The ADI-2 Pro FS R Black Edition and distorted guitars

+1

From pure quality aspects, RME reference converters are doing right, transparent conversion without adding something to the signal. The reference converters are on par with much more expensive devices; see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doHG32aXBDY. Also mastering experts like Rob Katz, who are used to work with the best equipment, like the ADI-2 * reference converters very much. See his comments on the forum.

I have the following suspicion. Either the audio signal is already too sharp at the "source" or you are using monitoring equipment that leads to the unwanted sharpness.

To the latter. Maybe you bought your monitoring equipment at a time when you used other converters that were not working that precisely. At that time it was probably a good match so that the sound didn't become dull.
But possibly now the combination with the ADI-2 reference converter is not ideal according to your personal taste and might need adjustment. Also, do not forget the impact of the room.

To adjust the sound, you have the following possibilities:

a) by using the PEQ

b) by using a different D/A filter. The slow filter is very good for monitoring purposes. It has at single speed a treble rolloff in the audible frequency range. Maybe this treble rolloff removes some of the sharpness that you currently hear in combination with your monitoring equipment.

c) by room correction

I had the good luck that I could test all new headphones in combination with the ADI-2 * reference converters.
My active monitors are "tame" and are a perfect match as well.

At times my HiFi also has a little too much Treble for my taste, the room is untreated which adds to this.
I have special requirements: I do not listen loud.
I am using dynamic loudness, so that the music doesn't thin out too much at lower volumes.
D/A Filter Slow (with treble rolloff, no frequency correction for the treble rolloff).
Dynamic Loudness -> Bass Gain +10
Dynamic Loudness -> Treble Gain +4
Note this is nothing for mastering, this is simply for HiFi listening (music and streamed videos).
By this I get a rounder more pleasent "HiFi Sound".

For my active monitors (Geithain RL906) and headphones (Audeze LCD-3, DCA Aeon 2 CB) I do not need this,
it sounds just right out of the box.

First of all i am not sure if my post is too long or not well worded but i have already acknowledged everything that was
refered so i am a bit confused. As i said, this is not about bashing, so there's no need for defending, as i am not attacking!

@vinark
I had the UA Apollo X6, Apogee Symphony Desktop, Neumann MT48, Lynx Hilo (first version) and they did sound audibly different,
not better, not worse but different. Speakers and Headphones do matter of course but that's not the key factor here.

I am mainly talking about the A/D conversion, again as i said, it is GREAT, extremely precise, detailed, rich,
but for some sources this is not optimal, just like a super low capacitance guitar cable is technically superior but absolutely not
great if you use any overdrive or distortion.

My chain is fairly nice of quality and i have more than 25 years of recording experience,
this does not have to mean anything but i am totally cluesless haha.

@ramses
Yes, the conversion is absolute high end, i did not deny but strongly affirm that in my post,
but is some rare cases it is simply not optimal.
4K is great but do you really want to see every pore of the actresses face?

YES, technically the signal IS already sharp at the source, i'm talking about distorted guitars,
which is basically glorified white noise and it has inherently nice but also quite unpleasent frequency content.
Also just to be clear, i am already beyond settings or microphone position.

It is definitively not just an EQ thing either.

The filters do already help, but it is still way to subtle, and again i am talking
mainly about the way too perfect A/D conversion here.

@Kubrak
Yes, i have exactly stated that in my opening post, of course the conversion dioes not add it simply depicts what is there,
in such an extreme accuracy that it is not pleasent with certain sources and this goes beyond what you can control with,
setings, mic position, mic blending etc.

I am using fairly high end outboard gear, that's why i have chosen the ADI-2 Pro in the first place,
so that i can simply feed my whatever combination of analog gear into the line inputs.

@ramses
all good, just wanted to make sure that i have worded my "issue" correctly!
I also prefer raw guitar amp tone, maybe with a TS in front but more as a filter than adding additional drive.
My chain, Setup is fairly optimised, great amps, cabs, mic selection, room treatment etc.

Generally with distorted guitar the source is always nasty sounding, so having an extreme representatin of that might not ope always desireable. I recently tested a converter from a different era of recording, where converters werer not as clean and accurate and while i do ot like it in general for distorted guitars it just fits. It is definitively not a night and day difference, but still clearly audible. What does not help either is that i do ot like too much processing, i can of course make the recording softer with less high end, even to the point where it sounds quite dark and dull but the harshness or sharpness still persists, so my conclusion is that it is not simply EQ, no matter at which point in the chain.

I have already found a solution that highly improves the overall perception of the sound. I made a simple passive transformer based boy that goes inbetween my mic pre and the ADI-2 Pro's analog ihnput. The transformer rounds of the sharp transients quite a bit without altering the signal completely, also the frequency dependent phase shifting of the transformer helps immensely for that
pleasent analog sound. It even adds some high frequencies but those sound nice and round, it is not as obvious in a mono track but double tracked it adds width and dimension, that typical and sought after 3D tone. To be honest i was quite surprised how well that worked as i did not expect such a huge difference.

