401

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

willem wrote:

I am afraid I have not yet had time to generate more sweeps and investigate the nasty low frequency peaks, and do some more reading. However, I have not forgotten the project. So this will be continued.

http://giphygifs.s3.amazonaws.com/media/JDKxRN0Bvmm2c/giphy.gif

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Willem,

Good Doctor, perhaps it's time for you to enjoy your Music Collection!    A Room Resonance at 25hz cannot exist without excitation, (ie: incessant test tones) and there are surely few Musical Instruments which would exploit this "suspected" vulnerability in your home.    Let's not suffer from an Acute case of Analysis Paralysis.

We've offered suggestions.   Until then, Qeue up your favorite Music, and Enjoy!

Best Regards. 

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Curt962 wrote:

Willem,

Good Doctor, perhaps it's time for you to enjoy your Music Collection!    A Room Resonance at 25hz cannot exist without excitation, (ie: incessant test tones) and there are surely few Musical Instruments which would exploit this "suspected" vulnerability in your home.    Let's not suffer from an Acute case of Analysis Paralysis.

We've offered suggestions.   Until then, Qeue up your favorite Music, and Enjoy!

Best Regards. 

Curt

Good call... You have a fantastic frequency response and an enviable room size... Go enjoy! smile

RME ADI2 PRO FS R be - Genelec 8341AWM - Arendal 1723 1S Subwoofer (x2)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

I do in fact enjoy the music. The sound is very good. But that graph is nagging me.......

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

By the way - I had to answer anti spam bot questions now more than 20 times. Isn't that a bit excessive?

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

willem wrote:

I do in fact enjoy the music. The sound is very good. But that graph is nagging me.......

It does annoy you when you see a poor response but, unfortunately, you'll have to learn to either live with it or destroy it with DSP.

The only other way to calm a large room mode in the low frequencies is to bass trap your corners.
I don't think that's going to happen so you might just have to live with it Willem.

smile

RME ADI2 PRO FS R be - Genelec 8341AWM - Arendal 1723 1S Subwoofer (x2)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

willem wrote:

By the way - I had to answer anti spam bot questions now more than 20 times. Isn't that a bit excessive?

That's one for the developers of the site my friend.

RME ADI2 PRO FS R be - Genelec 8341AWM - Arendal 1723 1S Subwoofer (x2)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Sparkydude wrote:
willem wrote:

By the way - I had to answer anti spam bot questions now more than 20 times. Isn't that a bit excessive?

That's one for the developers of the site my friend.

Happens very rarely from time to time, there doesn't seem to be a solution.
I can't remember that it happened to me in the last 6 month. I'd say simply ignore if it's not happening frequently.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

409 (edited by Curt962 2019-09-05 00:22:27)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

On Topic...

It seems some have confused the need for Proper Speaker/Seating Positioning with the need to "EQ" (on a Hz by Hz basis) every audible thing in the Audio Spectrum. 

Au Contraire Dear Friends.    Our Ears don't work that way.

The Objective is to Strive for a GENERALLY uniform response.  Subsequently,  a 2hz (high Q) wide Peak at some frequency (25hz for example) is a non-event.  Let it go.

The Research (Bruel and Kjaer, etc) suggests that we Listeners do NOT prefer a Ruler Flat Room Response.    Yet Surely, the  20-30db variations which are seemingly commonplace in a typical home must be surely be dealt with, and that's the entire point of this thread!!

Absent that, move forward with your Lives.  Don't obsess over that which the Ear/Brain has long since filtered out.

And if I might...we truly don't "hear" 25hz.  We "feel" it.    So..unless your internal organs are complaining, neither should we.

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

I am back. I did some additional measurements today, with the sliding doors solidly pressed against the wall. They no longer  rattled, but the measurements were essentially the same, with peaks at 13 and 25 Hz, and of course smaller ones at higher frequencies. What is important to note is that this was with a robust high pass filter activated below 32 Hz, and even so I had these peaks. I also measured with the subwoofer turned off, and without it I still measured the same peaks, but at very low level.
So for now my interpretation is that these peaks are indeed room modes, but that I cannot cure them with the room eq of the Antimode or with the RME filters. What I can try is to move the subwoofer around and see if these peaks disappear if I place the sub elsewhere in the room. The good news is that the subjective sound quality is excellent.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Easier yet Willem,

Move your Lo-Cut Filter to a bit higher Freq.   40-50hz would not be unreasonable.   Don't skimp.  We need a Full 12dbOct filter. 

You dont have a 13hz Mode.  You have a noise intrusion.  That's abundantly clear.

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

I will indeed raise the high pass filter frequency. However, I also had a look at a room mode calculator and it predicts modes at 13 and 26 Hz, given the length of the room (it is a big open plan room).

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Willem,

A 13hz mode would require a 43ft Room Dimension.   Have you moved into a Church since we began?  smile:)

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

No it is open plan and the lounge is 8 m long but opens onto the dining room. The combined length is some 13m.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

415

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

I don't even measure under 20 Hz...
Like Curt said to me mounths ago: don't let room correction drive you mad. It's good to address the biggest issues, room modes at 13 and 26 Hz are not...

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

416 (edited by Curt962 2019-09-05 17:29:01)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Ok...rather "Cavernous"  smile

This begs the question however Willem..."Why are we testing 13hz when the Speakers/Subs have no meaningful acoustic output whatsoever at those frequencies"??  There is ZERO audiblity of sound at such a frequency.   Were it real, it would amount to a COLLOSSAL Waste of Amplifier Power, etc.    All these Shenanigans for something that is simply inaudible is beyond my ability to comprehend.

Just for the sake of the Innocent On-Looker to this Thread,  who reads on in Utter Bewilderment as to why we're exploring the inaudible... Whilst Legions of those in Audio who DO seemingly "Specialize" in the Dark Science of "inaudibility"  burst out in Elation at the great sense of Validation that these laborious tests bring to them. smile

Just Wonderin'!!  smile smile

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

My subwoofer goes down to 7.5 Hz, even though not at full output. The sub has its own eq where I can set a low cut at two different frequencies (but the manual does not say what they are). I will use this and see what happens. Mind you, the Antimode has a 15 Hz low cut filter, and my power amplifier is also somewhat bandwidth limited. But these bass reductions are obviously not enough.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

willem wrote:

My subwoofer goes down to 7.5 Hz, even though not at full output. The sub has its own eq where I can set a low cut at two different frequencies (but the manual does not say what they are). I will use this and see what happens. Mind you, the Antimode has a 15 Hz low cut filter, and my power amplifier is also somewhat bandwidth limited. But these bass reductions are obviously not enough.

Truthfully Willem...7.5hz?   Why? 

Might I add that any Subwoofer would have such a response..."but not at full Power"   Only perhaps maybe... only 30-40db down from Nominal smile     

Perhaps a bit of "Marketing" has been incorporated into those Specifications, rather than meaningful data.   Mystery Switches to Tailor the Output do not inspire great confidence either. 

Let's Focus our efforts on meaningful data that DOES affect the Audible Range.

Over and Out

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

419 (edited by N00b 2019-09-05 18:06:25)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

The B&W specs announces indeed 7.5 Hz +/-3 dB (with 2x8" drivers lol ), but in the real world its frequency range is more OK with physics laws:
https://www.hometheatershack.com/forums … w-pv1.html

[Edit] My mistake: the review concerns the old PV1 (not the "D" recent version).
This one is OK:

https://www.avforums.com/threads/b-w-pv … o.1831487/

the lower –3-dB point is at 25 Hz and the –6-dB point is at 16 Hz

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

420 (edited by Curt962 2019-09-05 23:40:44)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Alas...Let's allow Sparky's Thread to return it's regularly scheduled programming. smile

Surely, there's an On-Looker who simply wants a Tip on getting a bit more from his Speakers.    The Group can do that!   We'll let Jules Verne handle the Sub-Sonic EQ matters. smile smile

PS:  It's called Sub-Sonic for a reason folks. It means you can't hear it.

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

421 (edited by Curt962 2019-09-08 16:47:38)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Hey All!  Rest assured that this fine thread has not gone quiet.  It has merely manifested itself in my Inbox...

To bring everything to the forefront, it seems that there is an enormous Magazine/YouTube/HiFi Shop induced Over-Reliance on DSP, and EQ to "eliminate" the need for Genuine, 1950s style, Proper set up.    This "new methodology" won't work to fix a fundamentally flawed set up.   EVER. 

