Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

The return of OVR display at 0dBFS in pre-FX is quite annoying. Almost all music content have several samples (I think you chose 3) reaching 0dBFS, and that includes the more dynamic music. Having three 0dBFS samples in a row does not mean that the music is crushed, this is not an indicator at all. At most, it means that the content has been hard clipped (maybe even soft clipped too).

The way OVR was handled before -- i.e. OVR was showing the real overload of the DAC unit, at +2.5/+1dBFS -- was really meaningful: it meant that some hard clipping was happening in the unit.

In the current state, having OVR showing up at 0dBFS is absolutely meaningless. And really annoying to see!

At least, if some people for some reason like to see OVERS at 0dBFS (even if that does not mean anything), having an option in the Display menu to chose between "show hard clipped content as OVR" and "show unit overload as OVR" would be I think a good compromise.

Besides that, I love my ADI-2 DAC in all aspects!
Thanks a lot for your hard work and dedication.

102 (edited by KaiS 2022-02-06 19:22:00)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

soupiraille wrote:

The return of OVR display at 0dBFS in pre-FX is quite annoying. Almost all music content have several samples (I think you chose 3) reaching 0dBFS, and that includes the more dynamic music. Having three 0dBFS samples in a row does not mean that the music is crushed, this is not an indicator at all. At most, it means that the content has been hard clipped (maybe even soft clipped too).

The way OVR was handled before -- i.e. OVR was showing the real overload of the DAC unit, at +2.5/+1dBFS -- was really meaningful: it meant that some hard clipping was happening in the unit.

In the current state, having OVR showing up at 0dBFS is absolutely meaningless. And really annoying to see!

...

I did discuss the issue with MC:

ADI-2 defines “Over” as a single sample hitting 0 dBFS, for three samples in a row a counter had to be involved, which RME wanted to avoid.


0 dBFS, if showing up more than very occasionally, is in fact “Over” done to the music (so is constantly showing -0.2 dB or such).
No matter how soft, hard or whatever method of clipping was used during production, the music is distorted.
This must not necessarily be audible to everyone on every reproduction system, but to me it’s annoying here quite often.
I mean audibly, I am not listening to music watching the meters usually.


In the recoding studio we are metering this way nowadays, so - NOT doing it like this would simply be wrong or hiding the (sometimes bitter) truth.

In fact we even check for “Inter-Sample-Peaks” or read “True Peak”, which would be much more annoying to you to see!
I would not ask ADI-2 to do that, it’s a complicated issue.


The Pre-FX Meter shows the reality of what comes in, and can and should not refer to what happens at ADI-2’s output.

For the Post-FX Meter, = output, especially for headphones, ADI-2 already has highly sophisticated metering, the “Impedance based Level Meter” that shows the true overloads of the analog amplifier (DAC manual page 36).

103 (edited by soupiraille 2022-02-10 22:22:21)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

KaiS wrote:
soupiraille wrote:

The return of OVR display at 0dBFS in pre-FX is quite annoying. Almost all music content have several samples (I think you chose 3) reaching 0dBFS, and that includes the more dynamic music. Having three 0dBFS samples in a row does not mean that the music is crushed, this is not an indicator at all. At most, it means that the content has been hard clipped (maybe even soft clipped too).

The way OVR was handled before -- i.e. OVR was showing the real overload of the DAC unit, at +2.5/+1dBFS -- was really meaningful: it meant that some hard clipping was happening in the unit.

In the current state, having OVR showing up at 0dBFS is absolutely meaningless. And really annoying to see!

...

I did discuss the issue with MC:

ADI-2 defines “Over” as a single sample hitting 0 dBFS, for three samples in a row a counter had to be involved, which RME wanted to avoid.


0 dBFS, if showing up more than very occasionally, is in fact “Over” done to the music (so is constantly showing -0.2 dB or such).
No matter how soft, hard or whatever method of clipping was used during production, the music is distorted.
This must not necessarily be audible to everyone on every reproduction system, but to me it’s annoying here quite often.
I mean audibly, I am not listening to music watching the meters usually.


In the recoding studio we are metering this way nowadays, so - NOT doing it like this would simply be wrong or hiding the (sometimes bitter) truth.

In fact we even check for “Inter-Sample-Peaks” or read “True Peak”, which would be much more annoying to you to see!
I would not ask ADI-2 to do that, it’s a complicated issue.


The Pre-FX Meter shows the reality of what comes in, and can and should not refer to what happens at ADI-2’s output.

For the Post-FX Meter, = output, especially for headphones, ADI-2 already has highly sophisticated metering, the “Impedance based Level Meter” that shows the true overloads of the analog amplifier (DAC manual page 36).

Thanks for your feedback.

Actually I am a mixing and mastering engineer, and I know how music is made, mixed and mastered, and all the details behind the scene. Any commercial music made in the past few decades -- except maybe jazz and ambient music -- is limited, clipped. When you see a max peak at e.g. -0.2dBFS while listening to a song, it is just a limited, clipped (thus distorted) signal that has been lowered 0.2dB, that's all. "-0.2 max peak" tells absolutely nothing about how the song has been mastered regarding clipping and limiting.

Clipping is a good thing and gives musical results when used properly. Clipping has always been used in the music industry, from the early ages of analog to the most recent digital days. You just can't imagine how much music producers, mixing engineers and mastering engineers (the ones that make the music you listen to) clip their sound!

I stress this again here: music peaking at 0dBFS does not absolutely mean that the sound is crushed, overcooked, overdone. I can have for example a jazz song that I normalize to 0dBFS, so I made absolutely no clipping or limiting, I just raised the volume, but with ADI-2's current firmware the pre-FX meter will show OVERS! This is a nonsense.
A DAC does not have to judge the "quality" of a music based on a dBFS reading. A DAC does not have an opinion.

As a side note, FYI, maybe you're not aware of it but Windows' audio path has a built-in limiter that kicks in at about -0.12dBFS; which has those 2 consequences: 1) it distorts anything peaking above -0.12dBFS (if you're on Windows it may be in some cases a reason why you hear some distortion), and 2) you'll never see a sound peaking above -0.12dBFS when listening to any music or sound using the Windows audio path, in other words ADI's pre-FX metering does not show the real peak numbers in a lot of situations. I am not speaking about ASIO here, but WDM or WASAPI shared mode.

104 (edited by KaiS 2022-02-06 21:08:12)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

What happens if you drive 100 and you speedometer shows 80?
You collect tickets.

I have a hard time to understand why you ask ADI-2 to kind of ignore 0 dBfs?
Especially as you are a colleague of mine, and and should be used to this.


I see you dislike the word “Over”.

As you mention, and of course not only am I aware of the points you made, but use limiting for masters too, 99% of all music is “distorted”, kind of.
Isn’t this “Over”?

Showing 0 dBFS as “Over” – or not – is both based on an “opinion”.
All DAWs I know have the “opinion” it is Over.

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

0 dBFS is not over 0, it's just 0! : )

I think a good compromise would be to get back to semantics, because it's a matter of semantics here:
- I suggest getting back to the previous semantics of "OVR", the one that actually means that something is 'over'; in the case of the ADI-2 DACs, 'OVR' would be shown if the signal wants to go past +2.5/+1 dBFS (depending on the output), which would mean that the signal has actually been clipped.
- For those people who, for obscure reasons that I don't understand, would like to see when Full Scale is reached, color the "0.0" reading in some other color than white.

Again, consider this example: take a wonderful jazz sounding record and normalize it to 0dBSF (this is something I do occasionally) => you'll have peaks reaching 0dBFS but in no way the music has suffered any clipping or limiting. So it is a nonsense to show OVR.

As for DAWs and opinions, actually no: DAWs (I use Studio One a lot) don't show the red light when the signal reaches Full Scale, but only when it goes past -- as you know, DAWs today have floating point audio engines. So they don't give an opinion, they just warn you that the signal has gone past Full Scale (in the Integer domain, that is) and that it has actually been clipped before reaching your audio interface (unless your audio interface accepts floating point audio but that's a niche and rare case).

Let's just get back to semantics and make things that make actual sense. And also not make tools like a DAC give an opinion about the ""quality"" of the audio signal! smile

106 (edited by ramses 2022-02-06 22:47:53)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

https://www.delamar.de/mastering/true-peak-level-14815/

As ADI-2 Pro doesn't seem to be able to count samples at 0dBFS or to support TPL according to ITU (Paper BS 1770) // EBU recommendation R128 it might be the "better/safer" approach that it highlights every sample at 0dBFS as OVR compared to tell nothing at all "because 0dBFS is a valid value".

One sample at 0dBFS would not be a problem, but (according to this article) the majority of music seems to have a problem by having much more consecutive samples at 0dBFS.

The article also tells "Initially there were nine samples, but today it is known that even two samples do not give sufficient overload protection against so-called shoot-throughs or interleaved sample overs.

All this indicates that signals at 0dBFS are "critical" and every sample counts.

I think
- this is what KaiS means here with "What happens if you drive 100 and you speedometer shows 80? You collect tickets." and
- we can live well with the current implemantation and documentation in the manual as we are on the "safer side" by it.

Additionaly it comes to my mind that values over 0dBFS theoretically may not exist and the ADI-2 doesn't do oversampling. so it can only warn at 0dBFS. I hope this makes also sense to you.

The manual documents it this way in ch 15.1: OVR (Over) are displayed in red color at the upper end. For digital I/Os, Over appears when the signal is at the maximum possible level. As usual in digital audio, Over is already displayed even if there is no real overload..

And .. RME must have thought of something for this implementation wink

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub12Pro

107 (edited by KaiS 2022-02-06 23:12:49)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

soupiraille wrote:

...
- I suggest getting back to the previous semantics of "OVR", the one that actually means that something is 'over'; in the case of the ADI-2 DACs, 'OVR' would be shown if the signal wants to go past +2.5/+1 dBFS (depending on the output), which would mean that the signal has actually been clipped.

This would be with meter Post-FX, which shows output level.
This is a special case of the DAC, because of the formerly unusual headroom in the DAC chip.

For input level - Pre-FX, our main topic here, this definition makes no sense as there is no level above 0 dBFS.


My DAW (Sequoia, as requested by German broadcast standards) handles the metering exactly like ADI-2:
Input 0 dBFS, or channel / bus outputs with integer 0 dBFS shows “OVR” - although internally it works with 32 bit float all through, so up to +768 dBFS (or such) no clipping occurs.


Let’s put it this way: except for measurement signals, if you hit 0 dBFS it’s not sure, but very likely that the signal is clipped.
This was the advantage of the 3 samples in a row definition, it differentiates between “just touch” and almost sure “Over”.

108 (edited by soupiraille 2022-02-06 23:31:30)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

ramses wrote:

https://www.delamar.de/mastering/true-peak-level-14815/

As ADI-2 Pro doesn't seem to be able to count samples at 0dBFS or to support TPL according to ITU (Paper BS 1770) // EBU recommendation R128 it might be the "better/safer" approach that it highlights every sample at 0dBFS as OVR compared to tell nothing at all "because 0dBFS is a valid value".

One sample at 0dBFS would not be a problem, but (according to this article) the majority of music seems to have a problem by having much more consecutive samples at 0dBFS.

The article also tells "Initially there were nine samples, but today it is known that even two samples do not give sufficient overload protection against so-called shoot-throughs or interleaved sample overs.

All this indicates that signals at 0dBFS are "critical" and every sample counts.

I think
- this is what KaiS means here with "What happens if you drive 100 and you speedometer shows 80? You collect tickets." and
- we can live well with the current implemantation and documentation in the manual as we are on the "safer side" by it.

Additionaly it comes to my mind that values over 0dBFS theoretically may not exist and the ADI-2 doesn't do oversampling. so it can only warn at 0dBFS. I hope this makes also sense to you.

The manual documents it this way in ch 15.1: OVR (Over) are displayed in red color at the upper end. For digital I/Os, Over appears when the signal is at the maximum possible level. As usual in digital audio, Over is already displayed even if there is no real overload..

And .. RME must have thought of something for this implementation wink

I’m not insinuating RME did not put any thought on the subject. But the fact they changed opinions along the road means the subject has not a definitive answer. And my goal here was to combine both approaches by making propositions.

The issue here is that we take one single indicator — OVR — for two different things — 0dBFS reached, and unit overload.

Going the True Peak rabbit hole for thinking about this problem is not a good idea. For at least two reasons:
- inter sample peaks (ISPs) are handled by DACs, no distortion happen in the analog domain. The early days of digital are way behind us since a long time
- ISPs can reach +3 or even +6 dBFS. Which means that it’s not because your audio signal is peaking under 0dBFS (sample peak) that it will not generate inter sample peaks. Thus, an “OVR” indicator that would appear when a sample has reached 0dBFS, cannot be used as an indicator of potential ISP (let alone that there is absolutely no norm concerning the so called ‘True Peaks’, but that’s another subject).

I am here to make propositions to “reconcile” RME with itself (if I may say so) and provide a solution for the two approaches about the OVR indicator RME have had in the past.
One single indicator cannot do both.

Having an OVR signal popping up for a valid signal is just a nonsense, plus it is very annoying.

109 (edited by soupiraille 2022-02-07 00:10:11)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

KaiS wrote:

Let’s put it this way: except for measurement signals, if you hit 0 dBFS it’s not sure, but very likely that the signal is clipped.

This absolutely not true.

There is absolutely no assumption about clipping in this situation, and I’m not sure why you are obsessed with clipping, clipping is all over the place in music.

But maybe we should be more specific when we say “clipping”. There’s clipping before reaching the DAC unit, and then there’s clipping inside the DAC. A 0dBFS audio signal reaching the DAC can be clipped or not clipped that’s not the DAC’s business — again, e.g. a digital remaster of a quiet record by just normalizing to 0dBFS involves no clipping, there’s no bijection between “0dBFS” and “clipping”   — and as Ramses reminded above, going above 0dBFS is impossible by definition (in the integer domain if we normalise everything for example at 24 bits which is the norm today), so in preFX we cannot have anything going OVER 0 (thus “OVER” has no sense in preFX). What is the DAC’s business though, is what the DAC is doing itself the incoming audio signal, and if at some point the DAC has to clip the audio signal because of DSP etc. overloading the internal headroom, then an OVR indicator makes sense.

DACs cannot make any assumption regarding the incoming signal, they have no way to guess that it has been clipped beforehand or not, and again: who cares if it has?

Let’s go back to semantics, and let “OVR” mean what it means, i.e. that the signal went Over a certain limit and has been truncated/soft clipped/whatever distortion.
Reaching Full Scale is just this: reaching Full Scale, nothing more, nothing less.

@MC to decide of course.

smile

110 (edited by ramses 2022-02-07 00:34:53)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

Ok, got also your point.

Hmm, as the ADI-2 Pro does no oversampling, nor is counting the number of 0dBFS samples
it might be better (and a real alternative or "way out" in this discussion)
to only highlight / display what the device is really able to show and this is that 0dBFS has been reached
but not more, to prevent making potentially false claims about OVR's when it's only based on "assumptions and likelinesses".

Maybe the 0dB mark could be made red and a little bit bigger so that red light at 0dBFS would be easier to see.
Plus documenting this change / the intention in the manual.

And if you need a more granulary view on this then better use DIGIcheck or other tools ...

And std disclaimer ... @MC to decide of course wink Has to be in alignment to their other products to give it a unique shape.

EDIT: question to RME, what is the reason for not counting the number of consecutive samples at 0dBFS ?
Would such a quite simple counter add a certain / unwanted delay ?

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub12Pro

111 (edited by soupiraille 2022-02-07 00:35:01)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

We are on the same page smile This is exactly what I’ve suggested. For people obsessed by the 0, a special colour could be used for the “0.0” reading (and no need I think to count the number of successive 0s, because there’s no norm defining what this number should be). And let the “OVR” appear when the DAC itself is doing some clipping. This is SO simple! smile

112 (edited by soupiraille 2022-02-07 05:42:25)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

What is surprising - to say the least - is that in the DIGICheck help, RME does explicitly state that:

  • methods counting consecutive 0dBFS samples (including count=1 like in the ADI-2) and showing OVR based on this count are a thing of the past (I’m slightly paraphrasing but that’s pretty much it)

  • those methods are unable to differentiate between valid and truly distorted signals (sic)

  • the way to go is to display peak values after Oversampling, without showing any OVR indicator

I say Amen to all of that! So I’m not sure why RME decided to come back to those methods of the past, which are not meaningful, nor scientific, nor useful at all, and misleading...?

113 (edited by KaiS 2022-02-07 10:40:49)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

soupiraille wrote:

What is surprising - to say the least - is that in the DIGICheck help, RME does explicitly state that:

  • methods counting consecutive 0dBFS samples (including count=1 like in the ADI-2) and showing OVR based on this count are a thing of the past (I’m slightly paraphrasing but that’s pretty much it)

  • those methods are unable to differentiate between valid and truly distorted signals (sic)

  • the way to go is to display peak values after Oversampling, without showing any OVR indicator

I say Amen to all of that! So I’m not sure why RME decided to come back to those methods of the past, which are not meaningful, nor scientific, nor useful at all, and misleading...?

Your paraphrased quotation of the DigiCheck help turns it’s statement into the opposite by your insertion of “(including count=1 like in the ADI-2)” - which is exactly NOT counting samples.

The point of DigiCheck Help is:
Underline that even if a recording meters BELOW 0 dBFS it can overdrive the DAC converter into distortions, and to overcome the problem DigiCheck offers an Oversampled “True Peak” meter option.

Look here for a very well made explanation (in German only, sorry):
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/HeadroomUn … uerung.htm
Go down to:
Wenn auch sample-genaue Anzeigen nicht mehr reichen oder: "Intersample-Over"
Hope you understand German, I didn’t find a comparably well made explanation in English.
Maybe someone else finds one.


To anticipate the foreseeable question “Why doesn’t ADI-2 offer such an True Peak Meter option?”.
Main reason: DSP resources

114 (edited by soupiraille 2022-02-07 19:06:48)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

KaiS wrote:

(including count=1 like in the ADI-2)” - which is exactly NOT counting samples.

semantics here smile and my paraphrase was not about counting but about the claim that it’s a thing of the past wink
edit: DIGICheck allows to set a count=1 by the way

KaiS wrote:

The point of DigiCheck Help is:
Underline that even if a recording meters BELOW 0 dBFS it can overdrive the DAC converter into distortions, and to overcome the problem DigiCheck offers an Oversampled “True Peak” meter option.

Look here for a very well made explanation (in German only, sorry):
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/HeadroomUn … uerung.htm
Go down to:
Wenn auch sample-genaue Anzeigen nicht mehr reichen oder: "Intersample-Over"
Hope you understand German, I didn’t find a comparably well made explanation in English.
Maybe someone else finds one.

I don’t read German unfortunately, but this is exactly what I was saying to Ramses in my first answer to him above smile

KaiS wrote:

To anticipate the foreseeable question “Why doesn’t ADI-2 offer such an True Peak Meter option?”.
Main reason: DSP resources

I personally am not asking this question. I was just wondering why RME recently in this firmware came back to an implementation they consider NOT the way to go.
If displaying “OVR” based on the number of consecutive samples reaching 0 (be it 1, 3, 9, or 20) is a thing of the past and tells nothing about whether the underlying signal is valid or truly distorted [=all what I said in this thread before reading the DIGICheck help] why having (re)implemented it in this firmware..? (rhetorical question, I’m not waiting for an answer)

115

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

soupiraille wrote:

The return of OVR display at 0dBFS in pre-FX is quite annoying. Almost all music content have several samples (I think you chose 3) reaching 0dBFS, and that includes the more dynamic music. Having three 0dBFS samples in a row does not mean that the music is crushed, this is not an indicator at all. At most, it means that the content has been hard clipped (maybe even soft clipped too).

The way OVR was handled before -- i.e. OVR was showing the real overload of the DAC unit, at +2.5/+1dBFS -- was really meaningful: it meant that some hard clipping was happening in the unit.

In the current state, having OVR showing up at 0dBFS is absolutely meaningless. And really annoying to see!

At least, if some people for some reason like to see OVERS at 0dBFS (even if that does not mean anything), having an option in the Display menu to chose between "show hard clipped content as OVR" and "show unit overload as OVR" would be I think a good compromise.

Besides that, I love my ADI-2 DAC in all aspects!
Thanks a lot for your hard work and dedication.

Let's see the input stream OVR indicator as what it is, it indicates saturated sample values so maybe it should display as SAT, not OVR.
It is a useful indication that very likely something is wrong with any normal input signal. Only a few test signals (including DC) should ever reach saturated input sample values.

In the unit, the output level is actually reduced with an empty FX processing setup (all off and volume at 0dB wrt DAC chip input) and by that the additional safety headroom is gained that we see.

The DAC chip proper obviously cannot be fed any larger numbers than the largest positive and negative values 24 bits can represent and yet we can increase output level into small positive dB values without additional clipping actually happening. The only way to get that headroom is by reducing the signal (2.5dB for the Pro FSR)

Now if we think of IS-overs, a sine at fs/8 with the right start phase will show ~1dB IS overs when normalized to 0dBFS peak values.
A "straight chain" normal DAC might already show IS-overs issues in the DAC chip itself with that 1dB. Not so in the RME because there still is 1.5dB of additional digital headroom in this example. The DAC will not clip and can tolerate input streams that normally might overrun a simpler DAC. On top of this comes the fact that the used chip in the FSR on itself handles IS-overs quite a bit and does not abruptly start to cut-off the waveform tops. The IS-Over waveforms also depend on DAC filter settings, the steeper the filter the larger and the more likely to clip.

In total, this means the RME is extremely resisilient to producing actual distorted IS-Overs on its analog outputs even with malicious input.

The post-FX meter always correctly shows OVR at the point the sample feed to the DAC chip has been saturated (digital clipping).

As a producer you still might want to know if your input stream is OK and for that the OVR indicator for saturated values is useful but not sufficient alone to check if the input stream does not force any IS-overs. As mentioned by others, no more DSP power to add oversampling peak level meters in the RME, though.

Without (resetable) infinite peak hold all those meters and indicators are not that useful anyway for checking ceiling issues, IHMO.

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

KSTR wrote:

Let's see the input stream OVR indicator as what it is, it indicates saturated sample values so maybe it should display as SAT, not OVR.
It is a useful indication that very likely something is wrong with any normal input signal.

KaiS said: ADI-2 defines “Over” as a single sample hitting 0 dBFS
A single sample hitting 0dBFS has absolutely no meaning regarding saturation, clipping, distortion, nor Inter Sample Peak value.

117 (edited by KSTR 2022-02-08 23:56:27)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

soupiraille wrote:
KSTR wrote:

Let's see the input stream OVR indicator as what it is, it indicates saturated sample values so maybe it should display as SAT, not OVR.
It is a useful indication that very likely something is wrong with any normal input signal.

KaiS said: ADI-2 defines “Over” as a single sample hitting 0 dBFS
A single sample hitting 0dBFS has absolutely no meaning regarding saturation, clipping, distortion, nor Inter Sample Peak value.

Saturated means sample values the extreme ends, that is for 24bit, 2^23-1 and -2^23 (range of two's complement 24bit binary values). And that exactly is what defines 0dBFS.

When you have just one single sample in your stream that is saturated then I would agree all is well. But if it's more, and notable several in a row, this is a tell-tale for digital clipping, or limiting to the extreme etc. Therefore, showing that condition is meaningful as in most cases it will indicate the right thing, outright digital clipping happening somewhere (causing some IS-overs as well almost always).

Pre-FX OVR flashing --> Problem with the input stream in 99.x% of use cases.

118 (edited by soupiraille 2022-02-09 14:57:07)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

Yeah, I know what 0dBFS means in terms of sample value.

Now okay... maybe you are not familiar with how music is made, how music is mixed, and how it's mastered; the very one music you listen to and you like.

Here's a bad news for you: clipping is EVERYWHERE in the music you listen to, and it has been for decades. The same way analog clipping has been taken advantage of by using it as a creative tool, digital clipping is also being used as a creative tool at the production stage, at the mixing stage and at the mastering stage. Did you know that drums are clipped, basses are clipped, vocals are clipped, hole songs are clipped, etc.? It's there, but you don't notice it in the music you enjoy listening to. (Of course I'm not saying it's there is 100% of music that is made, but in very large number -- KaiS said 99%, I don't agree with that number but for this sake of demonstration let's take this number).

Now that you know that, will you suddenly throw away all the records that you love and that you find beautiful sounding and good feeling?? Just because now you know there's clipping?... sic. Of course not. Would you dare to say that 99.x% (your number) of 99% of music (KaiS's number) is a problem?

With your reasoning and the reasoning of the 'clipping police', genres like rock'n'roll would have never existed, because according to you " distorted guitars are wrong, it's clipping all over the place! ".

Please do not go fighting something you don't know about, and which ironically is everywhere in the music you listen to.

Have you ever analyzed electric guitar tracks created from a real DI passing through a digital guitar amp? Please don't because you'll get a heart attack just by seeing those ugly clipped waveforms... Did you know that synthesizers use square wave oscillators, i.e. what you can find worse in terms of clipping? Did you know that some music is made with that? Did you know that mastering engineers clip their converters, and have been doing so for decades? And I can go on with the list.

You know why you are fooling yourself with the theory saying "Pre-FX OVR flashing -> problem with the input stream in 99.x% of cases"? Because if I tastefully and transparently clip and limit a song at the mastering stage and lower the output by just 0.1dB (yes, hundreds of mastering engineers can do that), the 'OVR clipping police alarm' will never switch on on the ADI-2, not a single time. And you'll never notice any clipping or limiting and you'll enjoy the song and you'll be happy. But if I didn't lower the output, then the 'OVR clipping police alarm' would flash and *Suddenly*, the same song that you loved and which had no issue, becomes a problem.

This is a serious lack of knowledge.

NOW, the clipping which is happening inside the DAC -- because of DSP, because of Inter Sample Peaks, etc. -- is something interesting to have an OVR indicator for, for the user to know that some clipping has been introduced by the DAC unit to the sound he/she is listening to, which was not there in the first place. This makes absolute sense. (1)

"OVR" in the digital world came initially from the fear of Full Scale; in the very early days, clipping was considered bad because we just came from the analog world where waveforms were continuous. But the same way some people one day decided "screw the police" and overloaded a guitar amp and made that sound a thing (whether you like it or not, distorted electric guitars became a thing), some people started to exploit digital clipping as a creative tool and say "screw the police", and started to clip drums, basses, vocals, synths, whatever sound source, engineers started to clip their converters, etc. etc. as I said the list can go on.

A famous sound engineer and musician (Dan Worrall) recently made a video where he created a music where every single sample was at 0dBFS. Yes, every-single-sample. lol, he just won the loudness war. And there's absolutely no distortion (I quote Dan Worrall: "To those saying its distorted: there is no distortion. Its a clean, high fidelity recording of two pulse waves with complex modulation.").
=> Who are you to say this is bad? Who are you to say this is not music? Who are you to say there's an issue in the input stream? Who are you to limit creativity? If you don't like it: just pass your way.
Here's the link: https://youtu.be/s_ANEQu5Lto (beware of the heart attack, I warned you smile)

(1) you can read this sentence again because I think we agree on that point

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

every single sample was at 0dBFS

That was so good. "beat that, you millenial snowflake"

120 (edited by KSTR 2022-02-09 12:09:00)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

@soupiraille,

I am familiar with how music is produced for many decades now (both analog and digital recording, mixing and mastering), no need to lecture me.

Clipping or whatever as an artistic choice of course is not to be debated at all.

And sure, lowering the level just a bit on material that is crushed to death (like Metallica's St. Anger, an album that I  love just because of its production style -- and for the music, of course) will remove OVR's and still be as damaged as before (and still produce IS-overs which may or may not be rendered correctly by a DAC.

All of this doesn't not affect the intent and the usefulness of the OVR indicators. I might repeat that I considered them rather useless as they don't sport an adjustable (up to infinite) peak hold.
That's another reason why DigiCheck should be used for a thorough review of the audio stream... or just check things right in the DAW/editor.

121

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

Wait, so since I want to lock my volume and use my integrated amp to adjust the volume of my speakers, I set RME's volume to +7dbu and the volume to +1db, which ends up showing OVR on the meter. But this is fine, since I don't use the EQ for my speakers, yes?

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

exact wrote:

Wait, so since I want to lock my volume and use my integrated amp to adjust the volume of my speakers, I set RME's volume to +7dbu and the volume to +1db, which ends up showing OVR on the meter. But this is fine, since I don't use the EQ for my speakers, yes?


Possibly OVR is from the audio source ......

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

123 (edited by exact 2022-02-09 12:27:44)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

Johannes AU wrote:
exact wrote:

Wait, so since I want to lock my volume and use my integrated amp to adjust the volume of my speakers, I set RME's volume to +7dbu and the volume to +1db, which ends up showing OVR on the meter. But this is fine, since I don't use the EQ for my speakers, yes?


Possibly OVR is from the audio source ......

Peak shows 0.999834, so I'm assuming it's not that?

E: Nevermind, switched to pre-fx and not seeing OVR, only on post-fx

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

exact wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:
exact wrote:

Wait, so since I want to lock my volume and use my integrated amp to adjust the volume of my speakers, I set RME's volume to +7dbu and the volume to +1db, which ends up showing OVR on the meter. But this is fine, since I don't use the EQ for my speakers, yes?


Possibly OVR is from the audio source ......

Peak shows 0.999834, so I'm assuming it's not that?

E: Nevermind, switched to pre-fx and not seeing OVR, only on post-fx

First, let us understand +7dBu +1dB what? dBr?

Second, what is that 0.999834? from where you caught this?

Third, does it happens in every piece of music?

You can try dual meter to observe it, could be your pre-amp input should be a bit lower.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

125

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

Johannes AU wrote:
exact wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:

Possibly OVR is from the audio source ......

Peak shows 0.999834, so I'm assuming it's not that?

E: Nevermind, switched to pre-fx and not seeing OVR, only on post-fx

First, let us understand +7dBu +1dB what? dBr?

Second, what is that 0.999834? from where you caught this?

Third, does it happens in every piece of music?

You can try dual meter to observe it, could be your pre-amp input should be a bit lower.

So I just followed the manual on how to feed a 2V signal to my integrated amp

"For example when the analog output should operate like a typical HiFi unit @ 2 V output level
(equals +8 dBu), set the hardware Ref Level to +7 dBu and Volume to +1 dB. Or +13 dBu and
Volume to -4.5 dB."

The 0.999834 is from the track's peak level that I was listening when I observed the OVR (Lana Del Rey - The Next Best American Record). I assumed if it's past 1.0 then I'd be getting OVR.

And yeah, getting OVRs on the whole album, for example, if I use post-FX. No OVR with pre-FX (still don't quite understand how these two differ, thought they only take EQ into account so I expected them both to show the same result since I don't use any on my speakers).

Am I missing something or am I good?

126 (edited by Johannes AU 2022-02-09 13:21:10)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

exact wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:
exact wrote:

Peak shows 0.999834, so I'm assuming it's not that?

E: Nevermind, switched to pre-fx and not seeing OVR, only on post-fx

First, let us understand +7dBu +1dB what? dBr?

Second, what is that 0.999834? from where you caught this?

Third, does it happens in every piece of music?

You can try dual meter to observe it, could be your pre-amp input should be a bit lower.

So I just followed the manual on how to feed a 2V signal to my integrated amp

"For example when the analog output should operate like a typical HiFi unit @ 2 V output level
(equals +8 dBu), set the hardware Ref Level to +7 dBu and Volume to +1 dB. Or +13 dBu and
Volume to -4.5 dB."

The 0.999834 is from the track's peak level that I was listening when I observed the OVR (Lana Del Rey - The Next Best American Record). I assumed if it's past 1.0 then I'd be getting OVR.

And yeah, getting OVRs on the whole album, for example, if I use post-FX. No OVR with pre-FX (still don't quite understand how these two differ, thought they only take EQ into account so I expected them both to show the same result since I don't use any on my speakers).

Am I missing something or am I good?

1. What model of your amp?

2. Did you try another album?

3. Is the "EQ" you mean is not set to on at the RME? (use Auto-ref is better)

I streamed (Lana Del Rey - The Next Best American Record) from Apple Music, no problem at all.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

127

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

Johannes AU wrote:
exact wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:

First, let us understand +7dBu +1dB what? dBr?

Second, what is that 0.999834? from where you caught this?

Third, does it happens in every piece of music?

You can try dual meter to observe it, could be your pre-amp input should be a bit lower.

So I just followed the manual on how to feed a 2V signal to my integrated amp

"For example when the analog output should operate like a typical HiFi unit @ 2 V output level
(equals +8 dBu), set the hardware Ref Level to +7 dBu and Volume to +1 dB. Or +13 dBu and
Volume to -4.5 dB."

The 0.999834 is from the track's peak level that I was listening when I observed the OVR (Lana Del Rey - The Next Best American Record). I assumed if it's past 1.0 then I'd be getting OVR.

And yeah, getting OVRs on the whole album, for example, if I use post-FX. No OVR with pre-FX (still don't quite understand how these two differ, thought they only take EQ into account so I expected them both to show the same result since I don't use any on my speakers).

Am I missing something or am I good?

1. What model of your amp?

2. Did you try another album?

3. Is the "EQ" you mean is not set to on at the RME? (use Auto-ref is better)

I streamed (Lana Del Rey - The Next Best American Record) from Apple Music, no problem at all.

Amp is NAD C315BEE.Other albums with peaks close to 1.0 do show OVR with post-FX, yes. I'm using Foobar with ASIO. And yeah by EQ I mean RME's PEQ/B&T. I'm only using the DC-protection-filter as far as DSPs go.

Pre-FX never goes OVR, 0.0 is max.

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

exact wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:
exact wrote:

So I just followed the manual on how to feed a 2V signal to my integrated amp

"For example when the analog output should operate like a typical HiFi unit @ 2 V output level
(equals +8 dBu), set the hardware Ref Level to +7 dBu and Volume to +1 dB. Or +13 dBu and
Volume to -4.5 dB."

The 0.999834 is from the track's peak level that I was listening when I observed the OVR (Lana Del Rey - The Next Best American Record). I assumed if it's past 1.0 then I'd be getting OVR.

And yeah, getting OVRs on the whole album, for example, if I use post-FX. No OVR with pre-FX (still don't quite understand how these two differ, thought they only take EQ into account so I expected them both to show the same result since I don't use any on my speakers).

Am I missing something or am I good?

1. What model of your amp?

2. Did you try another album?

3. Is the "EQ" you mean is not set to on at the RME? (use Auto-ref is better)

I streamed (Lana Del Rey - The Next Best American Record) from Apple Music, no problem at all.

Amp is NAD C315BEE.Other albums with peaks close to 1.0 do show OVR with post-FX, yes. I'm using Foobar with ASIO. And yeah by EQ I mean RME's PEQ/B&T. I'm only using the DC-protection-filter as far as DSPs go.

Pre-FX never goes OVR, 0.0 is max.

No problem with your amp.

If you set RME auto-ref on, PEQ/BT will not overload, but you said post-fx, it sounds a bit strange to me .... do not know if it is Foobar problem but it seems not reasonable ...... wish other members can assist you in this matter.....

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

129

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

Johannes AU wrote:
exact wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:

1. What model of your amp?

2. Did you try another album?

3. Is the "EQ" you mean is not set to on at the RME? (use Auto-ref is better)

I streamed (Lana Del Rey - The Next Best American Record) from Apple Music, no problem at all.

Amp is NAD C315BEE.Other albums with peaks close to 1.0 do show OVR with post-FX, yes. I'm using Foobar with ASIO. And yeah by EQ I mean RME's PEQ/B&T. I'm only using the DC-protection-filter as far as DSPs go.

Pre-FX never goes OVR, 0.0 is max.

No problem with your amp.

If you set RME auto-ref on, PEQ/BT will not overload, but you said post-fx, it sounds a bit strange to me .... do not know if it is Foobar problem but it seems not reasonable ...... wish other members can assist you in this matter.....

Was thinking if it could be due to the volume being set to +1db as the manual states I should do if I want the 2V signal for the int. amp.. Dunno though, can't hear any anomalies in the sound whatsoever. Just kinda OCD about this stuff to get it just right once I start fiddling. big_smile

130 (edited by KaiS 2022-02-09 14:02:05)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

exact wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:
exact wrote:

Peak shows 0.999834, so I'm assuming it's not that?

E: Nevermind, switched to pre-fx and not seeing OVR, only on post-fx

First, let us understand +7dBu +1dB what? dBr?

Second, what is that 0.999834? from where you caught this?

Third, does it happens in every piece of music?

You can try dual meter to observe it, could be your pre-amp input should be a bit lower.

So I just followed the manual on how to feed a 2V signal to my integrated amp

"For example when the analog output should operate like a typical HiFi unit @ 2 V output level
(equals +8 dBu), set the hardware Ref Level to +7 dBu and Volume to +1 dB. Or +13 dBu and
Volume to -4.5 dB."

The 0.999834 is from the track's peak level that I was listening when I observed the OVR (Lana Del Rey - The Next Best American Record). I assumed if it's past 1.0 then I'd be getting OVR.

And yeah, getting OVRs on the whole album, for example, if I use post-FX. No OVR with pre-FX (still don't quite understand how these two differ, thought they only take EQ into account so I expected them both to show the same result since I don't use any on my speakers).

Am I missing something or am I good?

As of here on my ADI-2 Pro / latest firmware, the OUTPUT meter shows Over if I set any Volume level above 0 dB.

The Pro FS and all DAC models use a DA-chip that has 2.5 dB headroom ABOVE 0 dBFS, so no need to worry.
This headroom is there to handle InterSamplePeaks, but can be used to cleanly reproduce “normal” mixes at a Volume setting of +1 dB.

If you do so, of course the output is 1 dB louder than the original.
If the Over display is disturbing you, just go back to a Volume of 0 dB.
This doesn’t change anything on the sound.

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

exact wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:
exact wrote:

Amp is NAD C315BEE.Other albums with peaks close to 1.0 do show OVR with post-FX, yes. I'm using Foobar with ASIO. And yeah by EQ I mean RME's PEQ/B&T. I'm only using the DC-protection-filter as far as DSPs go.

Pre-FX never goes OVR, 0.0 is max.

No problem with your amp.

If you set RME auto-ref on, PEQ/BT will not overload, but you said post-fx, it sounds a bit strange to me .... do not know if it is Foobar problem but it seems not reasonable ...... wish other members can assist you in this matter.....

Was thinking if it could be due to the volume being set to +1db as the manual states I should do if I want the 2V signal for the int. amp.. Dunno though, can't hear any anomalies in the sound whatsoever. Just kinda OCD about this stuff to get it just right once I start fiddling. big_smile

May be you try 7dBu again and see the result? (7dBu = 1.734V)

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

132

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

KaiS wrote:
exact wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:

First, let us understand +7dBu +1dB what? dBr?

Second, what is that 0.999834? from where you caught this?

Third, does it happens in every piece of music?

You can try dual meter to observe it, could be your pre-amp input should be a bit lower.

So I just followed the manual on how to feed a 2V signal to my integrated amp

"For example when the analog output should operate like a typical HiFi unit @ 2 V output level
(equals +8 dBu), set the hardware Ref Level to +7 dBu and Volume to +1 dB. Or +13 dBu and
Volume to -4.5 dB."

The 0.999834 is from the track's peak level that I was listening when I observed the OVR (Lana Del Rey - The Next Best American Record). I assumed if it's past 1.0 then I'd be getting OVR.

And yeah, getting OVRs on the whole album, for example, if I use post-FX. No OVR with pre-FX (still don't quite understand how these two differ, thought they only take EQ into account so I expected them both to show the same result since I don't use any on my speakers).

Am I missing something or am I good?

As of here on my ADI-2 Pro / latest firmware, the OUTPUT meter shows Over if I set any Volume level above 0 dB.

The FS (Pro and DAC) models use a DA-chip that has 2.5 dB headroom ABOVE 0 dB FS, so no need to worry.
This headroom is there to handle InterSamplePeaks, but can be used to cleanly reproduce “normal” mixes at a Volume setting of +1 dB.

If you do so, of course the output is 1 dB louder than the original.
If the Over display is disturbing you, just go back to a Volume of 0 dB.
This doesn’t change anything on the sound.

Oh it doesn't bother me at all as long as I know I'm doing nothing wrong here. Indeed going above 0db is the result here. Thank you for giving me peace of mind smile

133 (edited by Johannes AU 2022-02-09 14:02:46)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

This is my setting, Auto ref. set to on.
May be you can try and compare.

https://i.ibb.co/64p7v7v/IMG-4784.jpg

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

KaiS wrote:
exact wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:

First, let us understand +7dBu +1dB what? dBr?

Second, what is that 0.999834? from where you caught this?

Third, does it happens in every piece of music?

You can try dual meter to observe it, could be your pre-amp input should be a bit lower.

So I just followed the manual on how to feed a 2V signal to my integrated amp

"For example when the analog output should operate like a typical HiFi unit @ 2 V output level
(equals +8 dBu), set the hardware Ref Level to +7 dBu and Volume to +1 dB. Or +13 dBu and
Volume to -4.5 dB."

The 0.999834 is from the track's peak level that I was listening when I observed the OVR (Lana Del Rey - The Next Best American Record). I assumed if it's past 1.0 then I'd be getting OVR.

And yeah, getting OVRs on the whole album, for example, if I use post-FX. No OVR with pre-FX (still don't quite understand how these two differ, thought they only take EQ into account so I expected them both to show the same result since I don't use any on my speakers).

Am I missing something or am I good?

As of here on my ADI-2 Pro / latest firmware, the OUTPUT meter shows Over if I set any Volume level above 0 dB.

The Pro FS and all DAC models use a DA-chip that has 2.5 dB headroom ABOVE 0 dBFS, so no need to worry.
This headroom is there to handle InterSamplePeaks, but can be used to cleanly reproduce “normal” mixes at a Volume setting of +1 dB.

If you do so, of course the output is 1 dB louder than the original.
If the Over display is disturbing you, just go back to a Volume of 0 dB.
This doesn’t change anything on the sound.

Ar .... he set the output 1dB higher than the source .... thought he is set at 7+1 = 8dBu ....

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

135

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

Johannes AU wrote:
KaiS wrote:
exact wrote:

So I just followed the manual on how to feed a 2V signal to my integrated amp

"For example when the analog output should operate like a typical HiFi unit @ 2 V output level
(equals +8 dBu), set the hardware Ref Level to +7 dBu and Volume to +1 dB. Or +13 dBu and
Volume to -4.5 dB."

The 0.999834 is from the track's peak level that I was listening when I observed the OVR (Lana Del Rey - The Next Best American Record). I assumed if it's past 1.0 then I'd be getting OVR.

And yeah, getting OVRs on the whole album, for example, if I use post-FX. No OVR with pre-FX (still don't quite understand how these two differ, thought they only take EQ into account so I expected them both to show the same result since I don't use any on my speakers).

Am I missing something or am I good?

As of here on my ADI-2 Pro / latest firmware, the OUTPUT meter shows Over if I set any Volume level above 0 dB.

The Pro FS and all DAC models use a DA-chip that has 2.5 dB headroom ABOVE 0 dBFS, so no need to worry.
This headroom is there to handle InterSamplePeaks, but can be used to cleanly reproduce “normal” mixes at a Volume setting of +1 dB.

If you do so, of course the output is 1 dB louder than the original.
If the Over display is disturbing you, just go back to a Volume of 0 dB.
This doesn’t change anything on the sound.

Ar .... he set the output 1dB higher than the source .... thought he is set at 7+1 = 8dBu ....

I am. +7dBu and +1dB vol. With +7dBu and 0dB vol there's no over, so that was the reason.

136 (edited by Johannes AU 2022-02-09 14:26:24)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

exact wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:
KaiS wrote:

As of here on my ADI-2 Pro / latest firmware, the OUTPUT meter shows Over if I set any Volume level above 0 dB.

The Pro FS and all DAC models use a DA-chip that has 2.5 dB headroom ABOVE 0 dBFS, so no need to worry.
This headroom is there to handle InterSamplePeaks, but can be used to cleanly reproduce “normal” mixes at a Volume setting of +1 dB.

If you do so, of course the output is 1 dB louder than the original.
If the Over display is disturbing you, just go back to a Volume of 0 dB.
This doesn’t change anything on the sound.

Ar .... he set the output 1dB higher than the source .... thought he is set at 7+1 = 8dBu ....

I am. +7dBu and +1dB vol. With +7dBu and 0dB vol there's no over, so that was the reason.

Exactly, at first I thought the 1dB you mean is 1dBr (my bad)... YES, I tried, and it did OVR.

Now you can enjoy the music, even with your setting, still safe for the amp, at the manual it said input max. is 7V ....

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

137 (edited by ramses 2022-02-09 15:36:13)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

Maybe this screenshot of an excel sheet is of use to you when looking at different devices, reflevels, SNR, range of autoreflevel optimizing for SNR/dynamic. Contains also the example from manual for fix 2V settings for the RCA outputs of the ADI-2 DAC. Doesn't fully match because it's based on fix dBu units with 0.5 dB increments.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/673jsin3q3m1q5s/2022-02-09%20ADI-2%20DAC%2BPro%20Ref%20Level%20Settings.jpg?dl=1

In Firefox you need sometimes to load the graphic 2 times until you get a pulldown menue to open it in Windows Foto Display, there you get is then in better quality (compared to the rendering of Firefox). Don't know how this is with other OS/Browsers.

BR Ramses
UFX+, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub12Pro

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

KaiS wrote:

As of here on my ADI-2 Pro / latest firmware, the OUTPUT meter shows Over if I set any Volume level above 0 dB.

On the DAC (not Pro), latest firmaware, for the Line Out: no OVR is displayed on the post-FX meter if I set the Volume above 0 e.g. at +1. OVR shows up when I put the volume at +2.5
I guess this is a discrepancy between the DAC and the Pro. Why? I don't know

KaiS wrote:

The Pro FS and all DAC models use a DA-chip that has 2.5 dB headroom ABOVE 0 dBFS, so no need to worry.

But the headroom for the Phone Out is actually +1dBFS.
Line Out and IEM (DAC) have indeed a +2.5dBFS headroom.

139 (edited by KaiS 2022-02-11 15:13:41)

Re: Firmware Update ADI-2 DAC 66 / 47 and ADI-2 Pro 259 / 111

soupiraille wrote:
KaiS wrote:

As of here on my ADI-2 Pro / latest firmware, the OUTPUT meter shows Over if I set any Volume level above 0 dB.

On the DAC (not Pro), latest firmaware, for the Line Out: no OVR is displayed on the post-FX meter if I set the Volume above 0 e.g. at +1. OVR shows up when I put the volume at +2.5
I guess this is a discrepancy between the DAC and the Pro. Why? I don't know

KaiS wrote:

The Pro FS and all DAC models use a DA-chip that has 2.5 dB headroom ABOVE 0 dBFS, so no need to worry.

But the headroom for the Phone Out is actually +1dBFS.
Line Out and IEM (DAC) have indeed a +2.5dBFS headroom.

As stated, I have the ADI-Pro 1st edition.
It’s with the AK4490 DAC chips that doesn’t have the headroom like the “FS”- models.