1 Topic by Presuming Ed (edited by Presuming Ed 2024-08-26 15:09:23)

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Topic: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

I’ve been using the Adi-2 DAC for a few years and have now got the Pro black edition in the hope that I can feed my record player into the analogue inputs and remove my analogue pre amp from the chain.

I have two main inputs. The analogue, and USB. I have basic mode set to DAC and it is mostly working but…

I can’t change the AD sample rate in DAC mode, and it keeps changing to the whatever was last played on USB. Switching the unit off and on resets the sample rate to 768, but I don’t want to have to do this every time I switch sources.

Am I missing something? Is there another way to set up the unit to get what I want?

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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

What is your setup, Windows or Mac, which recording program do you use and what driver?
You could provide screenshots of ADI-2 Remote display ...

May I ask for what you need 768 kHz, as you mention it? At that speed not all DSP functions are available anymore.

Maybe you should perform a full reset of the unit and start slowly changing parameters ... one by one.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

ramses wrote:

What is your setup, Windows or Mac, which recording program do you use and what driver?

I’m not connected to a computer. I have an opticalrendu as a Roon endpoint that connects to the RME by USB

ramses wrote:

You could provide screenshots of ADI-2 Remote display ...

I haven’t used adi-2 remote app yet

ramses wrote:

May I ask for what you need 768 kHz, as you mention it? At that speed not all DSP functions are available anymore.

That’s just the default I’ve got stuck on. I’ll probably end up with 384 and some minimal dsp, but I’m trying to audition whether the AD then DA process of the RME is good enough to get rid of my preamp so I’m starting at the highest sample rate.

ramses wrote:

Maybe you should perform a full reset of the unit and start slowly changing parameters ... one by one.

I’ll try that. But I think I remember seeing something in the manual about the sample rate being copied from the last digital input rate - I’m not sure if this is a feature or a bug?!

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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

You should get the sample rate via USB.
BTW .. 192 kHz is more than enough.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

Yes, maybe 192 is enough. Maybe 96, or 384, or…

But having it keep resetting to 44.1 whenever I play a cd rip isn’t ideal.

I guess there’s some technical reason? But I can’t understand why I can’t just set the sample rate for the analogue input and have it not change?

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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

Presuming Ed wrote:

Yes, maybe 192 is enough. Maybe 96, or 384, or…

Sounds like you are very unsure about this topic ... well, no problem, make your own experiences.
But try to test with valid test methods to rule out psychoacoustic effects (blind tests, quickly switching between A/B, listening / testing at the same volume.
Otherwise, you are usually only cheating yourself and then there will be someone again who will proclaim through all possible forums what a game changer 384 kHz was for him...

Presuming Ed wrote:

But having it keep resetting to 44.1 whenever I play a cd rip isn’t ideal.
I guess there’s some technical reason?

The ADI-2 Pro gets the sample rate from USB. USB is here the leading clock source.

Presuming Ed wrote:

But I can’t understand why I can’t just set the sample rate for the analogue input and have it not change?

The analog circuit is in the analog domain and has no sample rate!

The A/D conversion takes place with the sample rate that is set in the ADI-2 Pro.
In your setup, is coming from the USB port.
If the sample rate is changing to unusual high or low settings, it could be the case,
that USB is not connected (device turned off) and that perhaps clock source is not ideally set on the ADI-2.
I do not have time to test this for you but try it out yourself ...

Check Options -> Clock -> Clock source, check whether how it works if you set it to "auto" or "internal".
Change to the state overview and then plug / unplug USB.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

7 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-08-27 07:16:08)

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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

Excuse me if I’m missing something, but I haven‘t read the whole discussion.

Still:

• USB dominates the sample rate.
As long as USB is connected, ADI-2 reverts to the last USB sample rate, it has to, to keep USB interfacing enabled.
There‘s no way around that.


• The most convenient way to switch to 192 kHz (recommended optimum, full featured ADI-2 sample rate), just play a file of this rate on your USB host (streamer, PC, phone, pad etc.)
Put the file or a link to it on the desktop or a primary location for easy access.

I stream from iPhone and have it this way, to play vinyl discs through my ADI-2/4 Pro SE‘s analog in.


• DAC Mode is indeed the most recommended for home use, as it is the easiest to work with and is the one that supports IR remote input switching.


• AD-DA Mode defaults to 192 kHz, but I don‘t like this as a solution, as it complicates usage.
You still would need to switch off your USB streaming device.
If you want to try this path, store and use a “Setup” for each configuration and recall them with the IR remote or an ADI-2 button.

Look here on a how to toggle through multiple Setups with one single button:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 94#p193294

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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

Toggling through different setups looks useful.

But your conclusion seems to be correct: the only ways to control the AD sample rate are to unplug the USB cable or to play a file over USB at the sample rate you want.

I think this may be a dealbreaker for me. I don’t want to be unplugging and re plugging cables or searching for and playing files on the streamer just to change sources.

(I also figure out that my streamer is connecting at 768kHz because it’s taking the highest reported rate the DAC is capable of - going round in a circle.)

9 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-08-27 10:50:30)

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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

Instead of unplugging USB, just switch off the streamer.

If you have ADI-2 Pro in “Auto Mode” (manual page 37), it will switch to Preamp Mode (analog in to analog out) automatically if USB is off.

Couldn‘t be easier than that.


BTW: Seems you’re inside the buyer’s return window?!
So, if you‘re out for vinyl, consider ADI-2/4 Pro SE too.

It‘s concept of digital RIAA EQ bypasses the usual bottleneck of filtering with analog electronic elements and their detrimental effects on sound quality.

The result is an ultra transparent vinyl sound.

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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

KaiS wrote:

Instead of unplugging USB, just switch off the streamer.

If you have ADI-2 Pro in “Auto Mode” (manual page 37), it will switch to Preamp Mode (analog in to analog out) automatically if USB is off.

Couldn‘t be easier than that.


BTW: Seems you’re inside the buyer’s return window?!
So, if you‘re out for vinyl, consider ADI-2/4 Pro SE too.

It‘s concept of digital RIAA EQ bypasses the usual bottleneck of filtering with analog electronic elements and their detrimental effects on sound quality.

The result is an ultra transparent vinyl sound.

There’s no on/off switch on my streamer, so it would still mean pulling a cable and then replugging the power cable and waiting a minute or two for start up.

I’m very happy with my phono stage (and my low output MC requires serious gain) so I’m not looking at the RIAA EQ of the 2/4 Pro SE. (and it doesn’t change the sample rate issue)

11 Reply by ketalar (edited by ketalar 2024-08-31 20:09:05)

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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

Hi,
Sorry if it has already been written many times.
From the manual :

Basic Mode – DAC.
DAC simplifies operation and source selection when the ADI-2 Pro is used like a typical HiFi DAC:
 Simple 2 channel stereo operation
 Easiest switching between the sources to be monitored, like USB and SPDIF

And why bother with upsampling ???

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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

ketalar wrote:

Basic Mode – DAC.
DAC simplifies operation and source selection when the ADI-2 Pro is used like a typical HiFi DAC:
 Simple 2 channel stereo operation
 Easiest switching between the sources to be monitored, like USB and SPDIF

And why bother with upsampling ???

This is how I’d like to be able to use it, but with control over the sampling rate for the analogue input. (There is no upsampling, the analogue input in converted to digital, goes through processing and volume control and then converted to analogue)

The problem is that if the USB cable is connected the sample rate varies from 768kHz (the default when first connected) with DSP not possible, or anywhere from 44.1 - 192kHz based on the last track played via USB.

I would understand if the ADI-2 Pro needed to use the same sample rate as the USB if it was outputting to USB, but in the basic hifi case of choosing between inputs and a single analogue output it seems like a strange constraint.

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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

Presuming Ed wrote:

… I would understand if the ADI-2 Pro needed to use the same sample rate as the USB if it was outputting to USB, but in the basic hifi case of choosing between inputs and a single analogue output it seems like a strange constraint.

This is no constraint, but a necessity:

As long as USB is connected, the host HAS access to ADI-2, even if YOU don’t use that at that moment.
Therefore ADI-2 is forced to follow USB’s sample rate to avoid opening a can of worms on the USB host’s side.


The cards are on the table.

IMO playing a 192 kHz file on the streamer is the simplest way to do the SR switching.

Located on top of a favorites list it could be easily accessible.
At least that’s what I do, being faced with a similar situation.

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14 Reply by beat8000 (edited by beat8000 2024-09-04 12:01:09)

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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

To change the Sample Rate for Analog I'm also using the Madiface Gui to overwrite the last received setting from USB

Additionally there will be no USB sound from TV streaming if the Foobar-USB is set to 768 kHz
In that case I can also set the SR e.g. to 48 kHz in the MadiFace Gui

Win10 Pro, ADI-2 Pro, Basis 1, Adam A3X; RL 906; Grace M902B, Glockenklang Bugatti, Strauss SE-NF-3

15 Reply by rcstevensonaz (edited by rcstevensonaz 2024-09-04 12:50:51)

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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

Can you make a change so that your "USB Device" instead connects by S/PDIF? That way, you could use the SRC capability of the ADI-2 Pro so that the variable rate input is converted to the desired rate (e.g. 88.2, 96, 192, or 384) with the ADI-2 being the clock master? And then your AD conversion would likewise be using that same rate.