$20,000 Speakers packed into a Dark Corner will always sound as such...and not in a Good way.  smile

RME made no such bold promises.  The EQ functions of the RMEs are for use as a Polishing Cloth...not as a Cure-All to achieve a Ruler-Flat FR...REGARDLESS...that experience (and Studies) conclude you WON'T like.

We need to be realistic in our views of what CAN be done, rather than what we THINK should be.   Trust that a "ripple" in your Room Response is not a terrible thing.  Let it go.  It's the +/- 20db stuff that needs attention.   

Let's have fun...not obsess. smile

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

422

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Hi!
Just a little feedback on a recent improvement of my installation.
I think this post belongs here  smile
I'm a home user and my speakers are set on a closed bookshelf. They are equiped with little rubber feet, but some vibrations (bass...) were still transmitted to the bookshelf...

A wiseman (his name is Curt big_smile ) advised me to give a try to those:
https://www.thomann.de/fr/auralex_acoustics_mopad.htm

https://cdn.djcity.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/14081226/mopads-tls-2012-09-25.jpg

I've ordered the MoPADS and set them. For a small amount of money, it is really a game changer: some bass frequencies are fastest, more solid... And my bookshelves are no more erratic subwoofers big_smile

Thanks Curt smile

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Awwwww...Thanks Noob.  You're far too Kind, while most simply call me "Mr. Obvious"  smile

Noob graciously provided some Photo Recon of his listening area, and WHAT to my Wonky Eyes should appear but LARGE, HOLLOW WOODEN CABINETS beneath the Speakers.  Hmmmmmmm. 

It seems that there are a Plethora of Musical Instruments that use "Resonant Wooden Boxes" to not only increase their acoustic output, but to create their distinctive tone.   Yes?? 

Why wouldn't Wooden Cabinets do much the same?..albeit in a far less musically pleasing manner...

Taking a Page from that which Pro Users have struggled with.. Vibrating Mixing Desks, etc...it seemed entirely plausible that reducing, or eliminating the amount of Vibrational Energy transferred from the Speaker Cabinet into the Stucture of the Support Cabinet might yield audible benefits.   It seems it in fact DID help!  smile

"The Devil is in the Details" 

Happy Listening Noob!!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Hey All!

Me again!   (Pour your Drink)

Sparkydude has been assigned to Night Duty in the Electrical Trade.  Let him rest.  Dangerous Work.  He may be quiet for a bit.

Noob sent me a rather pleasing FR plot that he achieved by his own doing.   I think Noob is hearing his ADI-2 DAC as it was designed.  Nice Work Noob!!

(Noob's Wife is a Cellist.   We will NOT fool her with any Audiophile BS)

It has been an enormous pleasure working with some of you!  Thanks for your Confidence, but please know that I will NOT make recommendations on expensive "upgrades" that we cannot support with Real World Results.   I will not go there.

Everyone...Play some Music, and Enjoy!

Best to you all

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

425 (edited by Curt962 2019-10-03 15:51:02)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Home briefly, and taking a bit of my own advice...

The Measurement Mic doesn't Lie.   Most noteworthy to me is the high level of BS noise generated by appliances in the adjoining space.  This shall end!!!  smile

New appliances on order

MASSIVE SQ upgrade. smile

People, we spend a LOT of money to Eek out the last "detail"  in recorded sound, while sitting in a space wherein it's own noise level obsures the VERY subtlety, and nuance we're seeking.   This cannot work.

Quiet your Room!!!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Absolutely. In many US homes the air conditioner and hot air heating system will be the biggest problem. In colder climates it could be the pump of the hot water central heating system and the central ventilation system that we now have in many homes. In an open plan home a refrigerator can be an issue, but many modern ones are fairly quiet. And then there is traffic noise. When we had our house built we made sure we had double glazing with extra sound deadening properties (wider cavity and a thicker outside panel that the inside one). There have been some real advances with more modern double glazing, giving both better thermal insulation and better sound insulation. So we know what we will do next time when the glas will have to be replaced. We just replaced the noisy and energy wasting Samsung TV set top box with something more frugal with energy (and no fan). It will save some 400 Kilowatt a year (and hence 80 euro) but also put an end to the humming fan. In my home office, the next computer will be fanless, and again saving quite a bit of electricity.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

427 (edited by Curt962 2019-10-08 02:10:51)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Willem, and the Bunch...

