1 (edited by zha2zha 2022-11-26 00:52:02)

Topic: Does anyone run ADI-2 FS as DAC only and use an external head amp?

Does anyone run ADI-2 FS as DAC only and use an external head amp? If so which one do you use and why? Balanced? Any significant benefit with a balanced external amp over RME amp section? Can a $300-500 amp even compete? How about a $2000 amp?

Lots of confusing and contradicting info online. I will greatly appreciate any information and any personal experience anyone can share. Thanks.

Re: Does anyone run ADI-2 FS as DAC only and use an external head amp?

I use an ampsandsound tube headphone amp on occasions when I want that tube sound. Otherwise most of the time I use the ADI-2 FS headphone amp.

3 (edited by ramses 2022-11-26 12:42:54)

Re: Does anyone run ADI-2 FS as DAC only and use an external head amp?

zha2zha wrote:

Does anyone run ADI-2 FS as DAC only and use an external head amp? If so, which one do you use and why? Balanced? Any significant benefit with a balanced external amp over RME amp section? Can a $300-500 amp even compete? How about a $2000 amp?

Lots of confusing and contradicting info online. I will greatly appreciate any information and any personal experience anyone can share. Thanks.

Do you really mean the ADI-2 FS or the ADI-2 DAC FS? It has often happened that people mistyped or did not even know that they are different products.

A description of your setup and the signal flow from the source to the headphones would be helpful in answering your questions.

Ideally, you would transport a digitized audio signal in the digital domain (lossless) for as long as possible and avoid additional / unnecessary A/D and D/A conversions.

Here's a little more information upfront that could be interesting to you

I'm curious about your setup. But maybe one question in advance: why don't you consider buying an ADI-2 DAC or Pro FS, or possibly even the new ADI 2/4 Pro SE? After all, the sound quality here is top-notch and there is no other device on the market that has all these useful additional features moreover.

Regarding sound: RME products are known for having a transparent sound, not a "house sound". The goal is not to alter the audio signal to flatter the ears or simply to more closely match the listening habits of a certain group of buyers.

The devices play in the top league in terms of sound, see this studio comparison test. The original wave files you can download there in the video description (as YouTube alters sound):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doHG32aXBDY&t=1s
Here, the ADI-2 Pro FS is compared in terms of A/D conversion with much more expensive studio devices that are specialized in A/D conversion (but without the RME device's flexibility and features, which are unique in the market).

An overview about the different models (not yet ADI-2/4 Pro SE) you can get from my blog article which highlights some product features and links to additional information on YouTube:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ent … ses-en-de/

If you want additional, more detailed information about these products, read the manuals. Don't worry, you do not need to read the whole manual, already the first pages give a good overview about the device's capabilities:
https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2dacr_d.pdf
https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2dacr_e.pdf
https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2profsr_d.pdf
https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi2profsr_e.pdf
https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi24pro_d.pdf
https://www.rme-audio.de/downloads/adi24pro_e.pdf

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

4 (edited by ramses 2022-11-26 13:32:15)

Re: Does anyone run ADI-2 FS as DAC only and use an external head amp?

On the subject of balanced cabling / balanced operation of headphones, how I assess the matter.

Balanced cabling…

… is absolutely necessary in the studio world or on stages, where you have to deal with higher cable lengths. If you google, up to 100 m seem to be possible. That's significantly more compared to a typical HiFi setup.

The signals are operated at a higher level simply because of the cable lengths. Balanced cabling between devices is a three-wire connection: useful signal in different polarity (+/-) and earth. A differential circuit can eliminate any induced interference by comparing the useful signal in different polarity. Plug shapes: 6.35 mm stereo jack (TRS) or XLR.

For some time now, this form of cabling has been found not only in studio devices or in event technology, but also in consumer devices (hi-fi components). Usually only in the more expensive models as a special quality feature to eliminate possible interference with analogue signal transmission as good as possible, and of course also as a sales argument.

Personally, I also like the XLR plugs very much, they are simply more robust and typically snap into place.

The higher signal level results in a higher listening volume. If you don't pay attention to set volume to the same listening level in A/B comparisons, psychoacoustic effects can give the wrong impression that symmetrical wiring sounds better.

This is because louder sounds better for our perception of sound (ear as receptor and interpretation by our brain). Hence, the loudness war in the music industry, to pay more attention to loudness as well as quality and dynamics in music productions.

Balanced operation of headphones

There is no such differential circuit in headphones.

Here, in my opinion (correct me if I'm wrong) the symmetrical cabling is mainly used to minimize crosstalk between the channels.

Moreover, ADI-2 DAC/Pro (and ADI-2/4 Pro SE) are designed in such a way that in symmetrical operation the signal is completely parallel inside the device, each channel has its amplifier stage. This is then consistently continued with symmetrical cabling / operation of headphones.

But it also has requirements on headphone side that each cable is plugged directly to every driver (L and R) separately.

It has to be said that some headphones (e.g., Audeze LCD-3) have a parallel cable routing from the TRS connector to the speaker due to their design.

The twisted cable will probably also contribute to the cable's immunity to interference (similar to twisted pair Ethernet in the network area).

Especially with headphones like the LCD-3, which has a parallel cable routing practically from the TRS connector, it is questionable whether one can expect really relevant improvements in terms of sound through completely symmetrical operation.

It is only a few millimeters or centimeters from the output stage to the TRS connector inside and regarding the TRS plug itself directly at the unit. At this point in the device and at this short distance, crosstalk, if it occurs at all, is probably extremely low so that it would only be detectable by measurement, but has no significant or audible influence on the sound.

Even with headphones, you have to make sure that the listening volume is the same when A/B testing, so that louder doesn't sound better. With balanced operation, each channel has its headphone amplifier stage.

The higher output power of Balanced Operation can be seen as a useful side effect when driving headphones with extremely high impedance / low driver efficiency. But there were never any problems with the ADI-2 DAC/Pro because the Extreme Power headphone outputs deliver enough power even in unbalanced operation (especially in Hi-Power mode). See also manual chapter 8.1 "Extreme power headphone outputs".

To sum up

Balanced connection of devices and balanced operation of headphones have their technical use cases, but do not expect from it any significant (some people even claimed night/day differences) or the holy grail of better sound.
I hope my explanations brought some light to it.

If you want to use the best of what's technically possible and to be on the "very" safe side, then that's another story, why not. The RME devices support both balanced operation for line inputs and outputs ("with differential circuitry") and also for operation with headphones (essentially for parallel signal routing).

In my opinion, you can't go wrong with the RME devices in terms of quality and features. Not every vendor has a studio background and no other vendor offers this combination of excellent design and quality, driver stability, features and such a great manual from which you can learn a lot.

But whatever I or others say. I propose that you make your own experience. You got now some technical background to digest. Take the time, listen to the devices yourself with your ears, and finally buy what you like most. You must feel comfortable with your purchase decision and the device.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Does anyone run ADI-2 FS as DAC only and use an external head amp?

I have been using ADI-2 DAC FS and Onkyo A9070 in power amplifier mode for almost 4 years. The result is great. I have also used ADCOM 555 ii, pure power amplifier, even better result. Whether it's $300 or $3000, it depends on how much you like it. You just have to try. Success!

Re: Does anyone run ADI-2 FS as DAC only and use an external head amp?

If you want to try out other sound signatures get some other phones. Another transistor amp chained to ADI-2 DAC would be useless and waste of money. Some forums will tell you to get three versions of chinese amps, but its bullshit. As a previous owner of ADI-2 DAC and now PRO, balanced is only needed if you have phones with certain needs for high power. It doesnt sound better, more balanced or even differnt. Only if your headphones need that kind of output to perform.

If you purchased the ADI-2 DAC you are right there you should be, excellent desicion!

ADI-2 DAC, ADI-2 PRO, DigifaceUSB, UCXII, ARC, HEGEL.h80, KEF.ls50, HD650, ie400pro _,.\''/.,_

Re: Does anyone run ADI-2 FS as DAC only and use an external head amp?

ramses wrote:
zha2zha wrote:

Does anyone run ADI-2 FS as DAC only and use an external head amp? If so, which one do you use and why? Balanced? Any significant benefit with a balanced external amp over RME amp section? Can a $300-500 amp even compete? How about a $2000 amp?

Lots of confusing and contradicting info online. I will greatly appreciate any information and any personal experience anyone can share. Thanks.

Do you really mean the ADI-2 FS or the ADI-2 DAC FS? It has often happened that people mistyped or did not even know that they are different products.

A description of your setup and the signal flow from the source to the headphones would be helpful in answering your questions.

Ideally, you would transport a digitized audio signal in the digital domain (lossless) for as long as possible and avoid additional / unnecessary A/D and D/A conversions.

Here's a little more information upfront that could be interesting to you

I'm curious about your setup. But maybe one question in advance: why don't you consider buying an ADI-2 DAC or Pro FS, or possibly even the new ADI 2/4 Pro SE? After all, the sound quality here is top-notch and there is no other device on the market that has all these useful additional features moreover.

Regarding sound: RME products are known for having a transparent sound, not a "house sound". The goal is not to alter the audio signal to flatter the ears or simply to more closely match the listening habits of a certain group of buyers.

The devices play in the top league in terms of sound, see this studio comparison test. The original wave files you can download there in the video description (as YouTube alters sound):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doHG32aXBDY&t=1s
Here, the ADI-2 Pro FS is compared in terms of A/D conversion with much more expensive studio devices that are specialized in A/D conversion (but without the RME device's flexibility and features, which are unique in the market).

An overview about the different models (not yet ADI-2/4 Pro SE) you can get from my blog article which highlights some product features and links to additional information on YouTube:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ent … ses-en-de/

If you want additional, more detailed information about these products, read the manuals. Don't worry, you do not need to read the whole manual, already the first pages give a good overview about the device's capabilities:
]


I have ADI-2 DAC FS. Going USB from MAC computer. I have various headphones and wondering if an external balanced headphone amplifier will provide any additional benefit.

Re: Does anyone run ADI-2 FS as DAC only and use an external head amp?

Happy_amateur wrote:

If you want to try out other sound signatures get some other phones. Another transistor amp chained to ADI-2 DAC would be useless and waste of money. Some forums will tell you to get three versions of chinese amps, but its bullshit. As a previous owner of ADI-2 DAC and now PRO, balanced is only needed if you have phones with certain needs for high power. It doesnt sound better, more balanced or even differnt. Only if your headphones need that kind of output to perform.

If you purchased the ADI-2 DAC you are right there you should be, excellent desicion!


Love it. Just want to see if there is anything else I can squeeze with an external amp.