For example, a USB to S/PDIF converter? Or a TOPPING D10S which could take the USB as input and send it as S/PDIF Optical or Coax?

16 Reply by Presuming Ed (edited by Presuming Ed 2024-09-04 15:31:55)

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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

Thanks for more workaround ideas, but I’m not looking to add more kit to the equation or use a process that the family can’t / won’t follow.

Unless there’s a firmware update to solve this (and it sounds like it might not be possible) I think I’ll go back to my ADI-2 DAC and my passive pre amp. I would have liked the loudness function and a remote control, but it seems like it’s not worth the bother.

17 Reply by rcstevensonaz (edited by rcstevensonaz 2024-09-04 20:43:59)

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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

Presuming Ed wrote:

Thanks for more workaround ideas, but I’m not looking to add more kit to the equation or use a process that the family can’t / won’t follow.

Unless there’s a firmware update to solve this (and it sounds like it might not be possible) I think I’ll go back to my ADI-2 DAC and my passive pre amp. I would have liked the loudness function and a remote control, but it seems like it’s not worth the bother.

Obviously, make the call that you want to make. The following are just my observations in response to your message as someone with similar configuration who has been stymied by the challenge of clocking as well...

I understand not adding more kit as a general principal. But the USB->S/PDIF is just a simple USD $20 dongle that bridges the USB digital signal to an S/PDIF digital signal. And the D10S is a USD $110 option whose main added benefit is that you gain a visual display showing the incoming bit rate / format in case that is of any help. In your context, I'd recommend trying the dongle.

This approach is no different from a family use perspective. They would now select between (Analog | S/PDIF) instead of (Analog | USB); and all of the challenges of locking a sample rate for the ADC stage disappear.

Moving the digital input off of the USB port also opens up the potential future option for using the USB as a multi-channel send/receive should you ever wish to do off-board room correction or other mixing in the future (e.g., using a RPi or other device). And otherwise, it at least frees up the Pro's internal clock so that you can control the sample rate that is used for the analog input and also the digital (i.e., when doing DSP correction).

Reverting back to your existing ADI-2 DAC is by far the cheapest option.

The ADI-2 Pro FS R is an amazing piece of kit; as is the Pro 2/4 SE if you want separate sub outputs. If you were convinced the loudness, the other functionality, and the ADC pre-amp quality was worth it, you would not even be considering reverting back. But conversely, the Pro is a dear price to pay for functionality that you could live without. Or that you could live without for another 2 to 5 years while you wait to see what comes next from RME or other vendors (i.e., new additional feature capabilities, revised firmware, lower price points, etc.) that would be worth the cost of moving beyond your existing ADI-2 DAC + Preamp combo.

For what it is worth... as someone who loves their RME ADI-2 Pro FS R in my context (desk audio at my home office) and would never give it up unless upgrading to something newer and better, my gut instinct is to suggest you revert back to the ADI-2 DAC and Preamp for the time being. And then take another run at this in the future time if anything changes in the vendor space... or if you later decide you can't live without the Pro's loudness and other features. And in the meantime, also keep an eye on other solutions coming along that primarily target home audio in a living room vs. RME's target of professional audio for studio and live performance.

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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

rcstevensonaz wrote:

Obviously, make the call that you want to make. The following are just my observations in response to your message as someone with similar configuration who has been stymied by the challenge of clocking as well...

Thank you for the useful and detailed post.

As an ADI-2 DAC user I had hoped I could get the same benefits for my analogue source without (m)any compromises. Or at least enough benefits to make up for the extra AD / DA conversions and processing. It’s not the perfect solution for me right now, but I’m still trying to work out if it’s a too many compromises.

I’ve also realised that the easiest way to boost the sample rate is to turn the RME off and on again. In my case this defaults back to 768kHz - good quality, but can’t use loudness function. I may be able to set my USB device to 192kHz max which could work.

Overall I’m very impressed with the quality of the AD/DA process. It does lose a certain directness that I had had before, but it in the range of alternative character of sound rather than an obvious downgrade.

I’m going to persevere for a while and see how I settle into it. (The family probably won’t notice if it gets stuck sampling at 44.1kHz…)

19 Reply by MC

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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

You can limit the highest sample rate to 192 kHz by setting the unit into Multichannel mode. Also note that memorizing the last sample rate for the analog input is a feature where we did not find an easy way to implement it. We still have that on our list.

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20 Reply by joachim.herbert (edited by joachim.herbert 2024-09-07 13:25:34)

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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

The optical rendu is a streamer which in turn is some sort of (linux based) computer. It delivers the usb output it is programmed to. Seems you need to select the proper one out of six output modes. Just try them one by one and see (hear) what happens. It is strange that there is none that is just labeled "transparent". But then, this is highend audio.

If this does not work, go ask sonore. I am sure they will be happy to assist in finding a mode that is just transparent to input.

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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

joachim.herbert wrote:

The optical rendu is a streamer which in turn is some sort of (linux based) computer. It delivers the usb output it is programmed to. Seems you need to select the proper one out of six output modes. Just try them one by one and see (hear) what happens. It is strange that there is none that is just labeled "transparent". But then, this is highend audio.

If this does not work, go ask sonore. I am sure they will be happy to assist in finding a mode that is just transparent to input.

Not my problem, but thanks anyway.

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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

Presuming Ed wrote:

Not my problem, but thanks anyway.

You're welcome. My understanding was and still is you are using an optical rendu that feeds the ADI-2 Pro FS via USB. There are several output modes that do whatever to the bitstream. Maybe they alter it in a way observed by you. Only Sonore will know.

From the manual:

  • Mode #1 - SqueezeLite Output - This output works with any Logitech Media Server and compatible controllers. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM, DSD/DoP, and native DSD.

  • Mode #2 - ShairPort Output - This is an AirPlay emulator that utilizes streams sent to it from a compatible source. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM.

  • Mode #3 - MPD/DLNA Output:
    Mode #3a - DLNA Output - This output utilizes streams from UPnP/DLNA servers and controllers. This output can be configured as an OpenHome renderer. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM, DSD/DoP, and native DSD.

  • Mode #3b - MPD Output - This output is intended to work with an SMB mount. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM, DSD/DoP, and native DSD.

  • Mode #3c - Songcast Output - This output accepts streams from your computer running Linn Songcast. The application is in Beta form.

  • Mode #4 - HQ Player NAA Output - This output utilizes streams from Signalyst's HQ Player running on your computer. Digital signal processing is performed by HQ Player and then asynchronously streamed to the Network Audio Adapter (NAA) output. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM, DSD/DoP, and native DSD.

  • Mode #5 - RoonReady Output - This output utilizes streams from Roon. This output supports true gapless playback of PCM, DSD/DoP, and native DSD.

  • Mode #6 - Spotify Connect Output - This output can be controlled by your computer or tablet running the Spotify application. This application is based on librespot which is an open source client library for Spotify. The application is in Beta form.

23 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2024-09-13 11:50:05)

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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

Part of the solution, or a least a very valid workaround, already is on the table:

MC wrote:

You can limit the highest sample rate to 192 kHz by setting the unit into Multichannel mode. ...

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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

joachim.herbert wrote:
Presuming Ed wrote:

Not my problem, but thanks anyway.

You're welcome. My understanding was and still is you are using an optical rendu that feeds the ADI-2 Pro FS via USB. There are several output modes that do whatever to the bitstream. Maybe they alter it in a way observed by you. Only Sonore will know

For the record, I am using the optical ready as a Roon endpoint. I have no problem with my digital source.

My problem is that the sample rate used for the analogue source cannot be set by the user if you have a USB connected.

As mentioned above you can limit the sample rate to 192kHz by using multichannel mode. (This means no restrictions to DSP with the higher sample rates (although I don’t understand why you can use 1 EQ all the way to 768, but can’t have loudness at 384kHz)).

That just leaves the problem of the sample rate dropping to 44.1kHz after playing a CD rip. (The workaround is to play a 192kHz track)

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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

Presuming Ed wrote:

My problem is that the sample rate used for the analogue source cannot be set by the user if you have a USB connected.

According to my comment above this change of the the sample rate is possible with the Madiface GUI
However I don't know if you can install it on your hardware Opticalrendu since you have no computer connected.

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26 Reply by MC

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Re: Trying to use ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in HiFi setup

The sample rate can easily be set in the Settings dialog on both Mac and Win. That is usually more easy than playing a special wave file or use the system means to change the sample rate.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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