I will say that the UMik Measurement Mic that many are using is a Nice piece of Kit! 

  I got a UMik recently to replace my Cal'd Behringer ECM 8000...Mixer, and about 100miles of Cable...

The UMik is Simplicity Personified, and lends itself nicely to "Noise Hunting" tasks in addition to the more typical uses such as Speaker/Room Analysis.    Just download the Serialized Cal Tables, and Go!!!

Very Nice!!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Hello,
Today I measure my room with the UMik mic. This is my system. An RME ADI Dac, NAD c542 cd player, a lyngdorf sda 2175 power amplifier and Dynaudio 52 SE speakers and a Q acoustics subwoofer.
I have averaged 5 measurements graphs all around and on my listening position. You see one with just the curve and one with a Harman curve. The subwoofer crossover is set to 60 Hz.
Now my question is what I should do to correct the curve?
https://ibb.co/vVgwqb7
https://ibb.co/rvypkwY

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Hi Bliman!

Thanks for reviving this fun thread!    I think we can help you!

In your data, there is a definite loss of energy in the 70hz range.   This is a very common issue in our Small Rooms, and set-ups, and is most likely caused by either your Speaker Placement, or Seating Location.    It's time for us to do some Detective Work!    Perhaps you can share some details.  Room Dimensions, Speaker/Sub/Seating locations, etc.   Further...your Subwoofer Polarity when mis-set can do a Magnificent Job of robbing the XO region of it's output. smile

Pictures of your Room set up would be helpful.  My Email is here, and I would be delighted to try and help!   

Best,

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Curt962 wrote:

Hi Bliman!

Thanks for reviving this fun thread!    I think we can help you!

In your data, there is a definite loss of energy in the 70hz range.   This is a very common issue in our Small Rooms, and set-ups, and is most likely caused by either your Speaker Placement, or Seating Location.    It's time for us to do some Detective Work!    Perhaps you can share some details.  Room Dimensions, Speaker/Sub/Seating locations, etc.   Further...your Subwoofer Polarity when mis-set can do a Magnificent Job of robbing the XO region of it's output. smile

Pictures of your Room set up would be helpful.  My Email is here, and I would be delighted to try and help!   

Best,

Curt

First thank you very much for helping me.
I shall try to give a view of my bedroom where my main system stands. It is bedroom under a triangle roof. It is +- 5 m by 5m and 2.46m at the highest peak. it is surrounded by wooden planks like this https://cdn.zilvercms.nl/800x600,jpeg,q … 18-145.jpg . There is also a large bed. But I will try to give a few pictures soon.
Here I also give give the measurements when I flipped the phase button from 180 degrees to 0 degrees and also set the crossover to 100Hz. and also a waterfall plot (80Hz crossover and phase 0)
https://ibb.co/m0my9H6 https://ibb.co/FJJHp9g

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Hallo Bliman,

Good information.   Let's apply some Smoothing to the Graphs to make them a bit easier to interpret.   For our purposes, 1/3 Octave smoothing is fine.    It appears that Phase 0 on your Sub polarizes with your Mains better than Phase 180.   

Next, we want to Level Match the Subs to the Mains.   This is a simple process explained (much) earlier in this thread.

We make progress already!  smile

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Curt962 wrote:

Hallo Bliman,

Good information.   Let's apply some Smoothing to the Graphs to make them a bit easier to interpret.   For our purposes, 1/3 Octave smoothing is fine.    It appears that Phase 0 on your Sub polarizes with your Mains better than Phase 180.   

Next, we want to Level Match the Subs to the Mains.   This is a simple process explained (much) earlier in this thread.

We make progress already!  smile

Curt

First, thank you for helping me.
Here I give you the curve 1/3 Octave smoothing and with the mains and sub matched. (mail is also sent to you)
Phase 0, crossover 80 Hz and Mic at listening positioning only.
https://ibb.co/zsXj7ZS

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Hi Bliman.  Thanks for the Pictures.   Quite an interesting room you have.  I believe however, before we re-decorate your room, I would like to see your FR Graphs with a bit of smoothing as I mentioned earlier.  Then we need to do a Sub/Mains Level Matching.  We want our Mains (by themselves) to play a calibration signal (pink noise) at exactly the same exact level as your Subs do alone. 

Your Outward Toe of the Speakers might make things seem more "Wide" but typically does so at the expense of "Focus"   

Even the FATTEST vocalist is not 10Feet wide.   Try to aim the Speakers PRECISELY at your Listening position.

Lastly, I envision your Subwoofer moving Closer to the Corner on the right.    This will increase it's output, AND excite ALL the Axial modes in the Room. 

One step at a Time.  Rome was not built in a day. smile

Best to You

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

434 (edited by Curt962 2019-12-03 03:07:59)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Bliman wrote:
Curt962 wrote:

Hallo Bliman,

Good information.   Let's apply some Smoothing to the Graphs to make them a bit easier to interpret.   For our purposes, 1/3 Octave smoothing is fine.    It appears that Phase 0 on your Sub polarizes with your Mains better than Phase 180.   

Next, we want to Level Match the Subs to the Mains.   This is a simple process explained (much) earlier in this thread.

We make progress already!  smile

Curt

First, thank you for helping me.
Here I give you the curve 1/3 Octave smoothing and with the mains and sub matched. (mail is also sent to you)
Phase 0, crossover 80 Hz and Mic at listening positioning only.
https://ibb.co/zsXj7ZS


Ok Bliman!  Im on a Smartphone 2000miles away from home.   Im puzzled by the sharp roll-off in the 9-10khz region. ??

The +/-4db variations in the 200hz region may simply be caused by the distance of your Mains in relation to the Front Wall (The Wall behind the Speakers)    Perhaps you might try moving your Mains ca 50cm closer to that wall...and remeasure. 

My goal here is to try to and achieve the most uniform response through Speaker Positioning, and reserve EQ for "Fine Tuning"   

Im on a Crazy Work assignment, so if my responses are a bit delayed...dont worry.   We'll still be here to help, and allow you enjoy your RME to it's fullest.

Curt

PS:   I would like for you to play your favorite recording right now.   With the corrected Sub Polarity, and level matched Sub/Mains,   You should already be enjoying a much fuller , more balanced Tone.

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Curt962 wrote:
Bliman wrote:
Curt962 wrote:

Hallo Bliman,

Good information.   Let's apply some Smoothing to the Graphs to make them a bit easier to interpret.   For our purposes, 1/3 Octave smoothing is fine.    It appears that Phase 0 on your Sub polarizes with your Mains better than Phase 180.   

Next, we want to Level Match the Subs to the Mains.   This is a simple process explained (much) earlier in this thread.

We make progress already!  smile

Curt

First, thank you for helping me.
Here I give you the curve 1/3 Octave smoothing and with the mains and sub matched. (mail is also sent to you)
Phase 0, crossover 80 Hz and Mic at listening positioning only.
https://ibb.co/zsXj7ZS


Ok Bliman!  Im on a Smartphone 2000miles away from home.   Im puzzled by the sharp roll-off in the 9-10khz region. ??

The +/-4db variations in the 200hz region may simply be caused by the distance of your Mains in relation to the Front Wall (The Wall behind the Speakers)    Perhaps you might try moving your Mains ca 50cm closer to that wall...and remeasure. 

My goal here is to try to and achieve the most uniform response through Speaker Positioning, and reserve EQ for "Fine Tuning"   

Im on a Crazy Work assignment, so if my responses are a bit delayed...dont worry.   We'll still be here to help, and allow you enjoy your RME to it's fullest.

Curt

PS:   I would like for you to play your favorite recording right now.   With the corrected Sub Polarity, and level matched Sub/Mains,   You should already be enjoying a much fuller , more balanced Tone.

First thanks again for helping.
Yeah yesterday the music sounded much better.
Today I pushed the main speaker more to the wall. I angled them to the listening position precisely (by laser). And I also put the subwoofer more to the right.
I have included the curve when all the changes were done.
Now I had to increase the level of the subwoofer to match them to the mains. Now sadly because I had to put the level up. The subwoofer is rattling, I have had this before when really playing loud. It comes from the subwoofer itself. And I don't know what it is. I think I have to mail them to see what I can do with it.
Also, I find (I haven't listened for long) that the image has become rather small. But the results sound more coherent, only a little to small.
Now again thanks for the help. And answer at your own time. I am grateful for the help and it doesn't matter if it comes fast. I will have my system for a long time and sadly I am sick for the moment.
https://ibb.co/f1KjDc2

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Bliman.  Hmm

My rough calculations have your Room at approx 1800cu ft.    In this space we're using a 140W Subwoofer to provide Concert Levels?   The Q Audio might be better suited under your Desk in an Office Cubicle.   My first impression is that the Sub is simply under-rated, and unsuitable for your requirements.    It will rattle endlessly, and eventually break trying to "Fill" your room with Sound. 

I normally wish to work with your Gear, and not find fault, but in this case it may be that the Q is simply not capable of working for you.   We don't call Children to do Men's Work.  smile

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Curt962 wrote:

Bliman.  Hmm

My rough calculations have your Room at approx 1800cu ft.    In this space we're using a 140W Subwoofer to provide Concert Levels?   The Q Audio might be better suited under your Desk in an Office Cubicle.   My first impression is that the Sub is simply under-rated, and unsuitable for your requirements.    It will rattle endlessly, and eventually break trying to "Fill" your room with Sound. 

I normally wish to work with your Gear, and not find fault, but in this case it may be that the Q is simply not capable of working for you.   We don't call Children to do Men's Work.  smile

Curt

It is not quite concert levels. And I don't think that is the problem. I will try to make a clip of it.
It reminds me of this https://www.avforums.com/threads/ultima … e.2239830/.
Today I have seen that I had placed my speakers more to the middle than before. That was a mistake so I placed them as wide as before and now precisely pointing to the listening position which is in the center of the speakers (triangle).  And now it sounds much better.
The bass looks a little to much. I will see if it is still matched by my mains because it is maybe made louder by moving closer to the right.
Now I need just suggestions to get a better curve.
Here is the curve of today when everything is set up right and the listening position also just right.
https://ibb.co/BggNtRS

438 (edited by Curt962 2019-12-05 03:39:24)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Hi Bliman,

Let's keep to such Stereophonic Basics as the Equilateral Triangle, Proper Speaker Toe in, etc.   Both Speakers, and Yourself positioned at 3 Equidistant Points.   A Perfect Triangle, with the Speakers "Focused" to a point JUST (a few CM) behind your Head.  "Toe Out" is just weird, and I never suggested that to anyone. smile

I expected to see some excess energy at 35hz in your Room (Related to its 5M Sq dimensions), and I do...but not at all terrible.  This is the smallest of your worries.    What DOES bother me are the Notches at 125hz, and another a bit higher.
This makes Vocals, and Stringed Instruments sound Thin, and Unrealistic.

Most likely caused by the position of the Mains Speakers in relation to their nearby boundaries.   Acoustic Interference from reflections is the cause, and no amount of EQ will correct this.

Move the Speakers Outward/Backward a bit to observe the effect.   This is no doubt a tedious process, but trust that we are trying to let the Room Acoustics/Physics be our Friend and work WITH us.   This might be the FIRST TIME I've ever dealt with a Room with the dimensions of Military Tent...but know that we'll figure this out.   Those Nulls are the enemy!

We can do this! 

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Today I tested a couple of positions for the speakers.
One as suggested with speakers more to the back and turned a little more outwards.
One where the speakers were right against the wall and flat. One where I put the speakers more to the front (2.40m tweeter to tweeter) and around 2.55m to my ears and speaker turned inwards and a little more from the side wall, and one with eq. https://ibb.co/3NkVpZt
https://ibb.co/nR6KsM2
https://ibb.co/Jz8tTMW
https://ibb.co/rvrqvFK

440 (edited by Curt962 2019-12-06 03:13:32)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Bliman,

The "EQ" Plot looks Super!    How MUCH EQ??? 

https://ibb.co/rvrqvFK

I'm concerned though that we might have a gap in communication though.   Moving the Speakers "Outward" was meant to imply moving them farther apart. smile   Not "Aiming" the speakers away from our ears.   

We want our Tweeters aimed AT, or just (a few CM) behind our Ears for the Sharpest, most stable Stereo Image!!!   I want my Vocalist RIGHT in front of me...not smeared across the entire room.  smile

Otherwise, Aside from a bit of HF Droop, Your Gear appears to be doing a fine job.

Enjoy it!!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Curt962 wrote:

Bliman,

The "EQ" Plot looks Super!    How MUCH EQ??? 

https://ibb.co/rvrqvFK

I'm concerned though that we might have a gap in communication though.   Moving the Speakers "Outward" was meant to imply moving them farther apart. smile   Not "Aiming" the speakers away from our ears.   

We want our Tweeters aimed AT, or just (a few CM) behind our Ears for the Sharpest, most stable Stereo Image!!!   I want my Vocalist RIGHT in front of me...not smeared across the entire room.  smile

Otherwise, Aside from a bit of HF Droop, Your Gear appears to be doing a fine job.

Enjoy it!!

Curt

Thank you. The sound is super. The best I have ever heard.
I just played very quickly with EQ. And I made 6 G on the 300 Hz frequency.
Maybe i will tinker in the future, but for now I am very happy.
Thanks for all the help. People like you make the world go round smile .

442 (edited by Curt962 2019-12-07 02:01:02)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Thanks Bliman.

Gain: 6db is a BUNCH!   This requires a LOT more Amplifier Power,.and because we only have some fixed maximum amount of power available, "Headroom" is compromised.    It would be highly beneficial to You, and your Sound to to find the cause of the depression in the 300hz Range.   I can assure you, it's Acoustic Interference, and is best minimized by very careful Speaker Placement, and I would encourage as well that you consider Acoustic Treatments in your Room. (It's YOUR ROOM!  Who cares what anyone else thinks?  smile smile

Time to put on your Reading Glasses!!

http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/speaker- … erference/

Best Regards,

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Curt962 wrote:

Thanks Bliman.

Gain: 6db is a BUNCH!   This requires a LOT more Amplifier Power,.and because we only have some fixed maximum amount of power available, "Headroom" is compromised.    It would be highly beneficial to You, and your Sound to to find the cause of the depression in the 300hz Range.   I can assure you, it's Acoustic Interference, and is best minimized by very careful Speaker Placement, and I would encourage as well that you consider Acoustic Treatments in your Room. (It's YOUR ROOM!  Who cares what anyone else thinks?  smile smile

Time to put on your Reading Glasses!!

http://arqen.com/acoustics-101/speaker- … erference/

Best Regards,

Curt

Thank you. Today was a day of testing again.
I elevated the speakers by around 10 cm. But that didn't help.
I tested left right and subwoofer apart. If you want to see the curves then just ask.
But I can't get rid of the dip. No matter what I do. Tomorrow I will test again.
The problem is the more you test the more you are unsure and the more you become critical when you listen to music.

444 (edited by Curt962 2019-12-08 02:18:37)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Hi Bliman!

Speaker Height:   Generally Ideal when the Tweeter is at the Same level as your Ear.   Obviously, we move around a lot as the music plays, but a good compromise is to adjust speaker height so that the Tweeter is level with your ear while you are seated in your listening chair.  Voila!

Or...maybe you enjoy "Practicing your Moves"  Dancing About Wildly....whatever.  smile:)

On the 300hz matter...lets simply get the Speakers closer to the wall behind them.   10cm isnt much at 300hz.   (Think Wavelengths)  50cm closer to the wall  might offer some improvement. 

Testing can be perplexing, but with REAL DATA...it is nowhere near as confusing, and disappointing as simply throwing vast sums of money at audio gear, and "imagining" improvements.   smile

Audiophiles have tested the "Imagineering" method of System Set Up for Many..Many Years...and it STILL doesn't work.  smile

Work slowly, and methodically.  Take notes.  You'll gain some REAL Know-How when you can correlate a change in speaker position, with an observed change in measured results.  Like Science Man!! 

You'll be able to apply that knowledge in the future to every speaker you'll ever own!!

Have Fun!!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Curt962 wrote:

Hi Bliman!

Speaker Height:   Generally Ideal when the Tweeter is at the Same level as your Ear.   Obviously, we move around a lot as the music plays, but a good compromise is to adjust speaker height so that the Tweeter is level with your ear while you are seated in your listening chair.  Voila!

Or...maybe you enjoy "Practicing your Moves"  Dancing About Wildly....whatever.  smile:)

On the 300hz matter...lets simply get the Speakers closer to the wall behind them.   10cm isnt much at 300hz.   (Think Wavelengths)  50cm closer to the wall  might offer some improvement. 

Testing can be perplexing, but with REAL DATA...it is nowhere near as confusing, and disappointing as simply throwing vast sums of money at audio gear, and "imagining" improvements.   smile

Audiophiles have tested the "Imagineering" method of System Set Up for Many..Many Years...and it STILL doesn't work.  smile

Work slowly, and methodically.  Take notes.  You'll gain some REAL Know-How when you can correlate a change in speaker position, with an observed change in measured results.  Like Science Man!! 

You'll be able to apply that knowledge in the future to every speaker you'll ever own!!

Have Fun!!

Curt

I lifted the speakers because I saw one of the Genelec people suggesting it to someone with a 300 Hz dip (who had a similar sized room as me). Because the floor is most of the time the densest material in the room. And I thought I would give it a try. But it didn't help.
The speakers are now 76 cm from the wall, but that doesn't help. No difference at around 60 cm. No difference right at the wall. It is difficult to know what else to do.
But I shall post the individual curves in a couple of days.

446 (edited by Curt962 2019-12-09 22:33:41)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Bliman,

Sure. Post up your most current data, and we'll take a look.   We want to strive for an overall FR that is generally uniform, and free of wild peaks, and dips.  Forget "Ruler-Flat"    That is simply not a practical objective in our Rooms,  thus chasing every little ripple in the Room Response is an exercise in futility, so let's not go there.

Our criteria for assessing the measurement data needs to take this into consideration.

*Update:  The 300hz band we're focusing upon Bliman is important!  We don't want that scooped out, nor do we want huge (6db) amounts of boost applied to "fix" it.  Your Speakers WILL protest!!!

300hz range is where the Heart, and Soul of Recorded Music lives.  Let's figure this out!! 


Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Here is the latest curve with EQ. What do you think?
https://ibb.co/SyXhRkz

448 (edited by Curt962 2019-12-12 00:36:29)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Hi Bliman!

There's that 35hz bump I expected to see in your Room.  smile

EZ!  Let's lower the Sub output a few db.   Then, let's create a bit of a narrow (higher Q) EQ filter at 35hz with B1 in your ADI-2DAC PEQ.   That will tamp down the bump at 35hz nicely.    Experiment a bit with the Gain, and Q values with that B1 filter so that we don't overdo it.

Looking Very Nice overall!  Good Job!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Thanks for the advice. Could you tell me how I load a Harman curve when I am measuring? So I can adjust the curve more to a Harman curve (seems that this curve is the most ideal to follow)? I have already put a house curve but it doesn't show in the measuring page.
Will post soon.

450 (edited by Curt962 2019-12-12 02:29:00)

Re: Recommended reading for EQ

Harman Curve.  Ive never loaded one into REW, but it typically involves a small (2db-ish) boost at about 20hz, and a slight roll-off in the trebles.  It's a theoretical ideal EQ curve based on considerable study, but neither our personal tastes, nor our listening rooms will always agree completely with these theoreticals.  As such,  there will simply never be a "One Size Fits All" EQ curve that makes everyone happy, with any music, anywhere, anytime.

I was going to suggest that you merely trim down that 35hz bump with your PEQ, and then adjust the somewhat elevated Sub output just a bit...to taste.   My thought was if we "Flatten er out completely"...you'd think everything sounded too Dry.   That would be consistent with the studies, and thus "Harman Curves" were born. smile

You're in the Fun Zone now!  Just doing a bit of Nip n Tuck Cosmetic Surgery on the FR.   Trim that 35hz bump a bit, and enjoy!!

Don't forget the B/T controls on your ADI-2.DAC are wonderful for on-the-fly small tone adjustments often needed from one recording to the another. 

You're doing fantastic!  Be very happy with what you've managed!!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes