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Topic: PCI cards 2019

Hi Guys. Firstly, if this question has been asked before , i apologise and am happy to be steered towards it. Ok.
I have 3 RME pci cards ( 1x9652 and 2 x 9632  all  HDSP ).
It's upgrade time. My previous 32 bit machine was built around a mobo with limitations that my pc seller conveniently forgot to mention.
So, i've decided to build a 64 bit machine,  of  24 channel 96k design. I see no reason what so ever to get rid of my perfectly good RME cards.
Taking into consideration case mods to fit pcie to pci risers or availability of cases designed for the job , or possibly an external solution , i'm all ears.
All up i need to fit the 3 cards with ( a/o in and out boards on the 9632's ) word clock on the 9652 plus a UAD duo card ( pcie ).
At this point in time, i haven't settled on the mobo/chip combo.
So my question to you guys is, in 2019, how would y'all build a system around these cards ?. Cheers.

  • ramses
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Re: PCI cards 2019

I would take it as an opportunity to think about consolidation of the three cards into one audio interface.

With three cards
- you have the operational burden having to work with three TM FX instances
- your TM FX routing is always limited to the channels inside of one instance

I would take the latest designs like UFX II or UFX+ to get newest great achievements in term of analog quality, features and standalone capabilities.

Eventually finally enhance with ADI-2 PRO FS which can be done in a later step.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • vinark
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Re: PCI cards 2019

Build a system around a old mobo and cpu. Get a second hand P5Q system with q9550 cpu. I have 3. All easily overclocken to 3.6ghz. And 3 good PCI slots.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632
  • ramses
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Re: PCI cards 2019

I question myself what he wants to do with this system.

An 11y old CPU is potentially not powerful enough and you are missing things like usb 3.1 gen2 with UASP which is important to support quick external backups.

IF an older system then I would try to get the latest and greatest which still supports Win7 to have one more option, but definitely not 11y old HW. I see no reason to limit yourself by limited system capabilities.

Overclocking is BTW nothing I would recommend for a stable audio PC.
It also produces unnecessary higher heat and wear on the components.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • vinark
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Re: PCI cards 2019

ramses wrote:

I question myself what he wants to do with this system.

An 11y old CPU is potentially not powerful enough and you are missing things like usb 3.1 gen2 with UASP which is important to support quick external backups.

IF an older system then I would try to get the latest and greatest which still supports Win7 to have one more option, but definitely not 11y old HW. I see no reason to limit yourself by limited system capabilities.

Overclocking is BTW nothing I would recommend for a stable audio PC.
It also produces unnecessary higher heat and wear on the components.

OMG Ramses, why do you always do this? Yes we operate at different ends of the spectrum when hardware is concerned (new expensive vs cheap second hand), but I thought we agree on that now. The OP is asking for PCI advice and I run 4 PCI based systems and this is really a great sub $100 solution. But nothing you say negatively is factually true except that it was released a decade ago.
This is a powerful system, comparable to current quad cores, very stable also when overclocked, good USB2. USB3 is easily added. Only absolutely no thunderbolt. But 3 PCI slots that work great with 3 heavy bandwidth cards. I am not saying this is his way to go, but it is a viable solution when running 3 PCI cards. Only question is if he can easily get his hands on it, here in the Netherlands you can. Oh and works great with win XP/64 Win7 64 and latest win 10.
Cheers!

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632
  • ramses
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Re: PCI cards 2019

Please don't take it personal Vinark and discuss this simply on facts and possibilities and advantages for the customer.

All that we know at the moment is, that he felt limited by his old PC.

We have currently no information about his budget situation which would be the only reason to go a minimalistic approach to invest into 11y old HW.

All that I want to prevent is, that he does not buy an ancient system for no reason.

And I want also to question / challenge whether a three card setup makes sense to him as this also bring's functional and operational limitations.

The normal case is that you spend money for a system that offers you the technology and capabilities of today for the next 3-6 years and not a 11y old system which you over clock to get a little bit of performance more at the higher risk of a component failure, but still is not on par with systems of today.

There are still people interested into PCI components these days on eBay so that it could be an idea to use it for cross financing a new (or used) RME product where he could do all in one TMFX instance to get rid of some limitations in this area.

Let's first look what he really wants and whether he would welcome to get rid of all limitations of the past.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • vinark
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Re: PCI cards 2019

Still I would appreciate it if you do not criticize my advice which is heartfelt and from extensive experience. Your comments about stability and cpu power are plainly wrong. And of course it is old with all disadvantages. I have no problem if you would say you would not do this, obviously, but don't say it is bad advice, cause it is not! I am sure that if I just post my advice and you yours the OP can make his own dissensions, I don't mind either way, but it is still a solid option.
Please show some respect in the future, I just posted an option, without criticising your advice!
And to the OP, don't worry Ramses and I do this all the time.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

8 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2019-05-08 18:24:57)

  • ramses
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Re: PCI cards 2019

Please read closer. I didn't say that you give bad advices. I simply told what I regard as disadvantages. Or did I say something wrong ? You say yourself that such a setup has also disadvantages. Maybe you get a worn out cpu because somebody over clocked it like you since a long time or even harder than you do. Everything is possible if you buy used equipment.

And TBH ... usually nobody bases his new setup on an 11y old computer HW or he should directly say my budget is only €xxx.

I am completely fine if he has not the budget and wants it exactly this way knowing all this.

But it is definitely not a setup that an IT person would recommend in the 1st place to somebody, who you do not know and where its not 100% clear that there is a severe budget restriction.

In regards to stability ... everybody knows that overclocking means, that you run components outside of the regular specification and that it produces more heat and wear. If you buy used/11y old components you do not know what happened to these components in the last 11y. This puts up risks to a setup which I would not recommend to a person who is not a specialist and asks here for consultancy.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2013-08-12
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Re: PCI cards 2019

ramses wrote:

I question myself what he wants to do with this system.

An 11y old CPU is potentially not powerful enough and you are missing things like usb 3.1 gen2 with UASP which is important to support quick external backups.

IF an older system then I would try to get the latest and greatest which still supports Win7 to have one more option, but definitely not 11y old HW. I see no reason to limit yourself by limited system capabilities.

Overclocking is BTW nothing I would recommend for a stable audio PC.
It also produces unnecessary higher heat and wear on the components.

Hi Ramses.  I have 6 analogue  pre's  going  into  a/d conversion. I have another 8 channel pre. All adat. The  reason i want to keep my cards is because  i have  extra  i/o  on  each cards. I run a split system  where  i monitor  post  splitter / pre  pc. I need  to get  16 channels  of 96k ( smux )  going  into  cubase. The ( 192k ) aux cards  are  set up as  monitor  sends  plus  inserts.  I need  4  adat inputs . The 9632's have one  each  and  the  9652 has 3. Now  if  i can  find  a  modern  mobo/chip  that can handle  that  without me  going  to extra  expense, that'd be great. Maybe  there's a  way to mount  the pci cards  externally ?  How  about  going  to  usb and  using  the  Digiface USB ADAT Interface  ?  Thanks  for  your help  guys.

  • vinark
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Re: PCI cards 2019

Ramses from now on I will ignore you. I don't want to discus what I post with you any more. I would appreciate it if you would do the same, but you probably will not.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

11 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2019-05-08 21:01:26)

  • ramses
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Re: PCI cards 2019

Please stay fair and reasonable. If you post into the public then you need to consider, that there are also different opinions.

Better would be now to look forward, what serves customer best, now as more details are known.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14

12 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2019-05-09 12:17:35)

  • ramses
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Re: PCI cards 2019

paul.social wrote:
ramses wrote:

I question myself what he wants to do with this system.

An 11y old CPU is potentially not powerful enough and you are missing things like usb 3.1 gen2 with UASP which is important to support quick external backups.

IF an older system then I would try to get the latest and greatest which still supports Win7 to have one more option, but definitely not 11y old HW. I see no reason to limit yourself by limited system capabilities.

Overclocking is BTW nothing I would recommend for a stable audio PC.
It also produces unnecessary higher heat and wear on the components.

Hi Ramses.  I have 6 analogue  pre's  going  into  a/d conversion. I have another 8 channel pre. All adat. The  reason i want to keep my cards is because  i have  extra  i/o  on  each cards. I run a split system  where  i monitor  post  splitter / pre  pc. I need  to get  16 channels  of 96k ( smux )  going  into  cubase. The ( 192k ) aux cards  are  set up as  monitor  sends  plus  inserts.  I need  4  adat inputs . The 9632's have one  each  and  the  9652 has 3. Now  if  i can  find  a  modern  mobo/chip  that can handle  that  without me  going  to extra  expense, that'd be great. Maybe  there's a  way to mount  the pci cards  externally ?  How  about  going  to  usb and  using  the  Digiface USB ADAT Interface  ?  Thanks  for  your help  guys.

How many ports do you need in total of each type?
- ADAT IN
- ADAT OUT
- Analog IN
- Analog OUT

Do you need WC, MIDI,  SPDIF ?

External PCIe to PCI solutions exist, but I never used such a solution and can't tell whether it works reliably. Using Google I found this for example:

https://www.integrate-computer.de/epage … tViaPortal

Is the system for pure recording or also for mixing and mastering ?

Do you intend to use also VST and eventually virtual Instruments which might become CPU intensive ?

Is the PC also connected to the internet or do you use it also for office or other tasks or is it dedicated for recording purposes?

Do you feel limited by not being able to route only inside of one TM FX instance or is this OK for your setup ?

How big is the impact for you, If one pc component like mainboard or cpu would fail, how quick would you require replacement parts ?

Is cost your main driver ? What is your maximum budget for the upgrade of the PC and eventually also for the audio system shall there be an advantage for you ?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14
  • Registered: 2013-08-12
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Re: PCI cards 2019

ramses wrote:
paul.social wrote:
ramses wrote:

I question myself what he wants to do with this system.

An 11y old CPU is potentially not powerful enough and you are missing things like usb 3.1 gen2 with UASP which is important to support quick external backups.

IF an older system then I would try to get the latest and greatest which still supports Win7 to have one more option, but definitely not 11y old HW. I see no reason to limit yourself by limited system capabilities.

Overclocking is BTW nothing I would recommend for a stable audio PC.
It also produces unnecessary higher heat and wear on the components.

Hi Ramses.  I have 6 analogue  pre's  going  into  a/d conversion. I have another 8 channel pre. All adat. The  reason i want to keep my cards is because  i have  extra  i/o  on  each cards. I run a split system  where  i monitor  post  splitter / pre  pc. I need  to get  16 channels  of 96k ( smux )  going  into  cubase. The ( 192k ) aux cards  are  set up as  monitor  sends  plus  inserts.  I need  4  adat inputs . The 9632's have one  each  and  the  9652 has 3. Now  if  i can  find  a  modern  mobo/chip  that can handle  that  without me  going  to extra  expense, that'd be great. Maybe  there's a  way to mount  the pci cards  externally ?  How  about  going  to  usb and  using  the  Digiface USB ADAT Interface  ?  Thanks  for  your help  guys.

How many ports do you need in total of each type?
- ADAT IN
- ADAT OUT
- Analog IN
- Analog OUT

Do you need WC, MIDI,  SPDIF ?

External PCIe to PCI solutions exist, but I never used such a solution and can't tell whether it works reliably. Using Google I found this for example:

https://www.integrate-computer.de/epage … tViaPortal

Is the system for pure recording or also for mixing and mastering ?

Do you intend to use also VST and eventually virtual Instruments which might become CPU intensive ?

Is the PC also connected to the internet or do you use it also for office or other tasks or is it dedicated for recording purposes?

Do you feel limited by not being able to route only inside of one TM FX instance or is this OK for your setup ?

How big is the impact for you, If one pc component like mainboard or cpu would fail, how quick would you require replacement parts ?

Is cost your main driver ? What is your maximum budget for the upgrade of the PC and eventually also for the audio system shall there be an advantage for you ?

Thank you  for  that  link.  Adat  wise ,  i'm  needing a smux  arrangement  to get 16 channels of  96k adat  going  in. Analogue I'll have  24 channels  to cover  send/returns/monitors/inserts. I have w/c, midi and  spdif on all 3  cards  available. I'll be  recording  on  cubase  and  mixing  on  harrison. I have a  uad card, but  mostly  , i want  to  run  outboard  and  use  the  pc  basically as a  tape  recorder. I have a  lot of  vst's, but am prudent  regarding  bogging  down  the machine. At  most, i'd  be  recording  a  rhythm section and  a  guide  track. So, i don't  think  i'll  be  over  taxing  the  machine. I have  an old  school  attitude, where as  , i don't  want  to  deal with anymore  than 24  tracks. I have  just  been  looking  at  a i7-4790  and  a GA-H97M-D3H   combo. The  way  i wish to work  these  days  doesn't  involve watching  the  clock. I'm  no longer  a  business, so now  can record  what  i want, when i want. It's  very  nice. Yeah  i've  got a nice  older 32 bit  system  made  with quality parts. So i figured  swap the mainboard/cpu and  ram  and  that will  do me  for  a  while.  It's  a  long  story..heart  problem. So now  retired..by  force  lol. Now  i can create  without  money  being a  driving  force. In saying  that, i don't  have  a  lot  to splash around. If  the  timing  was  better, i'd  build  from scratch. So  it's a bit of a juggle.

14 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2019-05-10 20:57:55)

  • ramses
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Re: PCI cards 2019

I have only my mobile with me. Less text, but more plain facts would be preferred at the moment ;-) It's much work for me at the moment to type this all with 1 finger on a small smartphone screen.

Some things you still did not answer, so it's not clear to me whether it makes sense to propose a different solution to you where everything can be routed in one TM FX instance.

1. You didn't answer whether it would be worth for you or not to look for a different solution to have all i/o ports within one TM FX instance. Currently you have 3 cards = 3 TM FX instances and you can not route across the three instances.

2. For me it's still not clear how many ADAT and analog ports you need.
Therefore I asked you to answer how many adat in and out and how many analog ports in and out you need.

3. You did not clearly answer whether you want or need wc, midi, etc. You simply say that you have it now with the three cards, but not whether you want or need it.

Therefore I have currently no clear picture what you really need.

4. Without knowing #1 and what budget you have for new audio cards I have no clue whether it makes sense to investigate further.

In regards to the 5y old cpu that you mentioned, it still costs new around €327 if you do not want to buy from Poland (which you shouldn't do).  If you are willed to pay around € 325 for a CPU then you should definitely look for more current CPU's.  The reason is that the old cpu's do not really fall high enough in price if you buy them new. Then you better look for more recent models and get by this more bang for the buck.

For that or a little more money you get current products that perform much better. Ie this one with socket 1151 https://m.cpubenchmark.net/cpu.php?cpu= … mp;id=3098

Look at the passmark High End CPU list. There you see the ranking and the price.
https://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html

Stick with Intel CPUs for lower latencies inside of the system.
I saw at least 2 Intel CPUs  between €300-400 (6 and 8 core) that perform significantly higher at same or a little higher cost.
Also higher single thread performance which could be interesting for your applications as well in terms of VST and VSTi's.
By this you can also get more recent mainboards with more up to date usb ports as I said ie for backup purposes

In terms of mainboard you need to look on your own as it is not foreseeable whether it works well for audio or not. I can only recommend the HW that I use where I know that it works. But I think you don't want to spend much money for a ~2015 Xeon based system where cpu costs nearly €600 and mainboard €280.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub14