1 (edited by Robertm394 2020-01-18 05:29:41)

Topic: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

(Note, I am hoping this can be a RESPECTFUL thread that is an exchange of information and listening impressions for anyone who might find it useful. I will not respond to personal attacks or other time-wasting negativity. Anyway...)

I have owned the ADI-2 Dac version 1 since January 2019. Overall I am very pleased with it. I love to upgrade my audio equipment just to play around with something new and see if I notice any improvement. I have returned many pieces of equipment from companies like PS Audio, Audioquest, iFi, etc. due to either believing I did not see an improvement or because of a negative impact on sound. I was open to returning the Version 2 Dac if I felt it wasn't worth it.

In any case, I decided to order the Version 2 Dac to try it out and see if I noticed any differences and if not, whether the upgraded remote and added filter were worth the difference I'd pay after selling the Version 1 Dac. I paid the same for V2 that I did for V1 on Amazon.

In any case, here are my impressions. Take them as you will. My system is very revealing, Hedd Type 20 professional studio monitors and Adam Sub8.

-Sound: Actually, there do seem to be some subtle differences in the sound. This is very subjective. But from reading the forums, (Audioscience) I was concerned the Version 2 Dac would be sharper/"crystal clear to the point of harshness." To my surprise my impression has been the literal opposite -- the sound seems a bit more natural, robust/full, and smooth than the Version 1, certainly not harsh. Perhaps a tad more detail as well. The differences are not striking, but my monitors are very revealing and this has just been my impression. I wouldn't necessarily recommend upgrading for a SQ improvement, as if there is one, it's reasonably subtle and likely requires a very revealing system. But for those who are considering purchasing it for the first time, I like how it sounds a lot.

-Remote: The new remote is pretty cool. I haven't played with it a lot yet but it's definitely an improvement. May be worth getting if you have the Ver 1 remote.

-New filter (SD LD). Still playing with this one but seems solid. Doing most of my testing with the same filter I was using before, which was SD Sharp on the V1 Dac.

Main points: I like Version 2 better than 1 overall, sound is not harsher/"crystal clear to the point of harshness" like someone complained about on Audioscience IMO (though they may have been using earphones), new remote is good, new filter is interesting. Maybe worth upgrading if you're looking to upgrade something and want to check it out, but probably not worth upgrading from Ver 1 otherwise (just buy the remote maybe).

2

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

The post you refer to on ASR was questionable and shouldn't have you worried. Meanwhile that user, Bliman, is also a user in this forum and totally happy with his purchase (as you can read on this and the other forum).

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

I bought a ADI 2 DAC in the middle of December. How can I find out if it is version 1 or two?

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

It is scientifically impossible that there could be sonic differences. Did you do a level matched double blind comparison?
Mine is the old version and it sounds as transparent and neutral as can be on a very transparent system with Quad electrostats.
For real imperfections you should measure in-room response of your system. You will be horrified. So put your energy there.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

5 (edited by Robertm394 2020-01-18 17:52:54)

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

@Willem, I don't want to go down the rabbit hole of objectivism vs. subjectivism. I'm a believer in the objectivist/measurements view -- see the horrifying measurements of PS Audio's $5999 Directstream Dac on ASR for an example as to why this is important --. That said, as I've noted before, I don't believe we can be certain that every thing that can be observed can, today, be measured. I don't think that's provable actually.

What's the point of developing new DAC chips then if we've already reached the point where further improvements are not audible? I believe in 20 years, D-A converters will sound better than they do today. Just my guess.

I'd basically summarize again by saying I'm quite happy with Version 2's sound and I don't think it's quite identical to Version 1, but again, unless you like experimenting and trying new tech, and are interested in the other features like the remote and new filter, you may not find a benefit to trying Version 2.

For mruebsamen, if you have a filter called SD LD and your remote has buttons like B/T, LD, etc. then you have version 2.

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

Because technology moves on. Just a guess, if AKM is going to discontinue the chip then RME has the choice of killing their product or using the next chip which will be available after the previous one is not and has more support from AKM, then they use it.

Is the difference measureable? Yes. Is it audible, no.

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

mruebsamen wrote:

I bought a ADI 2 DAC in the middle of December. How can I find out if it is version 1 or two?

If you got the new remote it's the new one. Also there is one additional color on the spectrum display although I can't remember which color.

8 (edited by N00b 2020-02-01 23:56:48)

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

tubeaudio wrote:
mruebsamen wrote:

I bought a ADI 2 DAC in the middle of December. How can I find out if it is version 1 or two?

If you got the new remote it's the new one. Also there is one additional color on the spectrum display although I can't remember which color.

Nope, not one additional color on the spectrum display, but one new antil-aliasing filter on the DAC (Low Dispersion Short Delay Filter). smile

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

9 (edited by Pitrs 2020-02-02 06:59:33)

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

robertm394:
Thanks for sharing your valid experience. It is an undoubtful fact that there are sonic differences even between units with respectful measurements.

I used to own ADI-2 DAC (v1) and ADI-2 Pro AE at the same time for about 3 months. Tens of hours listening and comparing (in a listening room with very well treated acoustics smile ) did reveal clear and audible sonic differences. DAC being more straightforward and present, Pro being a bit relaxed with better space definition and punchier bass. These variations were more pronounced with a good linear power supply.

10 (edited by willem 2020-02-03 11:47:20)

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

This is not a fact. The only fact is that you believe this.

RME ADI-2 DAC fs, Quad 606-2 power amp, Quad 2805 speakers, B&W PV1d sub with Antimode 8033 Cinema

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

willem wrote:

This is not a fact. The only fact is that you believe this.

Yes... And I sincerely hope it is not a fact... "clear and audible sonic differences" between Pro and DAC would be very concerning for both RME and science...

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

12

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

And they would be easy to measure, especially 'punchier bass'. That makes zero sense as both Pro and DAC don't have limits on the DA's lowest frequency - they go down to 0 Hz with zero deviation from a linear frequency response. No capaciitve coupling, no digital high pass, not even a phase shift down there, and both units fully identical.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

MC wrote:

And they would be easy to measure, especially 'punchier bass'. That makes zero sense as both Pro and DAC don't have limits on the DA's lowest frequency - they go down to 0 Hz with zero deviation from a linear frequency response. No capaciitve coupling, no digital high pass, not even a phase shift down there, and both units fully identical.

MC, all the magic in the sound can't be measured!!

And if you can't tell the difference between the two units by ear:

  • Is your audio system resolving enough?

  • Are your ears good enough?

  • Have you upgraded the stock PSU for a good linear one?

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

Well Noob, ( Tongue in Cheek)...

It really all boils down to WHERE one Rang the Nepalese Temple Bells,.or Where the Shakti Stones are placed.   Simple Mysticism 101.   smile

As the ADI-2DAC , and ADI-2 PRO have identical DACs, and Implementation, I find it quite difficult to understand where such dramatic SQ differences could possibly arise.   As at least one User has noted in the past, our "state of health" can heavily influence perceived SQ.    Surely, Medicinal Supplements to stabilize one's Brain Function, and Psychological Health can also have an effect!   

All that Considered...

Peace!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

15 (edited by Pitrs 2020-02-03 23:31:55)

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

MC wrote:

And they would be easy to measure, especially 'punchier bass'. That makes zero sense as both Pro and DAC don't have limits on the DA's lowest frequency - they go down to 0 Hz with zero deviation from a linear frequency response. No capaciitve coupling, no digital high pass, not even a phase shift down there, and both units fully identical.

I never mentioned frequency response....

And also please learn much more about RME units if you wrongly claim that DAC and Pro are "fully identical". They are not. Both have diferrent distortions and both measure differently.

Also they sound differently.


Noob, willem, Curt:
How did you compare DAC vs Pro versions?

16 (edited by N00b 2020-02-03 23:44:44)

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

Pitrs wrote:
MC wrote:

And they would be easy to measure, especially 'punchier bass'. That makes zero sense as both Pro and DAC don't have limits on the DA's lowest frequency - they go down to 0 Hz with zero deviation from a linear frequency response. No capaciitve coupling, no digital high pass, not even a phase shift down there, and both units fully identical.

I never mentioned frequency response....

And also please learn much more about RME units if you wrongly claim that DAC and Pro are "fully identical". They are not. Both have diferrent distortions and both measure differently.

Also they sound differently.


Noob, willem, Curt:
How did you compare DAC vs Pro versions?

Yes please: learn to MC how they are different!! big_smile

Pitrs wrote:

Noob, willem, Curt:
How did you compare DAC vs Pro versions?

With our brain. You should try it: much more reliable than your magical earing...

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

17 (edited by Pitrs 2020-02-04 00:19:51)

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

Noob: Yes please: learn to MC how they are different

No problem:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … -dac.2682/

Noob: With our brain. You should try it: much more reliable than your magical earing...

Firstly, behave your self. Your offensive style has no space when other people discuss.

Then, I have no magical ear ring neither hearing or whatever you ment by "earing". You should learn that there is no magic behind listening to the music. And I will tell you a secret: hearing is performed by ....... brain. So if someone listens, he is using his brain to listen.

Then, speak for yourself and your own real experience and do not hide behind virtual "others".

From how you write it is clear that you did not have both units at the same time for comparison. So you are just presenting your asumptions and theories. No problem with that until you start presenting asumptions as facts.

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

No problem:
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … -dac.2682/

This is comparison of old non-fs adi-2 pro and adi-2 dac, which are all fs, there is measurable jitter difference, because of fs and non-fs steadyclock circuits; and there is measurable thd difference, because, as I know, fs version brings some analog circuit redesign. Both differences are inaudible. Your "better space definition and punchier bass" description of differences still sounds more like your imagination or another variable in your comparisons. Latest revisions brings additional 3dB improvements, and again, you will not hear them at simple tasks like one-way DA conversion(casual listening). When it matters - when you convert signal many times to some analog outboard gear and back to digital domain. In this case after 10+ back and forth conversions you have some chances to hear cumulative effect of subtle differences in converter revisions, but difference will be more clear on some clean isolated sounds, and very hardly noticeable on compositions of many instruments(typical songs). And I will be very surprised, if cumulative distortions will change bass, usually converters brings some additional noise, harmonics and ringing mostly to middle and high frequencies.

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

Thank you for (another) set of assumptions about what I hear :-) .

Grey is the theory and green is the tree of life.

Of course that the audible differences are very small (yet audible). If I tried traditional ABX test with a short music loop which I did listen on and on, I could not recognize them.

After couple of weeks of continuous listening to one and to another RME unit with all different types of music I started to recoznize the sonic signature of each of the unit. Then when my friend or me changed the units, we both were able to tell if we really changed units or not and which one was playing before and after without actually knowing which unit was connected to the power amp. Cause we knew what to focus on in the sound.

Try by yourself and only then you can write about what you hear. Theories and assumptions are useless.

20

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

Pitrs, I am tired of your useless subjective and un-proovable opinions posts that seem to have just one goal: stir up this forum. I have no clue what your agenda is but this will stop right now. You have the choice to contribute useful content to this (MY!) forum (where I make the rules), or go somewhere else where they value unproovable opinion more than proovable technology.

BTW, telling the developer of a unit to learn about the unit must have been the most stupid post here in a long time.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

21 (edited by Pitrs 2020-02-04 08:37:04)

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

Well, I am just sharing my experience on the topic of this thread. If someone gets "stirred up" just by a fact that different people have different experiences then I feel sorry for his handicap.

Regarding someones stupidity,. Is it stupid to point out that DAC and Pro I wrote about have OBJECTIVELY (=by an independent measurements) different outputs? Or is rather stupid to try to claim that this OBJECTIVELY different output is IDENTICAL?

Decide by your self.

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

willem wrote:

It is scientifically impossible that there could be sonic differences. Did you do a level matched double blind comparison?
Mine is the old version and it sounds as transparent and neutral as can be on a very transparent system with Quad electrostats.
For real imperfections you should measure in-room response of your system. You will be horrified. So put your energy there.

I would think it would be scientifically impossible for V1 and V2 to sound the same.

I compared Version 1 with 'another' DAC using the same source hooked to an A/B switcher and the first thing that leaped out at me was the soundstage. Whenever I switched to the ADI 2 it  was wider. Now if you can have DAC's with different soundstage, you're going to hear other differences as well...which I did but I won't get into that.

Why are some people so convinced that all DAC's sound the same?  Amps/receivers don't sound the same, why would DAC's be different?

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

Majestyk wrote:

I would think it would be scientifically impossible for V1 and V2 to sound the same.

Why are some people so convinced that all DAC's sound the same?  Amps/receivers don't sound the same, why would DAC's be different?

This thread is turning into just arguments. I think it is perfectly OK to have personal "unscientific" opinion or preference. It is also a fact that some equipment may sound different even if it is the same model with the same hardware. According to MC, the hardware should be the same, but variations do happen, which maybe not intentional. For example, supply could have different quality, which could make two units sound differently. There could be other possibilities, whether objective or subjective.

24 (edited by N00b 2020-02-07 22:55:21)

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

Majestyk wrote:
willem wrote:

It is scientifically impossible that there could be sonic differences. Did you do a level matched double blind comparison?
Mine is the old version and it sounds as transparent and neutral as can be on a very transparent system with Quad electrostats.
For real imperfections you should measure in-room response of your system. You will be horrified. So put your energy there.

I would think it would be scientifically impossible for V1 and V2 to sound the same.

I compared Version 1 with 'another' DAC using the same source hooked to an A/B switcher and the first thing that leaped out at me was the soundstage. Whenever I switched to the ADI 2 it  was wider. Now if you can have DAC's with different soundstage, you're going to hear other differences as well...which I did but I won't get into that.

Why are some people so convinced that all DAC's sound the same?  Amps/receivers don't sound the same, why would DAC's be different?

Have you ever tried to differenciate in double blind ABX tests some amps or reveivers? Except for exotic tube machine (more distorsion...), amps and receivers quite sound the same... The technologies (class AB, class D) are well known in 2020 and a well designed amp is flat from 5 Hz to 50 000 Hz +/-1dB and its distorsion levels will be at least ten times lower thant the one of the best speakers in the world...
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital … oever.html

http://matrixhifi.com/pruebasciegas.htm

I have compared at my home 5 integrated amps (Sony, Marantz, Cambridge, FX Audio (FDA) and BC Acoustique), honestly the difference was hard to tell... I did find the FX Audio to sound more "analytical", more cold, but it could be my brain which induces me to think that, because it is a digital amp...

Maybe my system is not "resolving enough"... Maybe I have "cotton ears"... (two stars in the audiophool's bingo bullshit...) but I did hear a huge and objective difference when I changed my speakers. I do hear a loud difference when I switch ON and OFF my room correction EQ... When I did find the right place for my speakers, the right tilt... For me speakers and room are really what do make the difference in an audio system...
http://www.ohl.to/about-audio/interests

And I've learned so much more here listening to professionnal piece of advices than in the audiophiles magazines and forums where cables make the music dance and other myths... Where people ignore the simple basics of electronics and acoustics and listen to cables...

You can see this funny video of a sound engineer discovering a true high end audiophile system....
My eyes began to open the day I've read a test about the sound of power cables.. Oh come on, who can believe that??? O_O And what about the shitty cables behind the walls? What about the fuses (audiophiles fuses do exist though...)?

And maybe there are some very tiny differences between DACs and amps, but you should really care about that after your speakers and room...
I know it is less fun to measure the room, to move the speakers around  than buying a new toy... But sound wise, much more efficient...
And how sad are all these "high end audipohile systems", with boa style power cables, 100 kg power amps, marble CD player and very shitty room or installation...

terabyte wrote:
Majestyk wrote:

I would think it would be scientifically impossible for V1 and V2 to sound the same.

Why are some people so convinced that all DAC's sound the same?  Amps/receivers don't sound the same, why would DAC's be different?

This thread is turning into just arguments. I think it is perfectly OK to have personal "unscientific" opinion or preference. It is also a fact that some equipment may sound different even if it is the same model with the same hardware. According to MC, the hardware should be the same, but variations do happen, which maybe not intentional. For example, supply could have different quality, which could make two units sound differently. There could be other possibilities, whether objective or subjective.

If this was true, one should compare different serial numbers, and not Pro vs DAC or V1 vs V2...

And these are professional tools: I sincerely hope there are no audible differences at all between units (yes yes, even with golden ears and highly resolving audio system...), that would be a shame for RME... And as far as I'm concerned, I would not buy such an unreliable brand!

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

ramses wrote:

> that would be a shame for RME

IF ... Why ? There are two different DACs involved. With higher SNR, etc
[...]

Terabyte was speaking about variation of "the same model with the same hardware" wink
And concerning the V1 vs V2 ADI-2 DAC, I don't think human ear can detect the +3 dB SNR (120 is already beyond what we can hear).

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

ramses wrote:

Ah .. misunderstanding, ok wink

BTW .. I deleted my post, I shortly decided to stick out of this discussion, little too late, but you didn't cite all. hurray LOL

Sorry big_smile I can delete too if you want smile

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

How can you tell whether it’s version 1 or two?

Re: For those interested: ADI2-Dac Version 2 vs. Version 1 Impressions

Jblkid95 wrote:

How can you tell whether it’s version 1 or two?

The new one has the extended remote and the low dispersion DAC filter (sdld) in the I/O menu.

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables