TotalMix/UFX Pre’s Phase Feature Request (Page 1 of 2)

Makes no sense to me.
For recording the phase doesn't matter. You can flip the phase in the DAW at every time, after the recording.
The quality of the signal is the same.

For monitoring and PA phase flip feature is useful.

Hardware preamps have this phase inverter button only for tradition, it is from the time before computer.
Today with DAW recording the phase buttons are no longer important. (in Recording)

No, the phase plays a role only in conjunction with other signals and one needs to inverse the phase of one track to avoid cancellation.
The signal itself alone has no benefit when phase is flipped.

No, Recording and Monitoring is two different pairs of shoes.
Phase correction is part of the live mixing (monitoring) or the mixing work after the recording (DAW-work).

If this would be useful, it would be in Totalmix since long time.

The brands you have listed are for me marketing companies, not comparable to the market leader RME (who invented the stuff).

Again, for monitoring these things are useful, for Recording not needed.

And the basic functions are historic, not important in DAW world.

The UFX is a recording interface, you may add an RME Quadmic, it is a pure analog traditional Preamp with all the features you requested. Unfortunately it is out of production but on the used market it should be possible to find.

After all, you also can use Totalmix Loopback feature to bring phase flip into the recording.

I think it's good to keep phase out of the recording path.

For me, it's a tool to cross-check your mic positioning before recording, e.g. when miking an amp with two mics.
This helps when setting up the recording and also in a live session to get a good sound.

I think it's better to do any further corrections later in the DAW, where polarity can be flipped at any time without any loss in quality. Besides that, RME states in the manual that this is technically not possible:

UFX III manual, ch. 36 Audio Routing and Processing: "As in normal TotalMix FX use, the options Stereo Width, MS Proc and Phase L/R are NOT within the recording path, but in the monitor path. This is technically determined and can not be changed."

@ChrisBroomhead, implementing what you suggest would require not only change of TotalMix, but IMHO also change of firmware for all RME devices controlled by TM. Beside the risk, that new firmware would not fit into storage or more RAM would be needed than available, it would also require lots of work, testing, risk of introducing bugs and so on...

And now imagine. Some devices would be updated by users and others not updated. The same setting in TM would then work differently...

Yes, you can use the loopback function but that’s very clunky and it feels like a workaround by RME to get around their design limitation. Again, it should be part of the function of the relevant channel.

I’ll have to check whether you can do it via the UFX onboard control panel. Again, it’s a clunky menu system and if phase reverse for the actual signal is indeed present there, then that just confirms the case that phase flip in the signal path is indeed important and should be included on its channel in TotalMix.

Good. Someone from RME to talk to.

That is all incorrect. Yes, it absolutely matters how an individual file is recorded to the computer. To say there is no compelling reason for the physical file to be recorded with the polarity reversed is no different to saying there’s no compelling reason for the physical file being recorded having the low cut filter enabled to cut out sub frequencies or to use the EQ to cut out some nasty frequencies in a room, etc. The idea of recording is to get as good and phase-coherent sound into the DAW as possible. To say anything else is ignorance of the recording process.

As an example, recording a top and bottom mic on the snare drum I always have to flip the phase of the bottom mic otherwise when you play it back the phase cancellation sounds terrible. The idea that every time you record something in your DAW you should go and phase flip it via a plugin is stupidity. The whole reason why preamps have a phase reverse function is to enable that scenario to be corrected DURING the recording process. Phase issues recording 10 mics on a drumkit have nothing to do with cables not being “wired correctly” (in my case anyhow) but rather with natural acoustic phenomena. As such the hardware should be able to compensate for this, like every other hardware preamp.

And no, I shouldn’t have to swap preamps simply because one of the UFX channels doesn’t have phase reverse.

Correct, if there was a physical polarity switch for the UFX preamp it would also be controllable in TM, but there’s not and it isn’t. Thus back to my original point, it is beyond time to add a reverse polarity function into the UFX channels in TotalMix that affects the recording path, not simply for monitoring. The UFX has four excellent preamps and they should have the full functionality of the other hardware preamps I also own, such as the API 3124V and the Neve 5211. Those two particular models all have polarity switches on them. If it’s good enough for Neve and API, it’s good enough for RME.

I will continue to beat this drum and make my point until someone at RME hears me out.

No worries. That's OK. Always happy to debate anyhow.

I'm just here to plead my case to RME for a function I strongly believe needs to be added to TotalMix (and/or the interface firmware) and which should have been included from the get-go.

No, it really does matter. Yes, Logic does have a gain plugin where you can flip the filter but to reiterate, this is NOT for monitoring purposes, it is for tracking purposes. As such, recording phase correctly is part of recording a multi mic set up correctly. This is standard studio recording practice. You should know that. I’m not interested in monitoring correct phase, I’m interested in recording correct phase.

Seeings as I have to explain an example scenario: Yes, I can insert a phase flip plugin in Logic however it doesn’t affect the audio file - only what’s being monitored. Quite often after recording I simply need to export the drum files and often that’s done without processing - it’s just exporting the recorded files. Thus, if the phase hasn’t been recorded correctly I have to go through the relevant tracks and process them prior to exporting - a preferably avoidable step.

So yes, polarity is in fact comparable to a filter. Recording a complete and satisfactory multi mic sound includes recording the phase correctly.

I’m aware recording a drumkit requires multiple preamps. I’ve been doing it for years. In addition to the UFX I have the Octamic II as well as some API and Neve preamps.

If you believe polarity inversion is unnecessary, why did RME bother to include it and which acts within the signal path on the Octamic II? Why not do away with it across the product line in order to align with this philosophy? I will hazard a guess that in the case of the UFX not including polarity is an oversight. If there’s technical reasons for it not to be possible (which I’m not convinced is actually the case), then that’s a design flaw.

Appreciate the back up!

Absolute rubbish, mate. Getting phase correct for recording is not a waste of time and is standard practice in the studio environment.

Checking for phase issues whilst the drummer plays is no different than setting the correct gain level for each channel and inserting any useful corrective EQ into the path. Prior to that you also need to spend time tuning the drums and ensuring good mic placement. Unless you think that’s all a waste of time as well. As such, phase is a part of that whole process. Yes, you can do it afterwards but it’s more desirable to do it when tracking.

Also, would that the loopback function was that simple, but it’s not.

For heaven’s sake, phase checking is already possible in TotalMix for monitoring. If phase wasn’t important that function wouldn’t be there. As it stands it is there and all I’m asking is for the ability for that to be embedded into the signal path. Simple and as logical as that.

As for contacting the RME team directly, I haven’t really found any easy way to do that other than to talk to local support people here, but they’re not RME employees, they’re just contracted support people.

The point of posting here is to see if there’s any other interest from others in what I’m requesting and also hopefully to get someone from RME directly to respond. Happy to have a conversation with them and press my point with them.

No, phase reversal is not exclusively for tape machines. Without wishing to sound like a douche, I’ve worked in a number of studios here in Nashville, all of which were using a console straight into Pro Tools, and all of which were using the phase functions on the console. No tape machines in sight.

What has your statement “monitoring and recording are two different things” got to do with anything? Why check for phase errors in the monitoring if you can’t subsequently correct them during the recording?

With point about EQ, this is part of my point: you’re saying that you wouldn’t record with EQ as that’s your particular philosophy. OK. I record with EQ. I’m not having a go at you for not recording with EQ. You should have the option to record without it, and I should have the option to record with it. The same should apply for phase. If you, or anyone else for that matter, don’t wish to have the signal phase-flipped, you shouldn’t have to. I wish to have the ability to have the signal phase-flipped, in this case via a simple software switch as part of the UFX mic channel in TotalMix.

That’s it. That’s all I’m asking. I didn’t expect this post to turn into such an argumentative back-and-forth, however I’ve been surprised at what’s come at me for a simple feature request. I was hoping there would perhaps be others who might be interested in seeing this feature added to TotalMix also.

Yes, that was very wise to edit what you initially posted there. Modern recording does indeed happen in more places than just bedrooms.

The point about older consoles and tape machines is irrelevant. New rack preamps still come with phase reversal, including RME’s own Octamic II.

At this point there’s not much point me responding to these responses. I’ll wait for someone else who might have a broader view of things.

Kindly don't make assumptions or put words into my mouth, I never said it's generally unnecessary.

The way the UFX is designed, you are relatively unlikely to face a setup where you will only be using the inbuilt preamps and require the polarity switch - and if, it's there as explained.

You don't need to "swap" anything, you can simply plan ahead when setting up and use preamps with a physical switch for the likely limited number of channels that might require it. Why would you insist on connecting these channels to the UFX when you have several alternatives?
If absolutely required, the Loopback option is a good workaround.

The user forum is for sharing requests, opinions and knowledge. It's not a one-way street for you towards RME where nobody else is allowed to chime in. If you make a request on a public forum, you have to expect that fellow forum members may have different opinions.

If you do not want to discuss this issue with other forum members, then an alternative would be to send an e-mail to RME Support, where it can be discussed directly with RME.

I gave you my point of view on this topic, nothing more and nothing less. The same applies to the other forum members. One fellow forum member suggested Loopback as a possible workaround, and RME Support suggested the same approach.

Maybe it sounded to you as if the community wanted to shut the topic down. But that was not the intention.

If you read the manual passage I quoted, it states quite explicitly:

"As in normal TotalMix FX use, the options Stereo Width, MS Proc and Phase L/R are NOT within the recording path, but in the monitor path. This is technically determined and can not be changed."

RME Support referred to this same passage when stating:

"The technical reasons for this implementation were already quoted above."

This is why the technical limitation was pointed out and Loopback was discussed as an alternative approach. Additionally, I explained how I am handling this for my own use cases.

As always, RME regularly reads the forum posts, and if there is something they can do, they will respond regardless of what the RME user community is saying.

I wish you good luck with your feature request. If RME decides to implement it, I would expect it to be configurable, similar to other TotalMix FX options, so that users can choose whether its in the recording path or not. With the option disabled by default, this would not change anything for users who don't need or don't want it.

I'm not speaking for RME. I'm a customer just like you. I only quoted what the manual says, nothing more.

RME will speak for themselves. I neither said nor implied that this was an "admission" of any design limitation or omission. That's your interpretation, not something I said or intended to imply. Please don't attribute that interpretation to me.

I would simply call it "working as designed and documented".

I said the physical polarity of the individual recorded file does not matter, and I stand by that. Obviously, phase reversal should be applied where needed, like when recording a snare from both sides. But there is no actual technical advantage to applying that at the hardware level. Doing so in the DAW channel is just as good, as issues can only occur when the signal is mixed with others. Any effect or whatever applied within the channel simply does not care about absolute polarity...

Nothing is "shut down", but everyone's as free to disagree with you as you are to state your opinion here. Please accept that.

I won't be repeating the more general points I've made earlier, which you tend to ignore. Feel free to reread my previous comment.

The technical details have also been quoted repeatedly.
In principle, Totalmix is simply not part of the recording signal path. Applications record directly from the physical input. That's always been this way since forever.
And while at some point it was made possible to insert EQ and dynamics into the recorded signal, the quote from the manual clearly states that this does not apply to other functions and can't be changed. If that were an option, it wouldn't be stated otherwise in the manual.

That said, I'm not some "local organisation", and I'm not in the US. I'm the official RME support, and I've been doing that for a little while, but I'm not a hardware or software developer. The US Support is run by the official US distributor, Synthax, also not what I'd refer to as "contracted".

If you would like to have a constructive discussion, please try to be a bit more constructive as well.

Yes, I read the quote from the manual previously. I'd be curious to know what is meant by "This is technically determined and can not be changed". It would seem strange if the UFX is hardwired in such a way as changes to things like polarity cannot be done. That would seem strange, especially considering polarity reversal is already present in the monitoring section. But hey, I'm not an engineer.

So if what I'm requesting can't be done, won't be done, will never be done, OK, fine, say that. But don't say, as has been the insistence of most people here, and those at RME who I have interacted with, that "you shouldn't need to change the phase", "who records with the phase flipped", "you generally always do that in the DAW", and "phase reverse on legacy consoles were only for tape machines", etc.

That's genuinely a funny response! I like it.

As it stands I'm not American but Australian (I just happen to be living and working in the US currently), so the "star in the saloon" reference doesn't really apply. But it is funny.

I didn't blame Synthax at all. They've been good and somewhat supportive of what I'm saying. I spoke to them earlier today in fact.

Not sure that I'm fighting against Germany. I'm fighting against RME a little bit because they can be quite stubborn on some things, this issue being one of them.

I'm digging my heels in here because I know that my point stands. I can guarantee you 100% that any studio person you ask here will say yes, phase correction on the input stage is standard practice and is desirable. No question there. RME should indeed provide for this on their software-controlled preamps.

Like I said, if it's technically impossible to do (which I kinda doubt) then fine, it can't be done, in which case that's a design omission.

If on the other hand the insistence from the company is that you shouldn't need to do this (phase reverse) then I will continue to call them out on that erroneous viewpoint and continue to push the case for rectifying this in TotalMix. If no-one else wants to support me, I'm fine with that.

That’s OK. We don’t need to keep going over it.

The reason why I made the point about the company’s insistence is that when I had this discussion a few years back the response I got from RME was “there should be no need to reverse the polarity when recording”. It was explained to me back then that you shouldn’t need to do this and that’s the idea behind not providing it in TotalMix. That’s what they told me directly. So no misrepresenting going on. If RME want to change their response now to “it’s not technically possible”, then they should do so. In which case, as a user, I’m telling them that that is an oversight.

If it’s technically possible, I’m requesting it to be at least considered in a future TM release. I have a very strong case as to why it should be included (all of what has been said above).

If it’s not technically possible, they should say so and stop telling me that I shouldn’t want to do it.

That’s all.

Yes, I have several of those already.

They work, but boy is it an ugly sight, especially as the inputs for the UFX pre’s are on the front of the unit!

Haha, yes, it's a good pun!

Yeah, sometimes it will fit on the mic side. Unfortunately the one currently that needs to be flipped already has a pad on it and that's already on the mic side.

Connect both to the mic one after the other, it doesn't matter which one first.

No, I can't connect the mic after the other because it doesn't fit in the space. Not sure whether you've used in-line adapters (such as the Whirlwinds) but they're very long. You can't always just connect two together and hang it off a microphone.

I'm already using the Octamic II however the UFX preamp and the UFX converter are better than what's in the Octamic II

No, I haven't answered your question from #25 because the phrasing is convoluted and the question is unclear.

No, the whole discussion is not academic and saying "the rare case you would need to flip phase" makes me think you haven't done a lot of drumkit or multi-mic recording. Phase correction will always be necessary somewhere in such mic setups. As such, it's much better to do it on the way in to the DAW rather than after, or to at least have the ability to do so.

My point is simply this: I am requesting a feature in TotalMix that would make life a little simpler for multi-mic RME users like me, and a feature that would bring the UFX preamp section more in line with other fully-featured hardware preamps, and that is to have a dedicated phase reverse button on each channel that actually affect the signal output, not simply the monitoring. That's all.

If those here think that's a silly or unnecessary request, that's OK; I'm fine with that.

To all those who requested the updated channel colour feature that made their way into TotalMix 2.0, I'm glad your voices were heard. It's not something I would have worried too much about but then I wouldn't have bothered berating everyone who wanted it.

Freedom of speech, y'all!

This is actually a very good point...