1 Topic by TheDrunkenSniper (edited by TheDrunkenSniper 2022-05-18 00:08:48)

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Topic: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

Hello,

I've been running my ADI-2 now for well over a year with my Mac Integrated (XLR connection) and my BlueSound Node2i (optical).  That has been perfect without any issues.  Reference level is set to "Auto".  When there is no music playing the audio level indicators of the RME drop down to nothing (as it should be) with the volume level set to "0".

Last evening, I upgraded to the new Lumin U2-Mini.  Same connections.

Everything *sounds* fine (improved even), however after a track is done being played (regardless if it's via streaming service, or from a USB hard drive) the audio levels don't completely drop down.  With no track being played the levels only drop down to -24.2 (L) and -32.4 (R).  This was not an issue with the Node2i, it only seems to be present with the Lumin.

Any ideas?  Thanks very much.

https://i.ibb.co/gFFcL83/download.png

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

Can you somehow measure if the signal is present at the ADI input as opposed to the ADI output?

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

And does it occur when you move ADI away from the U2 mini?

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

fieldstu wrote:

And does it occur when you move ADI away from the U2 mini?

One correction:  I'm not using optical, i'm using coax (which was exactly what I used with the Node2i)

In the Lumin settings I can turn off each digital output, so I shut down all other outputs.  No change.

When I switched the coax output setting to OFF, all levels went down.  When I immediately turned coax back on again they remained (for the sake of this explanation) at "0".  When I began to stream music, levels went up to normal level and when I hit pause they did NOT drop down to "0" but rather back to -24.2 and 32.4 again.  These levels change slightly each time.  Not by much, but enough to point out that they aren't static.

I moved the RME away from the Lumin, but behavior doesn't change at all.

5 Reply by fieldstu (edited by fieldstu 2022-05-13 18:00:31)

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

1) If you connect via optical instead of coax, do you still see the unwanted audio level present?
2) If you leave the lumin coax set to on but disconnect coax cable on the lumin side, do you still have the unwanted audio level present in RME ADI DAC?
3) double checking, is RME ADI DAC synched properly to Lumin clock?

ADI2, Digiface, ARC

6 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2022-05-13 18:20:41)

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

TheDrunkenSniper wrote:

...after a track is done being played (regardless if it's via streaming service, or from a USB hard drive) the audio levels don't completely drop down.  With no track being played the levels only drop down to -24.2 (L) and -32.4 (R)...
https://i.ibb.co/gFFcL83/download.png

Look at the Analyzer lowest band.
Obviously there is a static DC present.

Does this persist when the music is playing?
A workaround would be to activate ADI-2’s Dig. DC Protection “Filter” option, last entry under:
I/O / ## Output / Settings.

KaiS's Website

7 Reply by fieldstu (edited by fieldstu 2022-05-13 19:37:55)

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

Via optical connection regardless of ADI2 DC protection filter set to Off/On/Filter there should be no signal at all when playing is stopped. I suspect coax, but it depends on the 1-3 questions answer.

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

KaiS wrote:
TheDrunkenSniper wrote:

...after a track is done being played (regardless if it's via streaming service, or from a USB hard drive) the audio levels don't completely drop down.  With no track being played the levels only drop down to -24.2 (L) and -32.4 (R)...
https://i.ibb.co/gFFcL83/download.png

Look at the Analyzer lowest band.
Obviously there is a static DC present.

Does this persist when the music is playing?
A workaround would be to activate ADI-2’s Dig. DC Protection “Filter” option, last entry under:
I/O / ## Output / Settings.

And this was what I was finally coming to actually right before I noticed your post, and now seeing it, you have confirmed it.

Trying this particular track from Qobuz and then turning DC Protection to ON gave me the error message of a static dc current detected.

I discovered that when I *paused* the track during streaming that the issue shown in the photo occurred.  However, if I let the track complete it was no longer an issue.  It's only noticeable during a pause in the stream, and that's visually.  I do not hear any audible difference.  During active streaming this does not persist.

The odd part about all of this is that this wasn't an issue at all using the Node2i.

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

fieldstu wrote:

1) If you connect via optical instead of coax, do you still see the unwanted audio level present?
2) If you leave the lumin coax set to on but disconnect coax cable on the lumin side, do you still have the unwanted audio level present in RME ADI DAC?
3) double checking, is RME ADI DAC synched properly to Lumin clock?

To answer your questions:

1:  That is my next experiment.  I don't have an optical on hand but will be grabbing one shortly.
2:  No.  The moment any side coax is disconnected, lumin or RME, the unwanted level goes away.
3:  Yes.  RME shows SYNC

10 Reply by MC

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

That seems to be a bug in the Lumin U2-Mini. On Pause it should clear its internal buffers and send out nothing or digital zero. Instead it holds the last played sample and continuous to send that one out. With no sample change anymore this then represents a digital DC value.

They need to fix this.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

MC's Website

11 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2022-05-14 09:17:57)

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

TheDrunkenSniper wrote:
KaiS wrote:

A workaround would be to activate ADI-2’s Dig. DC Protection “Filter” option, last entry under:
I/O / ## Output / Settings.

Trying this particular track from Qobuz and then turning DC Protection to ON gave me the error message of a static dc current detected.

Read again, I suggested to use the option “Filter”, NOT “ON”.


As mentioned by @MC, the Lumin U2 mini holds the last value when stopped, which well can be full-scale, worst case, and damage speakers or ‘phones.

Therefore my suggestion:
Filter out the DC before it reaches anything sensitive.

KaiS's Website

12 Reply by TheDrunkenSniper (edited by TheDrunkenSniper 2022-05-14 15:33:50)

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

KaiS wrote:
TheDrunkenSniper wrote:
KaiS wrote:

A workaround would be to activate ADI-2’s Dig. DC Protection “Filter” option, last entry under:
I/O / ## Output / Settings.

Trying this particular track from Qobuz and then turning DC Protection to ON gave me the error message of a static dc current detected.

Read again, I suggested to use the option “Filter”, NOT “ON”.


As mentioned by @MC, the Lumin U2 mini holds the last value when stopped, which well can be full-scale, worst case, and damage speakers or ‘phones.

Therefore my suggestion:
Filter out the DC before it reaches anything sensitive.

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear:  I did put it on DC Filter.  I was using the ON setting for testing purposes, not as a production value.  After I finished my testing, I put it back onto DC Filter.

All that being said, i'm taking what Matthias mentioned and pushing the issue with Lumin.

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

Update:

I replaced coax with Auidioquest Carbon Optical with no change whatsoever.

https://i.ibb.co/DYf0Bcp/C6-DB7117-23-F5-440-F-83-ED-40-F2-B33-CFB79.jpg

14 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2022-05-15 06:06:43)

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

TheDrunkenSniper wrote:

I replaced coax with Auidioquest Carbon Optical with no change whatsoever.

No surprise, as it’s a software issue with the Lumin U2 mini.

KaiS's Website

15 Reply by jltbalt1 (edited by jltbalt1 2022-05-15 16:38:39)

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

Im following this thread closely because I am also considering replacing my Bluesound Node N130 with the Lumin U2 Mini. I use an ADI-DAC FS. I know that the problem described here is with the ADI Pro unit, so I was wondering if it is likely it will also be a problem with the ADI-2 DAC FS? I currently connect to the ADI-2 via USB.Thanks!

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

jltbalt1 wrote:

Im following this thread closely because I am also considering replacing my Bluesound Node N130 with the Lumin U2 Mini. I use an ADI-DAC FS. I know that the problem described here is with the ADI Pro unit, so I was wondering if it is likely it will also be a problem with the ADI-2 DAC FS? I currently connect to the ADI-2 via USB.Thanks!

The issue is NOT with the ADI-2.

It's fully on the Lumin side.  I suspect with this barely just being available, and most DAC's out there not having the same display abilities as the RME, that the issue is probably not even observed by most consumers.  It's not audible.  The issue doesn't exist when connected to the Node2i, using the exact same connections.

I would guess this issue affects all DAC's connected to the Lumin U2 Mini, it's just easily *visible* connected to the RME.

For what it's worth, the sound quality upgrade between the Lumin and the Node2i (transport only) is far better than expected.

This is a bug that needs to be fixed, and I have been in contact with my dealer and Lumin to see what the next step is.

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

TheDrunkenSniper wrote:
jltbalt1 wrote:

Im following this thread closely because I am also considering replacing my Bluesound Node N130 with the Lumin U2 Mini. I use an ADI-DAC FS. I know that the problem described here is with the ADI Pro unit, so I was wondering if it is likely it will also be a problem with the ADI-2 DAC FS? I currently connect to the ADI-2 via USB.Thanks!

The issue is NOT with the ADI-2.

For what it's worth, the sound quality upgrade between the Lumin and the Node2i (transport only) is far better than expected.

This is a bug that needs to be fixed, and I have been in contact with my dealer and Lumin to see what the next step is.

Yes, I understand that the bug is on the Lumin side, and since it's not an audible problem I'm not too worried because Lumin is pretty good with upgrades/fixes. Thanks for reporting it. I use a Lumin D2 in another audio system. Thanks for letting me know about the Node 2i vs the U2 Mini. That's not surprising. You probably also know the last BluOS update created a major problem for people streaming Qobuz. Fortunately I have not installed the update. Thanks again! Jeff

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

If you connect Lumin Uxx via optical there should be no lo freq issue at all. It seems to exist because of the coax electrical connection.

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

fieldstu wrote:

If you connect Lumin Uxx via optical there should be no lo freq issue at all. It seems to exist because of the coax electrical connection.

The issue persists even with swapping out coax for Audioquest Carbon Optical.  See above photo.

I'm going with the suggestion by Matthias above that this is a bug on the Lumin side.

20 Reply by fieldstu (edited by fieldstu 2022-05-15 23:07:22)

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

+1 it's U2 mini

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

Good preliminary news:

Initially I had my dealer contact Lumin and they pretty much gave them a standard (and somewhat disappointing response):

"If he has a display problem only on his specific brand of DAC, and no demonstrable problem acoustically with the U2Mini, our service will likely do nothing, either here or in the factory but we will inform the factory and ask for their advice.

Is the client experiencing this problem with the coax Digital and the optical or just the optical connection?

We cannot guarantee display compatibility with anyone’s external DAC out of the hundreds and hundreds of DAC brands out there."

That's actually a very shitty response and not what I would expect from Lumin.

*HOWEVER*

I contacted Lumin separately and got a response from Peter Lie and within 24 hours he had a new firmware version for me to test.  15.0a

This corrected my issue from my preliminary tests.  All sound goes to digital zero after playing and pausing.  Additionally, it got rid of this odd "pop" sound when starting a new track.

So at this point, it's looking very good.  The U2 Mini sounds incredible and now without any bugs that were bothering me.

Not happy with one support response, but extremely happy with Peter Lie's response with a new firmware version in such a short period of time!

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread to help me isolate the issue.  Special thanks to Matthias as his opinion that it was absolutely an issue that Lumin needed to resolve held weight with Lumin.

22 Reply by MC

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

Thumbs up for Mr. Lie (and Lumin)!

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

TheDrunkenSniper wrote:

Good preliminary news:

Initially I had my dealer contact Lumin and they pretty much gave them a standard (and somewhat disappointing response):

"If he has a display problem only on his specific brand of DAC, and no demonstrable problem acoustically with the U2Mini, our service will likely do nothing, either here or in the factory but we will inform the factory and ask for their advice.

Is the client experiencing this problem with the coax Digital and the optical or just the optical connection?

We cannot guarantee display compatibility with anyone’s external DAC out of the hundreds and hundreds of DAC brands out there."

That's actually a very shitty response and not what I would expect from Lumin.

*HOWEVER*

I contacted Lumin separately and got a response from Peter Lie and within 24 hours he had a new firmware version for me to test.  15.0a

This corrected my issue from my preliminary tests.  All sound goes to digital zero after playing and pausing.  Additionally, it got rid of this odd "pop" sound when starting a new track.

So at this point, it's looking very good.  The U2 Mini sounds incredible and now without any bugs that were bothering me.

Not happy with one support response, but extremely happy with Peter Lie's response with a new firmware version in such a short period of time!

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread to help me isolate the issue.  Special thanks to Matthias as his opinion that it was absolutely an issue that Lumin needed to resolve held weight with Lumin.

Wow! That's great news! Congratulations on your efforts to identify, report and have fixed a bug in the U2 Mini. I assume this patch will be applied to all new units upon powering up. Hope so. Thanks again!

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

jltbalt1 wrote:

Wow! That's great news! Congratulations on your efforts to identify, report and have fixed a bug in the U2 Mini. I assume this patch will be applied to all new units upon powering up. Hope so. Thanks again!

Yes, I spoke with Lumin last evening and confirmed that my issues were resolved completely.

They will shortly be releasing a public firmware update that incorporates the fixes for my issue and a couple other non-related minor bugs.

I asked about what the issue was and I was told that it basically had to do with the new processor of the U2 Mini that "behaved differently from the previous processor in our other products".

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Re: ADI-2 Pro and Lumin U2-Mini Audio Level Question (SOLVED)

Yup, and as the RME makes everything measurable and visible you were one of the few who noticed I'm sure. Glad it's solved now!

ADI2, Digiface, ARC