making a “as-good-as-I-can” adc desirable...


pschelbert wrote:

Hi

ADI2Pro versus UFX II: yes the conversion measures a better.
However Revox Reel Tape Recorder is way below the quality of ADC Conversion of both regarding all aspects (noise, THD, IMD, Jitter..).
Revox/Studer uses OpAmp NE5532, NE5534 by the way.

So the decision is more on the other features of either ADI2Pro or UFX II in my view.

I do not understand why you want/need another Interface for USB connection?
You can transfer directly to PC or Mac with UFX II. ADI2Pro probably as well (see manual or aks here).

I record all the time with UFX and UFX II: Vinyl, Tape, Mic.  with no other audio-interface in between.

Peter

7 (edited by CrispyChips 2021-07-30 10:36:41)

Re: Reel conversion: adi 2 FS vs ucx II

Nicfontana, a warm welcome to the forum which as you can appreciate from the excellent replies you have received, is very beneficial and worth following as there’s always something new to learn.

Rather than base your new purchase decision on one particular task you want to achieve, I think you should reflect more on want you want to use the equipment for in the longer term.

Perhaps writing out a list of all the things you are likely to want to use the device for over a period of time. That should steer you towards the optimal choice.

Basing the choice on the specific quality level of conversion, as has been explained, is unlikely to give any noticeable benefit.

A practical approach embracing all the uses you want to eventually put the equipment to, will give much more.


As an aside, we used revox’s in the studio years ago (where Studer’s were the main machines) sending the signal from mixer channels to the revox’s and using different tape speeds on the revox’s, to give different types of tape delay, which then returned to the mix.

The various speeds on the revox's, gave a fast delay or slow delay mainly, which was mixed with reverb most times. You took me back to a another world ! smile

If you have a lot of synths, that should add clarity to your choice.

8 (edited by vinark 2021-07-30 10:50:27)

Re: Reel conversion: adi 2 FS vs ucx II

There will be no audible nor measurable difference between a adi and a ucx2  when recording a revox or a synth. Only when recording a source with better quality then the ucx2 will the Adi improve measurements. But not audible....

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

Re: Reel conversion: adi 2 FS vs ucx II

Hi

as Crispychips mentioned its good to list all the features you need.

like:
ADC 2 channels
DAC 2 channels
USB
....

One big difference is in handling.

As far as I know, ADI-Type of interfaces have no Totalmix Software

UC, UCX, UFX, UFX II, UFX+ and more have Totalmix software. Totalmix is mixer, routing, limiter, EQ and more. Very useful. Can save many settings of the whole setup (hardware and software settings).

Sound quality of for example Revox B77:
Wow and flutter: 0.08% (7 1⁄2 ips)
Frequency response: 30Hz to 20kHz (7 1⁄2 ips)
Signal to Noise Ratio: 67dB
Total harmonic distortion: 0.5%
Input: 40mV (line), 0.15mV (mic)
Output: 1.55V (line)

S/N, distortion etc. is at least 100x-1000x better with an RME. So I would not worry on sound accuracy.

Peter

Re: Reel conversion: adi 2 FS vs ucx II

+1

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Reel conversion: adi 2 FS vs ucx II

Tape transfer has much more serious quality problems these day, the biggest:
Tape condition.

The main difficulty is called “sticky” tape.
The coating of most older tapes is more or less detoriated, preventing regular playback.

Here is a very good and comprehensive article about this:
https://www.richardhess.com/tape/histor … l_39-2.pdf

BTW:
The regular Revox A-700; A-77 or B-77 are not too suited to play those tapes, too many fixed tape guides (A-700 has 8 fixed contact points) where the tape rubs, sticks and gets damaged.

Revox B-77 can be modded for no fixed contact points in front of the PB head.

Re: Reel conversion: adi 2 FS vs ucx II

Thanks everybody for your knowledge the very useful answers.
So as mentioned, I’ll try and better define my use/future use of the interface:

Usual task:
Record external synths/instruments into my daw. Lots of these lately come more and more from analog sources
Special task (1 of but very important project:
Conversion of reel to reel tapes from my revox pr99

Requirements:
-Budget wise the ucxII is as far as I can go. Wouldn’t mind saving some bucks if I can achieve a good compromise with the adi2 FS
-Audio quality/highly defined conversion
-No fussing with drivers etc
-The more channel the better but two expandable via s/pdif could be enough as I always find more practical going through a mixer (which is a not so special one, which is the only reason why I wouldn’t mind more channels/good quality inputs on the interface)
-I’m really not looking forward to use “total mix”. I’m hating my Mac/pc these days and just use it as a tape recorder really, can’t stand mousing around stuff...
-I do use a lot of midi
-2 outputs + phones is just fine

Basically I would be happy to sacrifice a few more inputs and outputs, the dsp/total mix feature if I could have a better quality sound through the adi2 FS coupled with some other usb audio interface to provide midi and usb (was thinking about a Scarlett or audient  id22) and maybe safe some € too...
I know everybody “loves” total mix but it’s just an overkill for me. I just need a way to import high quality audio (even just 2 ch) from my synth/instruments/modular/sampler or revox into my Mac...
Thanks everyone for the great help!

13 (edited by KaiS 2021-07-31 16:31:23)

Re: Reel conversion: adi 2 FS vs ucx II

You don’t need to use TotalMix to access UFX’s / UCX’s I/Os.
It’s an option, I don’t use it.
The driver is an “install and forget” issue.
I didn’t touch the RME drivers for years.

A mishmash of interfaces runs contrary to your intention of keeping things simple.
Even can adversely influence sound quality, and, more important, introduces different latencies into the various AD and DA connections.


I’m not quite getting your workflow.
You’re not “mousing around”, so you’re not mixing “in the box”?
But you don’t have the DA channel count to mix outboard either?!

Or is it you don’t edit a lot, just mixing in the DAW?
Most very good musicians I know don’t edit, if something’s wrong they just play it right - if you can this is much faster and more musical.


The UFX- (or UCX-) series of interfaces makes a great and straightforward to use “heart” of a studio setup.
Conversion quality is on par with the ADI-2 series, sound-wise, and quality exceeds any source you could connect by a magnitude, technically.

Financially with UFX (more so with UCX) you end up cheaper than with the ADI-2 Pro + mishmash.

The only real cheaper way is ADI-2 FS (the one without display), if it’s 2 Ch I/O is really sufficient, long term.

Re: Reel conversion: adi 2 FS vs ucx II

Hi

UCX II: I guess if you sum up the addtional converters, interfaces you will need, pricewise UCX II could even be chaper.
Additionally you get a rock solid very compact solution.

I use my RME UFX II (UFX very similar to UCX but with more channels, same Totalmix) as multichannel AD, DA, mixer, recoding unit to several software (DAW) playing to speakers, crossover (2x4way=8 channels) headphone preamp, measuring unit (needs AD, DA).
I pensioned almost all other equipment, analog mixer, preamp, headphone amp etc.

Totalmix: as KaiS mentioned you don't need it. However its a so great tool and after some learning very easy to use, you would regret not to use it. And its costless.
The mixer in Totalmix is all digital so you once converted the analog signal you have no degradation as you have in analog mixers. Another feature is very usefull as well, namely saving and loading settings and workspaces. You can set it up for reel recording, say setup1 and setup2 for example as synth recording etc. etc.

Peter

15 (edited by CrispyChips 2021-07-31 16:15:33)

Re: Reel conversion: adi 2 FS vs ucx II

Quote: “Most very good musicians I know don’t edit, if something’s wrong they just play it right - if you can this is much faster and more musical.”


Brilliant, I loved this statement!

I wrote exactly that as being precisely my approach to someone just the other day. I simply capture performance.

With respect nicfontana, you remind me of guitarists I have known whose interest and playing ability leads them to want and need for instance, a Fender American Pro Guitar.

But to save money, they buy a version of the instrument made elsewhere, from clearly inferior, less stable materials, then spend further amounts upgrading the pickups, replacing the potentiometers, switchware and jack sockets.

Finding the instrument doesn’t hold tuning as well as it might, they swap out the tuners. As the intonation or the vibrato arm mechanism is a little pitchy and not stable in returning to pitch, they then replace the bridge/tailpiece and vibrato arm.

However, after they changed the pickups and used it awhile, they found the instrument really didn’t sound the way they anticipated it would, so replaced them again, with further, even more expensive pickups. Although the instrument still didn’t sound the way they really wanted it to, they settled for it the way it was, exhausted as they were, utterly compromised by the fruitless exercise.

It would have been far cheaper and easier simply to buy the American Pro.


With respect nicfontana, there appear to be a few problems with the reasoning in your last post.

That is not meant as a criticism, as I personally find attempting to explain something to someone else, often clarifies aspects for me that I need to think through, more thoroughly. Its a helpful exercise.

I think that’s where you are, needing to think things through better, or you will inevitably become the lamentable musician, described above!


You need good quality audio and conversion with solid drivers. That suggests to me, that RME would be a very good fit for you.

You use MIDI a lot, so need well designed and implemented equipment at the centre of your system, that will handle MIDI data efficiently and effectively in a smooth, reliable manner. As MIDI can have excruciatingly complex issues.

Clearly, though you have undoubtedly become used to working with it, you openly admit you need a better mixer. That is a significant cost you will incur at some point, or it will become qualitative bottleneck, that prohibits the achievement of the higher quality you seek.

You mention “the more channels the better” and indicate that more channels and inputs are desirable on the interface, that you might purchase a somewhat lower quality focusrite or audient device to provide that. Presumably, all the companies involved you mention, are going to supply them to you for free?

Because unless they do, I don’t see how you can argue you can’t afford an ideally specified RME, but can afford to purchase all these supposedly money saving, lower quality devices, that will undoubtedly cost you rather more altogether, in the long run. Ensure you have lower audio quality, and prevent you from achieving the full potential of the quality equipment you do have available.

That’s IF you can get it all to work successfully, as you imagine in your mind, it will?

Something personally, I doubt as I think you will have problems. 

Unnecessary problems, you could easily avoid.

But that comes at a price.


Good recording equipment involves proper investment. That pays dividends over and over again.


KaiS’s statement: “The UFX series of interfaces makes a great and straightforward to use “heart” of a studio setup.”


Sums things up, pretty well!

Though I would encourage you to buy the best possible interface in that range, you could stretch to.

Buy what you really need in the longer run, and just buy it once, rather than needing to upgrade repeatedly. Take your time and look for the best, most straight forward solution, that will fully meet your long term requirements.

Re: Reel conversion: adi 2 FS vs ucx II

Thanks for your helpful insights. I will keep all that in mind. Just not sure I explained myself too well:
The only two options I’m evaluating are Rme, and exactly
Adi 2 FS
Ucx II

In the Adi2 option, and only on this case fir this specific use, the audient/focusright cone into play as the adi 2, from my understandings doesn’t translate to usb but only handles the AD conversion needing someone else to hand the newly digitalized audio to a computer, namely a usb interface which won’t handle any delicate work apart from being fed digital audio through s/pdif and pipe it to the Mac via usb. While I’m at it I might use this primarily-intended-to-be usb interface to hand midi signals as the adi 2 doesn’t have midi too.
Again. This is only in the adi2 FS scenario if this is the one interface over the two that guarantees a better adc (apart from the revox reels conversion, with all the €€€ spent on synths and modules I wouldn’t might to, at least, try and capture every hardly paid frequency or nouances of sound they can emit!! wink

Yes, I mainly use the daw to finalize the song with little to no editing of the single tracks

Yes my mixer sucks but s/pdif connection opens up even the adi 2 FS to more inputs

So I guess it cones down to two important point made in previous posts:
- both interface have much lower noise then old reel to reel tapes played through a Revox pr 99
- by the time I implement usb and midi to an adi 2 through a “cheapo” interface I’m prolly saving 100€ over a ucx II
So...
Yes? wink
The only thing that really sounds like overkill to me is the total mix. Happily I won’t have to use it if I don’t want to. Just thinking of dsp and softwares lately makes me wanna pick back up my high school recorder, play hey Jude and forget about the rest of the music wink


CrispyChips wrote:

Quote: “Most very good musicians I know don’t edit, if something’s wrong they just play it right - if you can this is much faster and more musical.”


Brilliant, I loved this statement!

I wrote exactly that as being precisely my approach to someone just the other day. I simply capture performance.

With respect nicfontana, you remind me of guitarists I have known whose interest and playing ability leads them to want and need for instance, a Fender American Pro Guitar.

But to save money, they buy a version of the instrument made elsewhere, from clearly inferior, less stable materials, then spend further amounts upgrading the pickups, replacing the potentiometers, switchware and jack sockets.

Finding the instrument doesn’t hold tuning as well as it might, they swap out the tuners. As the intonation or the vibrato arm mechanism is a little pitchy and not stable in returning to pitch, they then replace the bridge/tailpiece and vibrato arm.

However, after they changed the pickups and used it awhile, they found the instrument really didn’t sound the way they anticipated it would, so replaced them again, with further, even more expensive pickups. Although the instrument still didn’t sound the way they really wanted it to, they settled for it the way it was, exhausted as they were, utterly compromised by the fruitless exercise.

It would have been far cheaper and easier simply to buy the American Pro.


With respect nicfontana, there appear to be a few problems with the reasoning in your last post.

That is not meant as a criticism, as I personally find attempting to explain something to someone else, often clarifies aspects for me that I need to think through, more thoroughly. Its a helpful exercise.

I think that’s where you are, needing to think things through better, or you will inevitably become the lamentable musician, described above!


You need good quality audio and conversion with solid drivers. That suggests to me, that RME would be a very good fit for you.

You use MIDI a lot, so need well designed and implemented equipment at the centre of your system, that will handle MIDI data efficiently and effectively in a smooth, reliable manner. As MIDI can have excruciatingly complex issues.

Clearly, though you have undoubtedly become used to working with it, you openly admit you need a better mixer. That is a significant cost you will incur at some point, or it will become qualitative bottleneck, that prohibits the achievement of the higher quality you seek.

You mention “the more channels the better” and indicate that more channels and inputs are desirable on the interface, that you might purchase a somewhat lower quality focusrite or audient device to provide that. Presumably, all the companies involved you mention, are going to supply them to you for free?

Because unless they do, I don’t see how you can argue you can’t afford an ideally specified RME, but can afford to purchase all these supposedly money saving, lower quality devices, that will undoubtedly cost you rather more altogether, in the long run. Ensure you have lower audio quality, and prevent you from achieving the full potential of the quality equipment you do have available.

That’s IF you can get it all to work successfully, as you imagine in your mind, it will?

Something personally, I doubt as I think you will have problems. 

Unnecessary problems, you could easily avoid.

But that comes at a price.


Good recording equipment involves proper investment. That pays dividends over and over again.


KaiS’s statement: “The UFX series of interfaces makes a great and straightforward to use “heart” of a studio setup.”


Sums things up, pretty well!

Though I would encourage you to buy the best possible interface in that range, you could stretch to.

Buy what you really need in the longer run, and just buy it once, rather than needing to upgrade repeatedly. Take your time and look for the best, most straight forward solution, that will fully meet your long term requirements.

17 (edited by ramses 2021-07-31 20:03:45)

Re: Reel conversion: adi 2 FS vs ucx II

TotalMix is no overkill, it gives you the needed flexibility to operate your recording interface / setup in an efficient way
and to create monitoring mixes for recording, mixing, mastering with the needed flexibility.

1st of all, if you do not have TotalMix FX, then you need to route everything through USB/FW/TB for monitoring with the known round trip latency which can become quite high (over 10ms) with ASIO buffer sizes greater 128 samples, that are sometimes required to get a certain stability without audio drops.

With TotalMix FX you can route audio to each of the HW outputs individually, from either
- HW inputs in near real time (only the much lower converter lateny) or
- SW playbacks with the RTL (which depends on ASIO buffersize and can become quite high)

It gives you also the flexibility to use loopback recording for each of the outputs individually or to even use TotalMix remote to be able to remote control the device from other devices in the LAN remotely.

You have way more options and possibilities with TM FX compared to operation without. Pro's like KaiS may have found a certain / fixed workflow for their studio where they really do not need it. But this is something that you can not generalize for everybody. If you are e.g. musician, then you need often much more flexibility and this is where RME interfaces with TM FX capabilities shine.
But even in a studio I personally would prefer TM FX simply because of the ability to digitally store and recall your setup at any time and to be able to use remote control features like Auxdevice support in a RME setup.

The RME recording interfaces additionally have certain capabilities / features that are individual to each of the devices, the highest flexibility you have if you buy a larger interface towards the flagship interface product line, e.g.:
- FX chip on board (EQ, dynamics, reverb/delay)
- more powerful headphones outputs
- Autoset supporting you in getting a proper input level for vocals or instrument inputs or to prevent input overload
- Direct USB recording
- Standalone-operation / operation through display
- more variety in different types of I/O ports
- sometimes also variety in terms of different interfaces towards computer
- direct USB port for ARC USB to be able to use it in stand-alone operation
- ...

I personally would base a recording solution an a RME interface with TM FX to have all options.
Size this recording interface properly in terms of I/O ports and features.

If you want to have even more flexibility, then get something like ADI-2 Pro / DAC on top, as it offers phantastic features for your monitoring through headphones and speakers.
It additionally gives you additional protection for ears and equipment because you have
- a real volume knob like with a monitor controller to have level mismatches better under control
- high power outputs to be able to drive even headphones with higher capacity
- slow ramp-up of volume when plugging phones or changing phones/speaker

The Excel in this blog article from me can support you to find a good recording interface for your needs:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … B-MADIfac/
Direct link to Excel: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.ph … -04b-xlsx/

This Blog article gives you an overview how nicely you can add an ADI-2 Pro / DAC to an existing environment on top of a RME recording (or other manufacturers) interface:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … our-Setup/

This gives you an overview about the nice features and model differences between the different implementations of ADI-2 DAC / Pro: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … ses-EN-DE/

This gives you an overview about RME Loopback operation ease of use: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … mentation/

After having owned everything from analog Tascam Mixer through Terratec Pro, Focusrite recording interface I can confirm to you that such a combination of recording interface and ADI-2 DAC/Pro gives you a fantastic setup flexibility. Start with a good RME Recording interface with TM FX first and at a certain point decide, whether you want to expand with the ADI-2 Pro/DAC.
I personally would pick the pro because of
- AD/DA
- one AD, two D/A converters
- two equal phones outputs
- SRC (sample rate conversion)

Here an overview about the evolution of my setup over the past 20y:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … -DURec-DE/

With the combination of (for my personal taste) UFX+ and ADI-2 Pro FS R BE I reached end-game for recording and
with an additional ADI-2 Pro in the HiFi corner I reached end-game for HiFi as well.

With RME you get real features that are a pleasure to work with and to a justified and fair price according to quality and features. Driver support for devices that are even 20y old are a big plus for RME and the value of their devices.

If you later need to sell a used RME device then chances are high to get still a nice amount of cash, because the devices to not loose their value so quickly compared to other manufacturer devices. So this is good invested money.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Reel conversion: adi 2 FS vs ucx II

Long story short:
I’d get the UCX II.
Sooner or later you need it’s extras, then it’s a no-brainer, e.g. to record a mic.

Re: Reel conversion: adi 2 FS vs ucx II

Yes.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13