I have similar experience with cables, i was using VOVOX for 25 years now and i though they much sound better than those cheap cordial cabes. After some extensive testing i realized that for high gain at least the cordial cable "sounds" much nicer, softer.

The examples sound great for sure, though i must say in my case it's quite more in the extreme metal cathegory, where there is lots of attack, and general density. I do not use too much gain as i prefer "cleaner" distortion but generally, it seems like for this exact purpose a less accurate conversion might be better. Who knows, maybe it can be done somehow.

Here's a quick snippet i just recorded, fully unprocessed.
I hear a constant resonant blanket of harshness and even
if i apply a super agressive low pass the harshness is still there.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/11ZrNvc … sp=sharing

What is harshness in a thrash metal guitar recording ?
Isn't that the intention to make it as much harsh and distorted and aggressive as possible ?
Your guitar has a tone knob, for a test I would try to use this.

Normally everybody avoids to touch this knob and its always full open.
Take it down (halfway) to change the sound, there is a chance you will be surprised how good it comes out.

Did you try the various AD-Filter options ADI-2 Pro offers?
The AD-filters are what did change the sound the most during the decades of AD-converter development.
I suggest Slow or SD-Slow.
(Makes a diffences at sample rates of 44.1 and 48 kHz only).

Furthermore, regarding your sample:

Try standing in front of your speaker cab during recording, and really have it turned up loud, almost to the edge of feedback.
This creates resonance that ads a great bunch of liveliness to the sound I do miss in your recording.

To protect you ears, for monitoring you can use in-ears with additional ear-protections on top, like the very effective 3M X4A:

https://www.amazon.de/3M-Peltor-Kapselg … e&th=1

No, it does not work like that. See chapter 12.1.1 of the manual.

We did that all the time, with very satisfactory results.
Full (2x 4x12”) Marshall stack, all controls to full, “Master” set back a bit to control feedback.
Player in front of amp.
Only this way you get the 120 Hz rumble and 2.5 kHz bite.

We tried the same at lower volume, even recording with the player standing in the control room, but it’s always been obvious to all, “that” sound was gone.

Of course as a player you need to learn to control this sound, specially if you overdub / stack 3-5 tracks.

One thing worked out with acceptable loss of sound:
Tom Scholz Powersoak.
The “resonance” doesn’t completely origin from the loudness, but from the overall gain.
You need enough gain to drive the guitar just below feedback (with open strings), so you need to control sustain with the side of hand.

Regarding your “treble fog” that overlays the sound:
Did you consider this coming from the microphone being already overdriven?
Few condensor mics can take the level of a guitar cab.

Your description of the treble comming up in the sound‘s sustain phase strongly points to this.
An overdriven condensor mic sounds dull and harsh at the same time, regaining the treble when the level gets lower.

I always had best results with Shure SM-57, one pointing at the speaker’s center, a 2nd located adjacent to it, angled about 100° to the side, carefully aligned for equal distance, mixed to mono.
Alternatively some old AKG vocal mics (AKG D-2000), the ones 70’s DJs loved for their punchy sound.

I speak about the sound of guitar in L channel. There are strong "percusive sounds"/ attacs. Also signal in R channel seems to be rather eratic. There are sudden jumps.

Maybe, it should be like that, but for my ears it is listenable for no more than a minute or so and they get tired...

I do not have ADI-2 Pro, I have listened it on Babyface Pro Fs.

@Kubrak
probably the palm mutes which is essential for those kind of styles

@KaiS
Yes that's why i use gain sparsely, i am definitively in the volume area where the speakers work out nicely
but definitively not where they start to distort as this is not a sound that i would want.

I've heard great recording that were made with jsut one 57 so it's not an impossible task, though i am of course aware of all the different technieques and alsi tried them. As for phase, you do not want things to cancel out entirely but i noticed that having perfect phase aligned mics is not great either. The minimal phase shift can defintively help eliminating or better to say shift the energy in the higher mids and highs to a more pleasent area, actually this is quite similar to what the transformer does.

As for combining i am not sure if a Y cable will do the job, but i might try one, though i can also live with having the tracks
soloed in the DAW, just ned to make sure they always stay locket to each other.

I did of course tried combinations with non dynamic mics like my Brauner Phantom,
but this is not a sound i would want to have on heavy guitars, for softer stuff it works great.

Of course the ADI-2 Pro does not add andything but it shows more than is desirable on critical sources like distorted guitars
or heavy screaming vocals. I did the test with my other old school converter and there is a clear difference, i don't like the other converter for listening, mixing etc but for recording, at least the distorted guitars it is much more pleasent. I did some accurate testing with reamping the same signal through the same chain where basically jsut the converter was changed and it it an audible difference.

Of course i can use the other converter but the setuip is a bit elaborate and needs extra cables etc. so i'd like to find a way to get this "softer" tone out of the RME, ultimately the simplicity of the ADI-2 PRO is the main reason why i have bought it in the first place, and of course because of the driver.

I did indeed also try some cheaper interfaces and their not so accrate conversion
actually suits the heavy stuff a bit better,
though most of there were unusable due to the bad drivers.