51 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2019-04-28 10:56:41)

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Re: How big of a problem is buying a speaker with its own internal DSP?

Just a little comparison between HEDD Type 30 - which is even more expensive €2799 -
and Neumann KH310 (older model) for €1759 which is from price comparable to the HEDD Type 20 €1777

https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipm … r-im-test/ (HEDD Type 30)
https://www.soundandrecording.de/equipm … 0-im-test/ (Neumann KH 310, old model)

When looking at the frequency respone alone, the Neumann delivers one of the best.
The magazine wrote in regards to the Neumann KH310:
"The frequency response is one of the best that has ever been measured in our laboratory."
Spectrogram of the KH 310 with a perfect decay behaviour free of resonances.
Overall rating better compared to the more expensive HEDD product
and much better value / price ratio.

Just a few test results put together in a screenshot, for more I didn't have the mood, it should fit on one page, the details you can read in the german test articles, URLs above.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tcwp6kcsxp8f8pu/Neumann%20KH310%20vs%20HEDD%2030.jpg?dl=1

But thats the technical value of the monitor, you need to like the sound, room presentation, etc.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
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Re: How big of a problem is buying a speaker with its own internal DSP?

An additional idea.
As the Neumann KH310A is in general terms a phantastic monitor of high value for the money.

You could think of using the PEQ of your ADI-2 * to shape the sound to your demands for more HiFi listening,
shall it be required.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

53 Reply by jiw (edited by jiw 2019-04-28 16:14:57)

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Re: How big of a problem is buying a speaker with its own internal DSP?

ramses wrote:

One correction from my side.
I just noticed, that the Neumann KH310 A is the newer model from around September 2018.

What is your source on this?

The A denotes the input configuration on the Neumann monitors (A for analog only and D for additional digital input and delay) and has been used since it was released in 2013.

Also, the Sound&Recording review for the KH310A is available in english from the Neumann product page https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-310-a, download link: https://en-de.neumann.com/product_files/1719/download (if opened in new tab, reload the page).

54 Reply by jiw (edited by jiw 2019-04-28 16:45:03)

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Re: How big of a problem is buying a speaker with its own internal DSP?

To add to what ramses showed of the Sound&Recording review, they also measure residual noise level of the monitors (Störpegel). This is often colloquially called 'hiss'.

The Neumann has a residual noise level of 16.5 dBA at 10 cm, audible only within 67 cm (about 2 feet 2 inches) from the speaker. In contrast, the HEDD has a residual noise level of 28 dBA at 10 cm, only inaudible at more than 251 cm (about 8 feet 3 inches) from the monitor.

Since the Type 20 and Type 30 use the same drivers and amplifiers for the midrange and tweeter, the residual noise level is very likely identical using A-weighting (to better match the frequency dependant hearing sensitivity at low levels).

Depending on the inherent noise of your listening environment and your listening distance, you may hear the residual noise of the speakers if there is no content masking it.

55 Reply by knatterton (edited by knatterton 2019-04-28 19:13:56)

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Re: How big of a problem is buying a speaker with its own internal DSP?

jiw good point, I didn't regard the details yet. Here KH outperforms HEDD also...

HEDD
(Pairwise deviation) Paarabweichungen: 1,6 dB (Maxwert 100 Hz − 10 kHz)
max. Nutzlautstärke: 107,4 dB (3 % THD 100 Hz − 10 kHz)

KH:
Paarabweichungen: 0,45 dB (Maxwert 100 Hz − 10 kHz)
max. Nutzlautstärke: 111,7 dB (3% THD 100 Hz − 10 kHz)


KH has ~4db more headroom and HEDD is pulling out of center, no biggie, ADI has a balance wink

56 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2019-04-28 19:41:50)

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Re: How big of a problem is buying a speaker with its own internal DSP?

jiw wrote:
ramses wrote:

One correction from my side.
I just noticed, that the Neumann KH310 A is the newer model from around September 2018.

What is your source on this?

The A denotes the input configuration on the Neumann monitors (A for analog only and D for additional digital input and delay) and has been used since it was released in 2013.

Also, the Sound&Recording review for the KH310A is available in english from the Neumann product page https://en-de.neumann.com/kh-310-a, download link: https://en-de.neumann.com/product_files/1719/download (if opened in new tab, reload the page).

Hmm .. the "A" confused me, because I didn't find it in the sound & recording review.

And when I looked at price search portals, then there was only the KH310 A and
prices were available / shown since Sept/Oct 2018.

So this looked to me as if the KH310A is a newer model.

Sorry if this is not the case and if I told something wrong.

I removed this wrong information from 2 posting of mine, thanks for pointing this out !

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

57 Reply by jiw (edited by jiw 2019-04-28 19:41:52)

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Re: How big of a problem is buying a speaker with its own internal DSP?

Paarabweichung is better translated as pair deviation (as S&R does), i.e. the maximum deviation of one speaker from the other speaker across the specified frequencies.

The max SPL of the Type 30 at low frequencies (Basstauglichkeit) is 108,3 dB (10 % THD 50 − 100 Hz). As the Type 20 has half the drivers and ports at those frequencies and a smaller enclosure, the max SPL at those frequencies should be at least 6 dB lower.
For comparison, the KH310 comes in at 104 dB (10% THD 50 − 100 Hz).

However, more relevant is the observation that the Neumann's max SPL is within 6dB of the Type 30's between 60 and 250 Hz (both at 3% and 10% THD). Below the HEDD's ports generate more SPL whereas the sealed (and almost half as small) KH310's woofer runs out of excursion.

Also using a signal that approximates typical musical content (EIA-426B), the max SPL of the Neumann at 1 m is 102,4 dBA average SPL with 116 dB peak SPL. The Type 30 manages 104,8 dB average SPL with 116,5 dB peak SPL. Since the low frequency are weighted down quite a bit using A-weighting, the max SPL for musical content should be very similar for the KH310 and Type 20.

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Re: How big of a problem is buying a speaker with its own internal DSP?

Thanks for all these interesting posts!
I'm currently looking for a pair of 3 ways speakers for max. 4000€ and this thread really helps.
They are not for sound editing, but for listening stereo in my living room (music and films). The room is 42 square meters, and I'm 2 meters from the speakers.

I have done a lot of listening in consumer shops and I like a lot B&W 702 S2 (3 ways passive speakers).

But due to this forum, I've started to check active monitors, and now I can't decide between B&Ws and Neumann's KH310 A... 2 different options, and hard to find a shop where I can listen to both...
I'm scared to be bored with the little monitors for home listening... And I think that +60 liters floorstanding speakers are more fun in the bass range?

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Re: How big of a problem is buying a speaker with its own internal DSP?

Could you kindly open a thread of your own ?
We will loose overview if we handle two cases in one thread.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
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Re: How big of a problem is buying a speaker with its own internal DSP?

ramses wrote:

Could you kindly open a thread of your own ?
We will loose overview if we handle two cases in one thread.

Done, in the Miscellaneous section. smile

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61 Reply by Rodney_Ferguson_75 (edited by Rodney_Ferguson_75 2019-04-30 18:10:16)

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Re: How big of a problem is buying a speaker with its own internal DSP?

Once you realise how a room influences sound quality then you will hopefully realise that splitting hairs over high-end speakers is nothing more than an exercise in egotism.

Measure the distance between your woofer and the front wall, usually between 20cm to 35cm.

Multiply that measurement by four so between 0.8-1.4metres. Then you will have the wavelength of the first major null in your room.

It will probably be around 12dB lower than any peaks in the frequency and between the 250-400Hz range. Everything below that frequency will look like a choppy sea.

No near field speaker, no matter the quality is immune so such an effect.

However, this is not really a thread about sound quality rather than who is foolish enough to be led up the garden path by professional consumers.

Best of luck with your retail therapy.

Rodders : )

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62 Reply by item (edited by item 2020-01-09 17:37:04)

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Re: How big of a problem is buying a speaker with its own internal DSP?

I find it odd this question isn't being discussed more . . . I touched on it in our YouTube review of the S3H v HEDD Type 30.

When a designer makes the decision to implement a digital XO with DSP, it's important to recognise what a fundamentally different animal it is. It's no longer intended primarily for analog input. With any ADAM S Series or SAM Genelec, no matter how good an interface you use, it doesn't survive the AD-DA flip-flip to outperform direct 'hot-wiring'. For monitoring, a DAC is worse than irrelevant: it's a handicap.

On the upside, EQ and room correction is guilt-free: because DSP is baked into the design, it's lossless. If you compare excellent old-school monitors like the Neumann, PSI and HEDD with digital speakers like the Genelec Ones or ADAM S via analog inputs, it's not a level playing field: where possible, you have to deliver them AES-direct, or you're killing them. You also have to use their on-board room correction, otherwise you're wasting their potential.

I would argue that measured response in a laboratory setting is less important than the monitor having internal tools to get correct in-room response.

When you then compare modern digital monitors (let off the leash) with analog ones, the difference is often profound. Not many folks seem to . . .