Topic: ADI 2 vs Analog

Hi everybody,

As most people here I am pretty much impressed with the sound quality of the RME Adi 2 Dac.

As long as I do not compare against my pretty „normal“ analogue source: Thorens TD 160, Ortofon 2M Bronze, Musical fidelity V90 lps

Everything goes into a naim nait xs2 driving a pair of Harbeth P3ESR XD

The Dac is connected to bluesound node 130, and definitely a huge upgrade to its built-in dac

When comparing different vinyl records of my collection to the sound of rme/HD sources, vinyl CLEARLY wins in respects of sense of space, clarity, timbre, … making the sound of the rme feel sadly liveless in comparison

Wondering if the 1000+ € are a „must spend“

Anyone having similar observations?

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

jcello wrote:

Hi everybody,

As most people here I am pretty much impressed with the sound quality of the RME Adi 2 Dac.

As long as I do not compare against my pretty „normal“ analogue source: Thorens TD 160, Ortofon 2M Bronze, Musical fidelity V90 lps

Everything goes into a naim nait xs2 driving a pair of Harbeth P3ESR XD

The Dac is connected to bluesound node 130, and definitely a huge upgrade to its built-in dac

When comparing different vinyl records of my collection to the sound of rme/HD sources, vinyl CLEARLY wins in respects of sense of space, clarity, timbre, … making the sound of the rme feel sadly liveless in comparison

Wondering if the 1000+ € are a „must spend“

Anyone having similar observations?

Probably wrong forum post here, ie, subjective listening opinions, no data or measurements, not taken seriously.

WY

CD Transport>optical>RME ADI-2 DAC FS(AKM)>XLR balanced >GLM software>Genelec Monitors 8340A

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

It is to bad you have the DAC and not the pro or plain ADI2 FS. Then you could record your turntable/preamp out and see if it is caused by digital at all. My guess is that the recording would sound identical and it is the digital masters that sound different.
I have experience pressing vinyl (not much) and a lot of pre processing takes place before the laquer is made, to fit the incredible low dynamic range of vinyl. And yes that could add some real magic.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

Well little dynamic range and therefore mastering tweaks might be a possible direction… is anybody out there who knows what exactly happens during vinyl mastering at ECM for example?

Somebody who owns a vinyl factory has told me that the cutting of the laquer in the neumann mastering machine PRODUCES a kind of „artificial“ colour, reverb and space which is actually not there on the master tape itself due to cutting head resonance….

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

Well there are some vinyl vst plugins for example from waves, abbey road vinyl, I have no idea if they give the sound you like.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

6 (edited by KaiS 2022-11-01 16:31:42)

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

Vinyl disc does a multitude of alterations to the original sound, even if the disc is cut from the same digital master that is released on CD / Streaming.


Here are just the most basic alterations:

• Intentional frequency response changes while cutting the disc, to compensate for average treble loss during manufacturing and needle tracking.
The compensation is increased to the inner grooves, because they are harder to track.
If you now use a pickup with above average tracking, like your Ortofon fine-line diamond, you get this as treble boost.

• Left/Right crosstalk, ca. -30 dB.

• Various kinds of nonlinear distortions of high amount in the multi % range, caused from the tracking process.
Harmonic distortions, intermodulation distortions, frequency intermodulations etc.

• The needle resonance, boosting the treble somewhere around 16-20 kHz.
Caused from the elasticity of the vinyl and the needle mass.

• Bass resonance boosting the lowest audible and the sub frequencies.
Caused from the tonearm mass and the pickup compliance.

• Groove noises of all kinds, creating an “ambience” feel.
The opposite of “black background”.

• Treble boost from the electrical resonance created between the MM-pickup’s coil inductance and the cable+amplifier input capacitances.
- Your Ortofon 2M Bronze pickup is spec’ed with an inductance of 630 mH
- The Musical Fidelity V90 lps is said to have a capacitance of 128 pF
- The Thorens TD160 is spec’ed with 120 pF cable capacitance.
https://thorens.com/images/downloads/pl … 0hd_en.pdf
This calculates to a resonant frequency of 12.5 kHz.
https://de.universaldenker.org/formeln/1303



Not all of the above can be simulated by ADI-2, but, to approach vinyl sound:
• Set the Treble boost of ADI-2’s B/T control until the treble balance sounds similar.
Even a bit of bass adjustment might be appropriate.
• Select a DA-filter that suits your taste, “SD Sharp” and “Slow” are candidates with a “natural” impulse response.
The filters have an audible effect only at sample rates of 44.1 and 48 kHz.
• Use a small amount of “Width” reduction. 0.94 would be 30 dB crosstalk, about what is to expect with vinyl.
Alternatively or additionally you can try the first step of the “Crossfeed” parameter.

For all valid comparisons digital <-> vinyl it’s essential to use exactly the same listening level, else the louder source always wins.

Don’t expect to get digital completely similar to vinyl, it’s just too different.
The hints should help you to make your ADI-2 more enjoyable.

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

If you want vinyl sound just wait until you hear the new SimulLathe plugin by Tokyo Dawn Labs. I've been beta testing it the last few weeks and it's nuts. Should be out soonish. As well as previewing what the vinyl cut is likely to sound like, you can actually fly through the grooves graphically Star Wars style. smile

https://musicwall.app/hermetech

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

Can these plugins be used with software like foobar, kmplayer and such or do they only work with pro-audio software?

9 (edited by ramses 2022-11-01 18:12:40)

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

You will need to look what's supported when the product is being released and then check your audio player whether and which type of plugins are supported. This is also OS- (and DAW-) dependent, as you can read from the article.

https://routenote.com/blog/common-plugin-formats/

The matrix gives an overview: https://routenote.com/blog/wp-content/u … Blog-1.jpg

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

Hi

plug-ins by SimulLathe plugin by Tokyo Dawn Labs are for example VST. so they run on JRiver and many other software.
I use regularly VST plug-ins in JRiver.

Peter

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

Thanks @ramses and @pschelbert!

12

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

KaiS wrote:

Groove noises of all kinds, creating an “ambience” feel. The opposite of “black background”.

The artifical ambience addition of the wide, stereo groove noise (I am not talking rumble or clicks) is an amazing effect that I rediscovered by listening through my LP collection with the ADI-2/4 Pro. It tricks the brain into hearing ambience that isn't there. Of course only at lower levels of music, otherwise it's not audible.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

Can a needle drop capture the vinyl magic? Or, does a it sound the same as the vinyl setup used for the needle drop?
I'd be curious to try this out but don't want to buy a vinyl setup.

14 (edited by KaiS 2022-11-04 17:08:05)

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

entertainme wrote:

Can a needle drop capture the vinyl magic? Or, does a it sound the same as the vinyl setup used for the needle drop?

“Needle drop” - you mean a digital copy from a vinyl set I suppose?

In my experience, yes, all what makes vinyl sound special is reproduced from the digital file too.

The only constraint: with sample rate of 44.1 kHz I miss a tiny bit of “openness”.
With 48 kHz that’s already OK, the little bit higher sample rate makes a difference.

So maybe it’s advisable to use 96 kHz 24 bit as recording format, to be on the safe side.

entertainme wrote:

I'd be curious to try this out but don't want to buy a vinyl setup.

A good sounding vinyl set cost a bit and needs good tone arm / pickup combination and perfect alignment to do it’s best.

I’m not talking audiophile exotic prices, but at least four-figures if bought new.
Don’t buy used needles, most (but not all) needles play 500 h max. before worn out.


So maybe a friend of yours has a vinyl set you could use.

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

Thanks!

I tried some vinyl rips and the sound compared to digital is interesting, pleasant in a way but lacking in some areas.
It's good to know I can listen to peoples vinyl rigs that way.

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

I've also experimented with recording vinyl (via ADI-2-Pro FS) for a while now in quad DSD. The resolution of the high-end is still a bit lacking compared to the analogue signal, not sure why. Otherwise the recordings sound excellent. Will probably try a linear power supply next.

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

I happily listen vinyl with the RME ADI2PRO and JRiver (File > Open Live mode). If needed I apply the Acon declicker (great tool)

All of this is absolutely transparent (I compared it blindly using the preamp mode)
I compared A/D 24@96k and 24@192 w/o difference (checked blindly so I stay with 96k)

So far so good

DAW: W10 mini PC (i5)
Server: JRiver 30+Dirac+Acon Declick
DAC: RME ADI2 PRO Speakers ATC SCM50ASL

18 (edited by BoooM 2022-11-11 17:12:14)

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

stanzanim wrote:

All of this is absolutely transparent (I compared it blindly using the preamp mode)
I compared A/D 24@96k and 24@192 w/o difference (checked blindly so I stay with 96k)

So far so good

But the preamp mode is already set to the bitrate/resolution you are recording in (and is already digital) ?!
I compared it to the analogue by playing the recording and the vinyl in parallel and flipping the input switch of my preamp.

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

Analogue sources converted to digital never sound exactly the same to me (I have a Crookwood console that allows me to switch inputs from anywhere in the mastering chain, level matched etc.) so IMO it's silly to expect them to. Just accept it, find a converter you love the sound of and be done. smile

https://musicwall.app/hermetech

20 (edited by KaiS 2022-11-11 18:45:26)

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

BoooM wrote:

I've also experimented with recording vinyl (via ADI-2-Pro FS) for a while now in quad DSD. The resolution of the high-end is still a bit lacking compared to the analogue signal, not sure why. Otherwise the recordings sound excellent. Will probably try a linear power supply next.

When comparing it‘s maybe slightly different loudness, or playback not perfectly in sync - the lagging source often sounds not as good, subjectively.
Or it’s the acoustic feedback from the speakers to the vinyl disc, missing in digital reproduction - an effect that can’t be underestimated.
Even the signal path’s might be different.

Those A/B’s with analog involved are tricky.


Or it’s the DSD format.

This is completely unscientific, subjective, and by no means confirmed by measurements:
I often found DSD sounding a bit softer, like “fake-analog”.
I have a lot of SACDs collecting dust ‘cause I found their sound kind of boring.
96 kHz PCM sounds better to me, completely transparent (= 1:1), crazy I know.

21 (edited by BoooM 2022-11-11 20:27:22)

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

I'm not saying I did a perfect comparison, but the difference in the high-end was quite significant so it doesn't need to be perfect. I adjusted for loudness to be level. That a slightly lagging source wouldn't sound as good is new to me, to me it didn't seem to be an issue, as I could even listen the same spot with both versions.

Also this is not unscientific, I'm a scientist and I'm sharing my observations (yes, I have a degree, I know what science is).

It may really be the DSD format, very well possible. I have then also tried different programs to convert it to PCM which can then sound very nice. I'm not saying it sounds bad, I'm just saying the high-end doesn't sound like the source. In fact, for example the downsampled 24/44.1 PCM sounds better than most CDs. I didn't settle on a PCM rate yet, 24/96 sounds pretty good, but there is a difference to 4xDSD.

And yes, I agree, the DSD smears a bit, it's softer. But the PCM isn't perfect either. Also keep in mind, I'm using 4xDSD, not 1xDSD like SACD. And since there is no clear answer to the case if a linear power supply would help with the high-end, the only solution for me is to find it out by myself (I assume it could, since the DSD rate is so high, it's likely being affected by the high-frequency noise of a switching power supply).

22 (edited by KaiS 2022-11-11 21:28:25)

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

Hope you got me right: the disclaimer meant my own states were unscientific, not your’s.

The main difference DSD vs. PCM on the objective, measurable side is the huge amount of ultrasonic noise content.
Not all electronics can gracefully handle this, power bandwidth and slew rate limiting, IM and TIM distortions etc. come to mind.

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

I see the issue with the ultrasonic noise, which is probably the reason DSD sounds smeared in the high-end because the noise needs to get filtered out.

How does the PCM recording work on the device? It's a sigma delta converter which internally uses DSD (for high rates at least)?

Like said, I got pretty good results converting DSD to PCM, but I guess this step has much freedom for interpretation and optimization?

Also I enjoy listening to 24/96, it's especially its use in mixing which bothers me as I can pretty confidently identify vinyls coming from such a workflow. Pure analogue ones have something special.

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

BoooM wrote:

I'm not saying I did a perfect comparison, but the difference in the high-end was quite significant so it doesn't need to be perfect. I adjusted for loudness to be level. That a slightly lagging source wouldn't sound as good is new to me, to me it didn't seem to be an issue, as I could even listen the same spot with both versions.

Also this is not unscientific, I'm a scientist and I'm sharing my observations (yes, I have a degree, I know what science is).

It may really be the DSD format, very well possible. I have then also tried different programs to convert it to PCM which can then sound very nice. I'm not saying it sounds bad, I'm just saying the high-end doesn't sound like the source. In fact, for example the downsampled 24/44.1 PCM sounds better than most CDs. I didn't settle on a PCM rate yet, 24/96 sounds pretty good, but there is a difference to 4xDSD.

And yes, I agree, the DSD smears a bit, it's softer. But the PCM isn't perfect either. Also keep in mind, I'm using 4xDSD, not 1xDSD like SACD. And since there is no clear answer to the case if a linear power supply would help with the high-end, the only solution for me is to find it out by myself (I assume it could, since the DSD rate is so high, it's likely being affected by the high-frequency noise of a switching power supply).

You should read Benchmark article on SWPS

AUDIO MYTH - "SWITCHING POWER SUPPLIES ARE NOISY"

by John Siau May 03, 2016 7 min read
AHB2 Audio Myths Power Amplifier Power Supply Test & Measurement
Audio Myth - "Switching Power Supplies are Noisy"
THIS MYTH GOES SOMETHING LIKE THIS:

"Switching supplies are noisy."

"Linear power supplies are best for audio."

We disagree!

WY

CD Transport>optical>RME ADI-2 DAC FS(AKM)>XLR balanced >GLM software>Genelec Monitors 8340A

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

BoooM wrote:

I see the issue with the ultrasonic noise, which is probably the reason DSD sounds smeared in the high-end because the noise needs to get filtered out.

How does the PCM recording work on the device? It's a sigma delta converter which internally uses DSD (for high rates at least)?

Like said, I got pretty good results converting DSD to PCM, but I guess this step has much freedom for interpretation and optimization?

Also I enjoy listening to 24/96, it's especially its use in mixing which bothers me as I can pretty confidently identify vinyls coming from such a workflow. Pure analogue ones have something special.

You really should provide data and measurement for such sound quality statements on a technical forum like this . Lot of general comments and subjective opinions written which carry little weight.  If you have personal preferences fine but they do not extend to characterizing equipment and technologies.

WY

CD Transport>optical>RME ADI-2 DAC FS(AKM)>XLR balanced >GLM software>Genelec Monitors 8340A

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

yuhasz01 wrote:
BoooM wrote:

I see the issue with the ultrasonic noise, which is probably the reason DSD sounds smeared in the high-end because the noise needs to get filtered out.

How does the PCM recording work on the device? It's a sigma delta converter which internally uses DSD (for high rates at least)?

Like said, I got pretty good results converting DSD to PCM, but I guess this step has much freedom for interpretation and optimization?

Also I enjoy listening to 24/96, it's especially its use in mixing which bothers me as I can pretty confidently identify vinyls coming from such a workflow. Pure analogue ones have something special.

You really should provide data and measurement for such sound quality statements on a technical forum like this . Lot of general comments and subjective opinions written which carry little weight.  If you have personal preferences fine but they do not extend to characterizing equipment and technologies.

I can see the desire to express all things technical, but the ears are still the most relevant measuring tool which haven't been replaced by technical measurements. I may have a look at your article, I'm starting to think the DSD smear is what I perceive the most when comparing to analogue. On the other hand, I may still have a desire to try it out.

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

jcello wrote:

Hi everybody,

As most people here I am pretty much impressed with the sound quality of the RME Adi 2 Dac.

As long as I do not compare against my pretty „normal“ analogue source: Thorens TD 160, Ortofon 2M Bronze, Musical fidelity V90 lps

Everything goes into a naim nait xs2 driving a pair of Harbeth P3ESR XD

The Dac is connected to bluesound node 130, and definitely a huge upgrade to its built-in dac

When comparing different vinyl records of my collection to the sound of rme/HD sources, vinyl CLEARLY wins in respects of sense of space, clarity, timbre, … making the sound of the rme feel sadly liveless in comparison

Wondering if the 1000+ € are a „must spend“

Anyone having similar observations?

What you are hearing is the difference between mastering of the content you are playing.  The only way you can truly measure if both sources sound the same is to record your vinyl then ABX between the recording and the record.

I needle drop all of my vinyl and I can say that the digital file sounds exactly the same as my vinyl, minus the clicks/pops and surface noise as I remove them because they are annoying.

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

BoooM wrote:

I've also experimented with recording vinyl (via ADI-2-Pro FS) for a while now in quad DSD. The resolution of the high-end is still a bit lacking compared to the analogue signal, not sure why. Otherwise the recordings sound excellent. Will probably try a linear power supply next.


What are you recording on?  I do not have this experience.

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

entertainme wrote:

Can a needle drop capture the vinyl magic? Or, does a it sound the same as the vinyl setup used for the needle drop?
I'd be curious to try this out but don't want to buy a vinyl setup.

Yes, I do it all the time and my needle drops are what I listen to most of the time.  Digital can fully encapsulate any analog source.

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

BoooM wrote:

I may have a look at your article, I'm starting to think the DSD smear is what I perceive the most when comparing to analogue.

Never heard of DSD smear.  DSD has a boat load of ultrasonic noise but that is way outside of the audible range.  You should have about 50KHz of noise free bandwidth with DSD and the playback device should be filtering the noise out before it exits the DAC.  RME does this very well.

31 (edited by KaiS 2022-11-12 08:59:09)

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

yuhasz01 wrote:
BoooM wrote:

I see the issue with the ultrasonic noise, which is probably the reason DSD sounds smeared in the high-end because the noise needs to get filtered out.

How does the PCM recording work on the device? It's a sigma delta converter which internally uses DSD (for high rates at least)?

Like said, I got pretty good results converting DSD to PCM, but I guess this step has much freedom for interpretation and optimization?

Also I enjoy listening to 24/96, it's especially its use in mixing which bothers me as I can pretty confidently identify vinyls coming from such a workflow. Pure analogue ones have something special.

You really should provide data and measurement for such sound quality statements on a technical forum like this . Lot of general comments and subjective opinions written which carry little weight.  If you have personal preferences fine but they do not extend to characterizing equipment and technologies.

As audio engineer having gone through all types and combinations of analog and digital recordings during my career, I can confidently say:

Analog tape- and digital recordings are totally different things sonically.


Not only is analog tape ALWAYS driven into saturation during recording, this process is repeated while mixing from multitrack to stereo, adding up to two-figure percentage of distortions.

There’s no need to underlay this by extra measurements, this is indeed common knowledge for decades of recording practice.


Producing music on analog tape is different in every aspect, compared to recording in a DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) today.

So even if you leave out the sound of analog tape and the audio engineer’s way to work around and with it‘s limitations – at least equally important is: the way working with artists is different, everything has to be played in realtime, at least once.
No way to edit out any little mistakes or non-precise performances with computer tricks etc. etc.


The artists simply perform different, this alone changes the sound much more than some technical aspects do.

No wonder analog recordings sound different.

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

BoooM wrote:

I can see the desire to express all things technical, but the ears are still the most relevant measuring tool which haven't been replaced by technical measurements.

As long as you know which source you are listening to and no strict controls are in place there‘s no way you are only using your ears. That‘s why there are double blind tests, to make sure you use only your ears and not your eyes, brain etc. with all kinds of cognitive biases.

33 (edited by BoooM 2022-11-12 11:58:32)

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

artburda wrote:
BoooM wrote:

I can see the desire to express all things technical, but the ears are still the most relevant measuring tool which haven't been replaced by technical measurements.

As long as you know which source you are listening to and no strict controls are in place there‘s no way you are only using your ears. That‘s why there are double blind tests, to make sure you use only your ears and not your eyes, brain etc. with all kinds of cognitive biases.

I'm a very objective person. I said the difference was significant, no reason to go into psychology.
I have done double blind tests myself with different PCM rates and it was easy to hear the difference. I just didn't bother with setting up a double blind test for comparing to analogue cause I don't have the hardware to do so.

On the other hand, the brain is part of hearing too, you are absolutely right, and I'm fully aware of it while coming to my conclusions. It was 4xDSD vs. analogue in this case.

What a lot of the science guys are missing, that science is telling you that we don't know how our hearing works, we only got clues. It is a very complex system which also involves the brain in context of the cochlear amplifier.
Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXJvQGDyESc

34 (edited by ramses 2022-11-12 11:54:16)

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

BoooM wrote:
artburda wrote:
BoooM wrote:

I can see the desire to express all things technical, but the ears are still the most relevant measuring tool which haven't been replaced by technical measurements.

As long as you know which source you are listening to and no strict controls are in place there‘s no way you are only using your ears. That‘s why there are double blind tests, to make sure you use only your ears and not your eyes, brain etc. with all kinds of cognitive biases.

I'm a very objective person. I said the difference was significant, no reason to go into psychology.
I have done double blind tests myself with different PCM rates and it was easy to hear the difference. I just didn't bother with setting up a double blind test for comparing to analogue cause I don't have the hardware to do so.

Hi BoooM, how are you?
Maybe you got it wrong, with psychology he doesn't mean you in person, he means psychoacoustic effects.

We do not know each other in person and if I remember right you didn't detail your methodology, how you perform tests.
Whether you tried your best to exclude any psychoacoustic effect.

It's not only to perform blind or double-blind tests. To put two examples that come to my mind:
The question is also whether you listened at the same volume settings.
Another question is how you performed A/B test, how much time was between A and B.

Real testing is not easy and as you can read here, there is a preference for reliable statements.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

ramses wrote:
BoooM wrote:
artburda wrote:

As long as you know which source you are listening to and no strict controls are in place there‘s no way you are only using your ears. That‘s why there are double blind tests, to make sure you use only your ears and not your eyes, brain etc. with all kinds of cognitive biases.

I'm a very objective person. I said the difference was significant, no reason to go into psychology.
I have done double blind tests myself with different PCM rates and it was easy to hear the difference. I just didn't bother with setting up a double blind test for comparing to analogue cause I don't have the hardware to do so.

Hi BoooM, how are you?
Maybe you got it wrong, with psychology he doesn't mean you in person, he means psychoacoustic effects.

We do not know each other in person and if I remember right you didn't detail your methodology, how you perform tests.
Whether you tried your best to exclude any psychoacoustic effect.

It's not only to perform blind or double-blind tests. To put two examples that come to my mind:
The question is also whether you listened at the same volume settings.
Another question is how you performed A/B test, how much time was between A and B.

Real testing is not easy and as you can read here, there is a preference for reliable statements.

I know this, I just updated my post referring psychophysics. Like I said, I don't claim my test was perfect (I did care for matching loudness though as I experienced this to have a huge effect), but the main difference was that there was more space in the analogue signal, which I would interpret as the 4xDSD had smeared the transients.

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

KaiS wrote:

As audio engineer having gone through all types and combinations of analog and digital recordings during my career, I can confidently say:

Analog tape- and digital recordings are totally different things sonically.


Not only is analog tape ALWAYS driven into saturation during recording, this process is repeated while mixing from multitrack to stereo, adding up to two-figure percentage of distortions.

There’s no need to underlay this by extra measurements, this is indeed common knowledge for decades of recording practice.


Producing music on analog tape is different in every aspect, compared to recording in a DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) today.

So even if you leave out the sound of analog tape and the audio engineer’s way to work around and with it‘s limitations – at least equally important is: the way working with artists is different, everything has to be played in realtime, at least once.
No way to edit out any little mistakes or non-precise performances with computer tricks etc. etc.


The artists simply perform different, this alone changes the sound much more than some technical aspects do.

No wonder analog recordings sound different.

I'm not that experienced with tape, but you only list its shortcomings. I think tape can better follow the signal in the time-domain than digital can. This may not be true for the future, but this is my impression for current generation digital.

That being said, when putting on a vinyl of an analogue recording, there is some magic which I miss in digital. And when I then switch back to digital, I get some freshness which I miss on vinyl, probably because the signal is cleaner and has more dynamic range.

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

MatrixS2000 wrote:
BoooM wrote:

I may have a look at your article, I'm starting to think the DSD smear is what I perceive the most when comparing to analogue.

Never heard of DSD smear.  DSD has a boat load of ultrasonic noise but that is way outside of the audible range.  You should have about 50KHz of noise free bandwidth with DSD and the playback device should be filtering the noise out before it exits the DAC.  RME does this very well.

It's a time domain smear which is related to the time window the bits are being looked at plus the effect of filtering out the ultrasonic noise which is well-known to have an effect at the audible range for 1xDSD and IMO continues to do so for 4xDSD to a slighter degree.

38 (edited by KaiS 2022-11-12 14:12:39)

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

BoooM wrote:
KaiS wrote:

As audio engineer having gone through all types and combinations of analog and digital recordings during my career, I can confidently say:

Analog tape- and digital recordings are totally different things sonically.


Not only is analog tape ALWAYS driven into saturation during recording, this process is repeated while mixing from multitrack to stereo, adding up to two-figure percentage of distortions.

There’s no need to underlay this by extra measurements, this is indeed common knowledge for decades of recording practice.


Producing music on analog tape is different in every aspect, compared to recording in a DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) today.

So even if you leave out the sound of analog tape and the audio engineer’s way to work around and with it‘s limitations – at least equally important is: the way working with artists is different, everything has to be played in realtime, at least once.
No way to edit out any little mistakes or non-precise performances with computer tricks etc. etc.


The artists simply perform different, this alone changes the sound much more than some technical aspects do.

No wonder analog recordings sound different.

I'm not that experienced with tape, but you only list its shortcomings. I think tape can better follow the signal in the time-domain than digital can. This may not be true for the future, but this is my impression for current generation digital.

That being said, when putting on a vinyl of an analogue recording, there is some magic which I miss in digital. And when I then switch back to digital, I get some freshness which I miss on vinyl, probably because the signal is cleaner and has more dynamic range.

Misunderstanding.
The mentioned facts about analog tape recordings are not negatives, just special characteristics analog tape have.

As audio engineer you work with it, use them to your favor.


The following is about professional open real wide track tape recording, NOT cassette recorder‘s.

Typically 1/4” tape for stereo, 2” tape for 16 or 24 paralleled tracks, running at 15 or 30 ips (inch per second) speed.
Dynamic range ca. 70 dBA, referenced to 3% harmonic distortions.

3% it is absolutely tolerable, because tape saturates very soft and the generated distortions are almost entirely K3, which is the second octave harmonic, musically.


This means driving single instruments hotter, even into saturation way above that 3% THD mark, enriches their sound, not destroys it.

Peaks of percussion instruments are not absorbed, but transformed into overtones letting them sound more attacky.
Single note instruments and vocals get a dynamical brightening up in their harmonics range.


That’s what is done if you look at the typical way of producing music since (analog) multi track recording was invented:
You start with recording all the instruments and vocals on separated tracks, typically 24 tracks spread on a 2 inch tape.
Nasty intermodulation distortions (distortions from overdriving A MIX of multiple frequencies) are largely avoid, because the instruments still are all separated.


In the second step, mixing those tracks to stereo tape, audio engineers usually are more careful with the levels and even have better control of them, than in a live recording.
Still analog tape is quite useful to softly cut excessive peaks, if they are short enough this stays unnoticed.


When I transfer analog tapes to digital these days, I’m always astonished how loud the masters come out without any extra measures.


With today’s digital recordings you have to do a lot of the above on purpose using special DSP processing.
The advantage, if you need a clean path you can just leave those away.

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

BoooM wrote:
MatrixS2000 wrote:
BoooM wrote:

I may have a look at your article, I'm starting to think the DSD smear is what I perceive the most when comparing to analogue.

Never heard of DSD smear.  DSD has a boat load of ultrasonic noise but that is way outside of the audible range.  You should have about 50KHz of noise free bandwidth with DSD and the playback device should be filtering the noise out before it exits the DAC.  RME does this very well.

It's a time domain smear which is related to the time window the bits are being looked at plus the effect of filtering out the ultrasonic noise which is well-known to have an effect at the audible range for 1xDSD and IMO continues to do so for 4xDSD to a slighter degree.

Well this doesn't make much sense since many vinyl masters are from DSD recordings, so you would expect it the same "smear" in vinyl.  Time window = jitter, this has been solved and should not be an issue.  What filter are you using?

40 (edited by KaiS 2022-11-12 14:18:21)

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

MatrixS2000 wrote:
BoooM wrote:
MatrixS2000 wrote:

Never heard of DSD smear.  DSD has a boat load of ultrasonic noise but that is way outside of the audible range.  You should have about 50KHz of noise free bandwidth with DSD and the playback device should be filtering the noise out before it exits the DAC.  RME does this very well.

It's a time domain smear which is related to the time window the bits are being looked at plus the effect of filtering out the ultrasonic noise which is well-known to have an effect at the audible range for 1xDSD and IMO continues to do so for 4xDSD to a slighter degree.

Well this doesn't make much sense since many vinyl masters are from DSD recordings, so you would expect it the same "smear" in vinyl.  Time window = jitter, this has been solved and should not be an issue.  What filter are you using?

I’m no more involved in so many vinyl productions (just lately I had two in a row smile ), but I’ve yet to see a single professional recording done on DSD.

DSD in it’s native form is un-editable, useless for production.
PCM is the norm for recording and mixing.

DSD is an end-user release format.

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

MatrixS2000 wrote:

Well this doesn't make much sense since many vinyl masters are from DSD recordings, so you would expect it the same "smear" in vinyl.  Time window = jitter, this has been solved and should not be an issue.  What filter are you using?

That is largely wrong. Current vinyl releases are mostly PCM which I pretty much avoid cause I have been disappointed by them to a large degree (10% or so were great). There may be a few DSD releases on vinyl, I expect Sony to do them, but often you don't have any information. So for new music, I mostly go with CDs and I try to get good second hand vintage vinyls which don't crack etc.

Jitter is completely unrelated to what I was talking about. I use the 150 kHz filter.

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

KaiS wrote:

I’m no more involved in so many vinyl productions (just lately I had two in a row smile ), but I’ve yet to see a single professional recording done on DSD.

DSD in it’s native form is un-editable, useless for production.
PCM is the norm for recording and mixing.

DSD is an end-user release format.

Lookup the Mofi scandal, they make flat 4xDSD transfers of the master tape in order to produce many so called one-steps. So DSD is very good if the source is analogue. It's not used for mixing, that's correct, not counting a few exceptions.

43 (edited by KaiS 2022-11-13 15:44:04)

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

BoooM wrote:

...I try to get good second hand vintage vinyls which don't crack etc.

That’s what I’d say too.
Even if the digital sound would be the same, new releases very often are  “remastered” versions, mostly not for the better.

Same applies for streaming too, it’s why I start listening to CDs more and more again.

BoooM wrote:

[Lookup the Mofi scandal, they make flat 4xDSD transfers of the master tape in order to produce many so called one-steps. So DSD is very good if the source is analogue. It's not used for mixing, that's correct, not counting a few exceptions.

Reading this article:
https://www.audioholics.com/audio-techn … ty-scandal
makes me want to obtain some of these meticulously made DSD file / SACD copies of the original master tapes smile

44 (edited by MatrixS2000 2022-11-13 12:48:06)

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

BoooM wrote:

That is largely wrong. Current vinyl releases are mostly PCM which I pretty much avoid cause I have been disappointed by them to a large degree (10% or so were great). There may be a few DSD releases on vinyl, I expect Sony to do them, but often you don't have any information. So for new music, I mostly go with CDs and I try to get good second hand vintage vinyls which don't crack etc.

Jitter is completely unrelated to what I was talking about. I use the 150 kHz filter.

I said many not mostly - and I agree most are PCM.  Still not convinced "DSD smear" is a real thing a quick google search came up empty.

Here is a fairly large catalogue to start...

https://www.nativedsd.com/catalogue/

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

BoooM wrote:

So DSD is very good if the source is analogue.

This does not square with your earlier comment about comparing DSD to analogue.

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

KaiS wrote:

DSD is an end-user release format.

Regardless of whether DSD is an end-user release format or not, it would not support "DSD smear" as being a thing.

47 (edited by BoooM 2022-11-13 15:44:00)

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

MatrixS2000 wrote:
BoooM wrote:

So DSD is very good if the source is analogue.

This does not square with your earlier comment about comparing DSD to analogue.

DSD is very good, analogue is better. Also keep in mind that Mofi releases mostly soft music which doesn't get degraded by the time smearing, so for them DSD is surely the best digital format.

Where I heard the smearing for example was on heavily distorted electric guitars. PCM and analogue was sharper.

Also I just got reminded how well phase information is on an analogue (vinyl) record. The 3D effect is insane. This is also where DSD is better than PCM. That makes me question if recording in DSD and later converting to PCM can result in better phase information than recording in PCM right away? I mean that in regards to the anti-aliasing filter, which could be done forward and backwards to preserve the phase, not sure which program can do this though?

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

I'm not sure how the music's genre could impact the technology since all genres and instruments fall into the spectrum easily captured by DSD. But I leave you to your beliefs.

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

I am not into this dsd discussion, because of complete lack of experience with it. But it not as much about genres but, but the material/music,  transient rich material, vs sparse etc. As a producer/mixer it is much easier to get a impressive soundstage with simple sparse arrangements. It is easier to get a glued wall of sound with dense arrangements.
Classical recordings are the same and also produced/mixed, even if only with mic choice and placement and even more important room/hall choice.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

Re: ADI 2 vs Analog

Do you compared blindly?  this is a must otherwise the comparison will be affected by cognitive bias, i.e. if you tend to think analogue is better you will like it whatever your hear
OTOH all the modern vinyl pressings are derived from digitally remastered source, so ...

DAW: W10 mini PC (i5)
Server: JRiver 30+Dirac+Acon Declick
DAC: RME ADI2 PRO Speakers ATC SCM50ASL