Topic: RME ADI-2 Pro Balanced current limit

Hi I had a question about the ADI-2 Pro's balanced maximum output because I think the manual is a bit ambiguous.
The manual states in paragraph 8.1 that:

"while a maximum output current of around 260 mA per channel will result
in lots of power for lower impedance phones (1.5 Watts @ 32 Ohm)."

for unbalanced operation. So far so good.
In paragraph 34.6 about balanced output it is stated that:

"Fortunately the current limit circuit in the ADI-2 Pro takes care of that and prevents the output power to rise higher than
3 Watts,"

It does not state maximum output current, but I would personally infer that for balanced it becomes 520 mA per channel since 260 mA is 1.5 W.

I was wondering about this since I was calculating the maximum SPL the Pro would drive the Hifiman Susvara with.
According my calculations the maximum balanced output voltage of 19.5 V would only induce 19.5/60 = .325 A = 325 mA.
However this would mean an output power of 19.5 * .325 = 6.337 W, about twice the maximum output power of 3W.
Even if the current limit is not doubled we would hit the limit at around 15.5 V, and 15.5 * .26 = 4 W which is still above spec.

Now the manual implies that the only thing limiting the output power is the current limiter, does that mean that is actually possible to have more than 3 Watts per channel of output power for higher impedance headphones? Or is there another measure in place to limit output to 3 Watts per channel?

I'm not saying it matters a lot as 3W will produce 118 db SPL which is more than enough, but this issue has aroused my curiosity about the workings of the Pro.

Many thanks in advance for clarification!

2 (edited by KaiS 2022-05-09 13:36:11)

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro Balanced current limit

In balanced operation the current flows from one amp through the headphones to the other amp, opposed to single ended where the current flows to ground, like this:

Single ended: [AMP (+) ] -> [headphone] -> [Ground connector]
Balanced: [AMP (+) ] -> [headphone] -> [AMP (-) ]

So with balanced there‘s no more current available then single ended, as the same current has to flow through both amps.
265 mA into 14 Ohm (28 Ohm balanced, see below) is ADI-2 Pro’s limit.


This is why in the lower diagram manual page 90, Current/Voltage vs. Impedance, there are no extra curves for balanced operation.
There is a difference, in balanced the impedance for maximum current would be doubled, so the limit is 265 mA into 28 Ohm.
Think of it as a doubled single sided connection with the headphones in the middle, with a “virtual zero, or ground” in the center of the headphones conductor.


Anyway, this is academic, as you cannot change your Susvara’s impedance.

The upper diagram page 90, Power vs. Impedance, provides all necessary information:
At 60 Ohm the red (balanced) trace shows 3000 mW.


How much louder would 6000 mW be, compared to 3000 mW?
Just 3 dB, not a night and day difference.


I found that ADI-2 Pro has sufficient power for even much “harder to drive” headphones, like my AKG K-1000: 120 Ohm, 74 dB / mW, and needs significant sub boost (which eats power) to sound good.

Guess what: I use it single ended on ADI-2 Pro and never run out of steam.


The power estimates you find all over the net are for real headbangers, or deaf people - which is the same anyway, as you soon get deaf with high sound levels.

In digital even headroom is of no concern, as there are no peaks above digital fullscale, and ADI-2’s meters clearly show how much headroom is left.
I always got plenty, even with highly dynamic classical music.

3 (edited by buwaldaf 2022-05-09 14:26:33)

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro Balanced current limit

Thank you very much for the explanation! Now that you say it I was indeed wondering why the Current/Voltage vs. Impedance graph didn't have separate balanced curves. Thanks for clarifying.

I wholeheartedly agree that the ADI-2 Pro is the ultimate solution for the paranoid audiophile who thinks he is not driving his headphones to their "full potential". The digital volume control + distortion indicator on the level meter will dispel any and all fears regarding this, and I never want to go back to a conventional dac + amp setup.

There is one question I still have, I don't think my simple calculations using Ohm's law are incorrect, putting 15.5 Volts across a 60 Ohm load means 260 mA of current will start to flow which is 4 Watts.
Following this logic the maximum power draw would occur exactly where 19.5 volts causes the maximum .265 A of current to flow and draw 5.17 W. This happens at 73.6 Ohms, not 64 like the peak in the graph.

However the Current/Voltage vs. Impedance graph on page 90 shows only 150-160 mW of power into 60 ohms, not the maximum of 265.
So I'm wondering is there a flaw in my reasoning somewhere? Am I misapplying Ohms law? Or is the current limiter actually a Wattage limiter?

4

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro Balanced current limit

buwaldaf wrote:

However the Current/Voltage vs. Impedance graph on page 90 shows only 150-160 mW

mA

buwaldaf wrote:

of power

current

buwaldaf wrote:

into 60 ohms, not the maximum of 265.
So I'm wondering is there a flaw in my reasoning somewhere?

Check the graph again. You have only 8 V at that impedance.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

5 (edited by rawac 2022-05-09 15:51:01)

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro Balanced current limit

As KaiS wrote: 0.265 mA is the Maximum current with 14 Ohm load in high power mode, single ended.
Voltage in this case is 3.7 Volt. 3.7 V x 0.265 A = 0.98 W and 3.7 V / 0.265 A = 14 Ohm.

In high power mode the maximum voltage depends on the load, it is not constant, 19.5 Volts (=2 times 9.75 V single ended) is only possible in balanced mode above 256 Ohm. How much the voltage drops with descending impedance is shown with the red line.

There is a small difference i can not explain. At 64 Ohm the diagram shows 8.4 V and 0.15 A in high power mode, single ended.
This would be 8.4 V  x 0.15 A = 1.26 W (which fits good to the diagram Power vs. Impedance above).
But this would be also be 8.4 V / 0.15 A = 56 Ohm - instead of 64. Perhaps the diagram is just to small for exact readings.

64 Ohm in balanced mode would be 2 times 6.8 V (for 32 Ohm single ended) = 13.6 V with 0.22 A , makes 3 W. Again it fits to the diagram Power vs. Impedance above. 13.6 V / 0.22 A is 61.8 Ohm, an even smaller difference.

Oops, MC was faster.

Ralf
(ADI-2 Pro FS with ThinkPad Yoga L13, Dynaudio Focus 600 XD or Focal Clear — and a lot of Jazz)

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro Balanced current limit

Thanks to you both for the replies, for some reason I thought the maximum output voltage was load independent as long as the current limit was not reached.
Even though it is quite obvious from the graph, I don't remember ever seeing this explicitly stated in the manual, I will go reread it smile

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro Balanced current limit

After giving it some thought I've decided that what I was confused about is that the current limiter does not simply limit the current to 265 mA regardless of load, but limits the current such that the maximum wattage is also not exceeded.

Personally I would say it then acts as both a current limiter (for low impedance headphones) and a wattage limiter (for medium impedance headphones) but that is just a matter of semantics really as you can limit wattage by limiting current.

Now the statement "Fortunately the current limit circuit in the ADI-2 Pro takes care of that and prevents the output power to rise higher than 3 Watts," makes much more sense. Thank you all for your patience.

8 (edited by ning 2022-05-09 17:45:13)

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro Balanced current limit

buwaldaf wrote:

After giving it some thought I've decided that what I was confused about is that the current limiter does not simply limit the current to 265 mA regardless of load, but limits the current such that the maximum wattage is also not exceeded.

Personally I would say it then acts as both a current limiter (for low impedance headphones) and a wattage limiter (for medium impedance headphones) but that is just a matter of semantics really as you can limit wattage by limiting current.

Now the statement "Fortunately the current limit circuit in the ADI-2 Pro takes care of that and prevents the output power to rise higher than 3 Watts," makes much more sense. Thank you all for your patience.

Close. The limiter is implemented via voltage comparator sensing the voltage drop of a thermal sensitive limiting resistor R, which does two things 1) current limiting: if the current passing through R is higher, it gets larger voltage drop. the comparator triggers.  2) overheat protection: R is also thermo sensitive. If the circuit gets warm, usually because you use it to drive a large load that consumes lots of power, R's resistance gets larger thus have higher voltage drop. the comparator circuit triggers.

You don't need to worry about the detail. The max power changes according to your room temperature, as discussed above, so it's not a fixed value.
All you need to know is ADI-2 has smart circuit design.
As long as it can drive your headphone sufficiently loud even in a warm room, you're good.

9 (edited by KaiS 2022-05-10 08:07:39)

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro Balanced current limit

1. There is no wattage limiter.

2. The thermal protection @ning explained does not affect the short term current, voltage or wattages, thus can be ignored for the moment.

3. The current limiter is in the amp chips.
The maximum current is (load and) voltage dependent, look at OPA1688’s specsheet, Figure 9, for some details.
The behavior is complex and influenced by the fact that 6 channels of OPA1688 amps are summed by 47 Ohms resistors.

The diagrams manual page 90 contain all the relevant information about the result.


4. When looking at the lower diagram page 90:

For balanced:
Look at 1/2 the impedance values that you actually connected, then double the voltage readout, but not the current readout.

E.g. for Susvara’s 60 Ohm:
Look at 30 Ohm and read: 6.7 V x 2 = 13.4 V x 215 mA.= ~2900 mW.
This corresponds with the upper diagram for balanced power into 60 Ohm.
This upper chart shows what finally matters, the max. output power into your headphones.

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro Balanced current limit

Hi KaiS, thank you for the additional information. It turns out that things are more complex than I thought and I'm learning more about the inner workings of amplifiers by the minute. It's not that I don't trust the charts in page 90, I'm just quite interested in why they are the way they are. 

This can be inferred from the charts but it wasn't completely clear to me that there is no simple flat line limiter that limits the current to 265 mA for any load, or limits the Wattage to 3W for any load.
There are only the limitations of the opamps which in balanced operation happen to max out at 265 mA for a 28 ohm load, and happen to max out at 3 Watts for a 64 ohm load and are otherwise perfectly described by the curves from the lower diagram of page 90.

Final question, is the limiting circuit in the OPA1688 chips any different from what would be found in a "normal" amplifier?

11 (edited by ning 2022-05-10 03:44:40)

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro Balanced current limit

> 3. The current limiter is in the amp chips.
The chip has current limiting / overheat protection feature in that if that amount of current is reached it completely shuts itself off.
But it doesn't have an output pin to indicate such case is reached.
ADI-2 has additional current limiting based on the above current limiting resistor.
Otherwise there's no way for the "34.20 Impedance based Level Meters PH 1-4" to work correctly.

> Final question, is the limiting circuit in the OPA1688 chips any different from what would be found in a "normal" amplifier?
what do you mean by normal? Many op amps and buffers have current limiting to protect itself from overloading. OPA1688 is nothing special.

12 (edited by KaiS 2022-05-10 00:44:42)

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro Balanced current limit

buwaldaf wrote:

Final question, is the limiting circuit in the OPA1688 chips any different from what would be found in a "normal" amplifier?

The classical power amplifier design has 4 stages of protection:

1. A simple overcurrent limiter that detects the voltage through the final stage‘s emitter resistors and clamps the drive voltage.
If not carefully designed, this one is notorious for causing power transistor failures when used with reactive loads like typical loudspeakers.

2. A fast blow fuse in the power output.

3. A thermal protection on the heatsink that either reduces or cuts the audio, or the PSU voltage.

4. A thermal switch inside the mains power transformer that cuts the primary.


The OPA1688, according to it‘s specs, uses advanced variants of 1. and 3.

RME added the circuit @ning described, and a 47 Ohms resistor in each of the 6 OPA1688 outputs that are used per channel.

13

Re: RME ADI-2 Pro Balanced current limit

KaiS and ning: you are both right. But indeed the main power limit is not the 'heated' protection, but the chip itself. The chip's behaviour is also a bit influenced by the 47 Ohm resistor. Everything together gives the curves shown in the manual. And before someone asks: you don't gain anything by using lower output resistors. Instead the chips heat up more and get more stressed. Plus overall stability is reduced.

All these parts have been carefully selected to work together, building a unique, very stable and robust headphone amp.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME