Topic: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

I've been using my 802 for several years now via USB.   Recently got a Mac mini 2018 and it works via USB.  However, having problems with latency when running too many plugs or tracking with virtual instruments etc.  I think I've come to the point where I have the Thunderbolt 3 connection speeds, and I want to utilize it.  I'm tired of dealing with latency.  Instead of buying a brand new interface just for the TB3 connection, I'm hoping I can keep my 802 and just expand the digital connection.

Here's what I'm thinking, if anyone has experience connecting an RME interface with an additional RME PCI-e card, please let me know.  I'm hoping I can connect the 802 via ADAT into something like an HDSPe type card, which is connected to my Mac via a PCI-e expansion chassis via Thunderbolt 3 port on my Mac mini. 

Does this make sense?  Will I see a big increase in speed/reduced latency?  Will I be able to utilize all the current I/O and connections with my 802, and only use the PCI-e card for the actual connection to the Mac?

Any input is appreciated.

2 (edited by ramses 2020-01-19 11:07:37)

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

Can you pls describe your system and your DAW projects a little bit more in detail ?

Maybe you are using the DAW in an non-optimal way, which leads to higher system load than necessary.

If you compare the RTL of different RME solutions (devices, connection types), then the differences are not that big, see screenshot of my comparison excel at the end of this posting.

With a big test project (400 tracks, 800+ VST, 28GB DRAM consumption) I compared UFX+ connected via USB3 to a RayDAT (PCIe). I could not see much of a difference. No audio drops on playback up to 96 kHz at lowest ASIO buffersizes (32 samples at 44.1 kHz, 64 samples at 96 kHz): https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … cks-de-en/

But this is on my PC, which is highly optimized to provide very low DPC latencies. This enables the system to process audio in time also with lower ASIO buffer sizes, because the CPU cores are not blocked for too long by other processes or badly written drivers. Also Energy saving and cpu core parking is completely turned off (which is possible for Desktops without creating any potential heat problem).

Maybe you should use DAW features like:
1. freezing tracks of virtual instruments to reduce system load
2. reducing the number of VSTs by using sends instead of putting a Reverb VST into many tracks
..

If you connect a recording device via ADAT to lets say RayDAT you need to consider:
- at higher sample rates you loose channels in a ADAT connection (8ch@48, 4ch@96, 2ch@192 kHz)
- you need to connect both devices to be able to operate the 802 to change reference level,
  to select things like INST or change the phase, etc ...
- you have a little more operational burden by that

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.php/Attachment/2343-UFX-UFX-RayDAT-Latencies-v2-jpg/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

ramses wrote:

Can you pls describe your system and your DAW projects a little bit more in detail ?

Thanks for the reply.... I'm running Logic Pro X, via USB 2.0 (not 3.0) from the Fireface 802.  Mac mini, i7, 32GB ram, plenty of SSD space.  I usually run 30-40 audio tracks, with plenty of plugins, several soft instruments like EZ Drummer, and several instances of Kontakt, some loops etc.  It's nothing too much for the computer I would think.  However, if I want to track soft instruments with my project, I have to increased the latency too much. 

Yes, I understand I can freeze tracks, use more sends instead of inserts. etc.  There are always work arounds, but I'm trying to figure out if there is a way to get faster workflow by using the high speed ports on my Mac, such as TB3.   

ramses wrote:

Maybe you are using the DAW in an non-optimal way, which leads to higher system load than necessary.

If you compare the RTL of different RME solutions (devices, connection types), then the differences are not that big, see screenshot of my comparison excel at the end of this posting.

With a big test project (400 tracks, 800+ VST, 28GB DRAM consumption) I compared UFX+ connected via USB3 to a RayDAT (PCIe). I could not see much of a difference. No audio drops on playback up to 96 kHz at lowest ASIO buffersizes (32 samples at 44.1 kHz, 64 samples at 96 kHz): https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … cks-de-en/

But this is on my PC, which is highly optimized to provide very low DPC latencies. This enables the system to process audio in time also with lower ASIO buffer sizes, because the CPU cores are not blocked for too long by other processes or badly written drivers. Also Energy saving and cpu core parking is completely turned off (which is possible for Desktops without creating any potential heat problem).

Maybe you should use DAW features like:
1. freezing tracks of virtual instruments to reduce system load
2. reducing the number of VSTs by using sends instead of putting a Reverb VST into many tracks
..


If you connect a recording device via ADAT to lets say RayDAT you need to consider:
- at higher sample rates you loose channels in a ADAT connection (8ch@48, 4ch@96, 2ch@192 kHz)
- you need to connect both devices to be able to operate the 802 to change reference level,
  to select things like INST or change the phase, etc ...
- you have a little more operational burden by that

Are you saying I would still need to connect my Fireface via USB, even if I was using a RayDAT?  But, the audio would not pass through the USB anymore, correct?  It would be passing through the ADAT ins/outs of the RayDAT. Thereby making my overall roundtrip latency much lower, I would assume?

ramses wrote:

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.php/Attachment/2343-UFX-UFX-RayDAT-Latencies-v2-jpg/

4 (edited by ramses 2020-01-20 08:25:51)

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

> Are you saying I would still need to connect my Fireface via USB, even if I was using a RayDAT?

If your port settings on the 802 are not changing, then you can fully run it in stand-alone mode only
connected via ADAT i.e. to the RayDAT.

But maybe you want to change port type to "Instr" or change reference level.
In this case the 802 needs to be operational, so you need to connect it only for this porpose via USB.
Not for audio, simply to control it via TM FX.

> Thereby making my overall roundtrip latency much lower, I would assume?

Look at the tabular .. it will not make much difference.
All RME recording interfaces are in terms of RTL already close to PCIe.

And if you use the RayDAT - which is a full digital interface - then you need to add the latency of the converters
on the 802 to the RTL. The latency for the transport via ADAT is so few, this you can ignore in the calculation.

To put an example at 44.1 kHz:

- the older UFX (which also uses the older USB driver like the 802)
   has a RTL of 7,959ms with an ASIO buffersize of 128 samples

- the RayDAT has 6,664ms .. but, if you connect the UFX via ADAT,
   then you need to add the latency for AD and DA of the UFX.
   Its documented in the manual that the converter latency is 0,27ms and 0,63ms = 0,9ms.
   So the RTL is 6,644 + 0.9 = 7,544ms (EDIT: corrected typo)

So ... with the UFX connected to RayDAT you have (only) 0,395 ms less latency.
You can make the calculation now for the 802 on your own.
You will see that the advantage in RTL is very low.

What I can not predict, whether the RayDAT will bring you a little bit more stability (no audio loss)
under higher load as PCIe might be a little bit less CPU intensive compared to USB.

But as I mentioned already, the differences might not be high.

You need to try it out on your system with your projects. Its hard to predict.
The only thing which is calculateable is the RTL and the advantage is only very little.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

Thanks for explaining the details on the RTL.  I'm not sure I follow 100%, but I'll keep reading about it.  I did not see my 802 via USB 2.0 on your chart, so I wasn't able to figure out what you were showing me.  But, if 802 is same as UFX, then I will assume they are the same measurements. 

I forgot to mention, I'm also using the ARC USB. 

I don't know if/when I'm ever changing settings on the 802 itself.  I do everything in Totalmix, or Logic.

I guess I don't understand why the RayDAT latency is 6,664ms, but the UFX is only 0,9ms?  I guess I don't understand how the RayDAT would be so much slower? 

Trust me, I don't want to spend the money on the RayDAT + PCI-e chassis if it's not going to make a big difference, but it seems I'm just not getting the speed/performance out of my current set up.

6 (edited by ramses 2020-01-20 09:02:44)

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

> I did not see my 802 via USB 2.0 on your chart

I created this excel sheet only for a few solutions that I own or to which I had access.
The UFX+ Thunderbolt values I got from a forum member to make UFX+ complete.

> I forgot to mention, I'm also using the ARC USB.

With the ARC USB you can control every device which have TM FX. But only those devices which are connected to the computer and if you have several connected to the PC, then you need to deactivate TM FX on all but one.

> I don't know if/when I'm ever changing settings on the 802 itself.  I do everything in Totalmix, or Logic.

Thats the point, if you want to change something on the 802, then you need TotalMix FX.
And then you need either USB or Firewire connection to your PC also for the 802 (not only for the RayDAT).

> I guess I don't understand why the RayDAT latency is 6,664ms, but the UFX is only 0,9ms?
> I guess I don't understand how the RayDAT would be so much slower? 

The transfer time over USB/Firewire/PCI/PCIe/Thunderbolt takes more time compared to the pure
AD / DA conversion process of an AD/DA converter circuit.

RTL means round trip time. The time for the whole signal chain:
- AD conversion from a Mic at the UFX (time for AD conversion at the circuit 0,27ms)
- transfer from UFX to RayDAT via ADAT (you can neglect this time)
- transfer from RayDAT to DAW/Application via PCIe (input latency of ASIO driver 2,948ms)
- tansfer from DAW/Application to RayDAT via PCIe (output latency of ASIO driver 3,696ms)
- tansfer from RayDAT to UFX via ADAT (you can neglect this time)
- DA conversion of the signal to monitors or phones (time for DA conversion at the circuit 0,63ms)
0,27 + 2,948 + 3,696 + 0,63 = 7,544

> Trust me, I don't want to spend the money on the RayDAT + PCI-e chassis if it's not going to
> make a big difference, but it seems I'm just not getting the speed/performance out of my current set up.

So if you say PCIe chassis .. do you have Thunderbolt ?
You could try migrate to an UFX+ setup, the units price dropped significantly and is only around €180 over an UFX II.
With thunderbolt you have external PCIe which is very fast.
By this you would have the following additional advantages:
- Thunderbolt is equal PCIe (external PCIe)
- no fewer amount of audio channel with higher sample rates at double/quad speed
  compared to connect a 802 via ADAT to a RayDAT, at 88.2/96 kHz you loose already
  50% of channels when using 2 ADAT ports (16->8)
- little lower RTL times (see excel)
- The UFX+ converter have a little smaller AD/DA conversion time
- Overall a better overhauled analog section (SNR, etc ...)
- DURec (direct USB recording)
- AUTOSET
- Digital Gain control, the gain settings of Mic Preamps can be saved digitally in snapshots,
makes it easier to switch between use cases / Mics / environments
- MADI (64 more channels for expansions, where distance between devices in the MADI chain may be up to 2km,
this is ideal for distribution of devices in a studio (in different rooms), no length limitation of ADAT and more channels.
At higher sample rates you have still more channels left (64 @48, 32 @96, 16 @192 kHz).
- USB3 and Thunderbolt
- Device is fully operatable via display (perfect for standalone operation)
- 6 standalone profiles which are recallable on the device
- ARC USB can be connected at the back of the unit and is also useable for stand-alone operation

The 802 you can keep and connect via ADAT if you want for more Mic inputs and Line In/Outputs or sell to finance this.

I think it will be easy for you to get an UFX+ for evaluation.
Then you can see, whether this brings you benefits.

But there can be many reasons for "performance issues"

Logic might also be a limiting factor. In a recording forum I read that Logic can not scale all tasks across all CPUs of your system. Certain things always run on 1 CPU core. There is a certain trick how to overcome this in projects.

Maybe test also another DAW like Cubase to simply use a different DAW to cross check, whether there is something in the DAW which limits you.

Also many CPU intensive VSTi can be a reason for "bad performance" and a requirement for higher ASIO buffer sizes.

It all depends, you should align with people having similar equipment / projects and compare.

Could also be the case that you need to pick a more performant Apple HW ..

All is possible but difficult to tell from the distance.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

If you want further information about the UFX+, I wrote some interesting blog articles about this unit.
It also puts together the improvement of UFX+/UFX II over the old flagship UFX.

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … 8-RME-UFX/

If you want to compare technical data, then you can use my comparison sheet from this article:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … B-MADIfac/
Here the download link: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.ph … 8-08-xlsx/

Here some information what you can creatively do with the UFX+, use of DURec, etc:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … -DURec-DE/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

Thanks Ramses.  You have been a big help!  I really appreciate the thorough, thoughtful replies.  I'm learning more and more. 

I've done some additional research as well, coming to a similar conclusion.  I'm not going spend money improving the 802 with additional hardware.  I will instead upgrade my entire box all at once. 

I'm thinking of holding on to 802 for a while longer until more USB-C interfaces hit the market.  Yes, I have TB3/USB-C ports on my Mac Mini, so in order to use PCI-e, I need to first buy a TB3 chassis ($300 - $400) just to use PCI-e cards.  Also, I need the PCI-e card itself.   

I think the future will be more TB3/USB-C interfaces, where I can get full use of high speed ports.  I wish RME had a USB-C interface.  I don't think I'm going to spend money until I can get the latest and greatest, not something that is current/but older technology.   I see Apogee (optimized for Mac/Logic) have a new USB-C, but very few I/O.  Also Apollo is now on TB3, but not sure I want to get into that UAD world, I prefer RME.

Finally, yes I probably need to do more research on how to optimize my mac/Logic Pro in settings so I can get the most out of my USB 2.0 RME for the time being.  I'm not keen on getting into a new DAW just yet.  Tons of people use Logic on lesser machines than mine, and they have figured it out.  I just need to figure it too!

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

Thanks for the flowers wink

Sorry, but I think now you come to wrong conclusions wink

You do not have wait for USB-C. Why ?
As you might know RME is known to write stable, performant (latency wise) and efficient drivers.

If you look now to channel count and BW requirements on the PC interface side:
- MADIface Pro is a 68/68 channel interface and only needs USB2
- UFX+ is a 94/94 channel interface and needs USB3 / Thunderbolt
Do you get the point ?

Other manufacturers are simply unable to write efficient drivers and blend the customer with highspeed interfaces
between recording interface and PC, which at the end have only drawbacks:
- increase device cost for really no reason
- increase the requirements on the PC side

Its much more practical and customer friendly to choose the interface type (USB2, USB3, etc)
based on real bandwidth demands.

So you need i.e. for an UFX II only USB2 and do not need to take the precious USB3 ports on a laptop
which you might need  more urgently for other purposes like connecting external storage or for backup purposes.

So the UFX+ with USB3 and Thunderbolt is just right for the amount of channels.
Its even backward compatible to USB2, in this case you can use the first 30 inputs/outputs like on a UFX II.

If I were you I would upgrade to an UFX+, sell the 802 to cross-finance the UFX+ and save the costs
for an external PCIe closure as this is not required. You can directly connect the UFX+ to your Apple Laptop.
And the ARC USB you can directly connect to the back of your UFX+.
By this you save one USB port on the laptop (or USB hub).

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

Yes, thanks again for your thoughts... 

I am definitely not spending money on another USB 2.0 interface.  Even USB 3.0, I do not see as a reason to spend over 2.0.  My next purchase will be something in the TB/USB-C family, so I can use for years to come.   

My Mac Mini has 4 TB3 ports, and 2 USB 3.0 ports.  so, I have plenty of connectivity for either type of port.  But, clearly plenty of high speed ports, which I plan on using for my number one resource, which is audio production. 

I do see the UFX+ as a viable option since it's on TB.  Even though, I technically still need an adapter to use regular TB, since TB3/USB-C is different.  Again, making compromises for the connection point.

I will do more research, but happily continue to use 802 via USB2.0 until I decide which is right.  Either way, selling the 802 to cross-finance the new box will also be part of the plan.

11 (edited by ramses 2020-01-20 20:40:08)

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

I do not know why you are so against USB3.

I am very happy to use my UFX+ with USB3 for several reasons:
1. USB3 plugs look to me much more solid compared to the tiny USB-C plugs
2. I can use 5m USB3 quality cable from Lindy, to have more flexibility in placement for the UFX+
3. the price of 5m USB3 premium cables is around €20, which is less expensive compared to thunderbolt
    https://www.amazon.de/dp/B07F6WHVLH/ref … 01_TE_item
4. I have a much broader choice for mainboards, not all mainboards with Thunderbolt support really please me

I use a Supermicro Server mainboard with Xeon CPU and ECC RAM. The board has a very nice design, PCIe socket layout, ...
I see nothing compareable with Thunderbolt support.

In terms of performance .. look here: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … cks-de-en/
Its fully on par with a RayDAT even
- at 96 kHz and
- 32 samples ASIO buffer size

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

I hear you, I'm not against 3.0 by any means, I actually wish I had 3.0 right now instead of 2.0.  I only meant that when I spend a couple grand on a new interface, I want to get the latest technology.  I don't want to spend, only to move up to the next protocol.  I want to jump 2 or 3 levels of protocol based on the latest tech.   3.1/type C/TB3 should be a solid connection point for years to come, probably 10+ or more.  3.0, maybe will last as long, but I almost certain type c/TB3 will last longer.

13 (edited by ramses 2020-01-20 21:43:05)

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

TB / External PCIe is currently the best you can get.
Thunderbolt2 and Thunderbolt3 make no difference for audio.
Higher TB bandwidth is only interesting if you have applications where you require it.
Or to be able to run network / audio / video in parallel (to have the bandwidth).
For audio alone, don't wait forever, makes no real sense.

You know about all this converged communication stuff .. everything today over 1 wire.
For this you need high bandwidth.
For the UFX+ USB3 and TB is absolutely sufficient in regards to the amount of channels being used.

Do you know the Madiface XT (USB3/ext PCIe) ? 196 / 198 Channels IN/OUT.
This is much more compared to UFX+ with 94/94 channels.
And still USB3 is sufficient....

For you the best strategy would be IMHO to get now the best recording interface with USB3 and TB.
If everything is better, fine.
If everything still could be better, then this should be a sign to you, that something is wrong with either your MAC
or more likely with Logic or the way you organize your Audio Projects.

The UFX+ will - no matter how things turn out - be an enrichment for your recording studio.
And if you want to have it extra fine for monitors and phones, get an ADI-2 FS R BE on top.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

14 (edited by MetalHeadKeys 2020-01-21 03:28:11)

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

Hello Ramses and nater9 !

@nater9
Just a small addition, to reinforce the fact that you don't have to wait for latest technology.

I use the DigiFace USB, which is a USB 2.0 audio interface and the reported latency from Reaper is 0.7/1.7ms In/Out. Total? 2.4ms, 32 Buffer Setting(44.1/48K) ! I mean, how much lower could it get? 2ms? 1ms? It's allready great!

So, if your 802 has bigger latency than the Digiface USB and you don't want to "break the bank", you could, also, consider the DigiFace USB.
It's a 32/34 Ins/Outs interface with Optical ports(ADAT/SPDIF) only(+HeadPhones Output), and use your 802 as AD/DA converter !

In every other scenario, Ramses has got you, allready, covered with his insightful suggestions!

Hope this helps!

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

Maybe I'm mis-understanding, or confusing latency/buffer settings with processing power of my machine? 

I can set my buffer to 32 samples, RME Fireface 802, and probably get super low latency, just as both of you have mentioned.  I'm not sure how to actually measure it, but sure it's fast. 

However, when I'm tracking a session, creating, producing, etc, and I have several software synthesizers (Kontakt), sampled drums (EZ Drummer) audio tracks, plugins all running at the same time, I need to increase the buffer to like 512 or more to keep everything running smooth.  But then, when I'm trying to play a part on my midi keyboard, the delay is too long. 

Everyone is going to say "freeze your tracks", "eliminate plugins", etc.  But, what if I don't to do that?  Then what are my options? 

Do I need a faster machine (I'm running Mac OS, i7, 32 GB ram, all solid state drives)? 

Or, do I need faster audio/data transfer capabilities (like Thunderbolt, or PCI, or USB 3.0)?

16 (edited by vinark 2020-01-22 20:19:22)

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

For me buffer size of 256 is playable. 512 not any more. At 256 you should get decent performance. Maybe it is just one or two plugins that are very heavy. You can disable those while recording or use different ones. A different interface, usb3 or thunderbolt wont help at all. A faster computer maybe yes, but you don't mention what i7. You have plenty ram.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

With my current set up, yes, I have to disable plugins, or freeze tracks etc. to keep working.  That is the "workaround"... I'm just trying to figure out theoretically, what hardware/computer would I need in order to NOT do those workarounds? 

Processor is 3.2Ghz, 6-core, 8th-Gen, Intel i7 core (Turbo Boost up to 4.6ghz), according to Apple.

256 is manageable, but I would prefer to be at 32 or 64.

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

VST/VSTi sometimes consume much CPU power.
Some DAWs are not so good distributing the load onty many cores.
There are always some tradeoffs to be made.
You can't expect that everything can be managed with 32 or 64 samples buffersize.
Especially not with Laptops.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

nater9 wrote:

With my current set up, yes, I have to disable plugins, or freeze tracks etc. to keep working.  That is the "workaround"... I'm just trying to figure out theoretically, what hardware/computer would I need in order to NOT do those workarounds? 

Processor is 3.2Ghz, 6-core, 8th-Gen, Intel i7 core (Turbo Boost up to 4.6ghz), according to Apple.

256 is manageable, but I would prefer to be at 32 or 64.

That is a powerful cpu! For a noticeable improvement you would need 2 times the power at least. So look for that in the scan audio results. But you could also try running windows on this machine. Depending on your daw that could make a lot of difference!
You could of course go for one of the scan audio machines. The way they OC does not influence stability.
I have been running my 3ghz CPU at 4 GHZ for years now.
Can you post a link to the results you mention?

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

I'm not familiar with Scan Audio?  But, I'll check it out. 

I just bought this machine less than a year ago, so I'm not going to be making any changes to my machine anytime soon.  I'm going to figure out how to improve my set up in other ways. 

At the end of the day, the Fireface 802 is not preventing me from making great records... I'm just trying to figure out what my next step is in order to improve my results, workflow, speed, etc.  I thought maybe my interface speed was causing me to keep too high of a buffer, but I'll probably just have to utilize the "workarounds" for now.

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

> I thought maybe my interface speed was causing me to keep too high of a buffer

Also consider, if you had products of other vendors before,

128 ASIO buffer size with a RME ASIO driver usually leads to lower RTL compared to other vendors products.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

@ramses & @Metalheadkeys - thanks again for all your info.  I've been doing more research and reading up.  I'm realizing more what you're saying about RME drivers and USB etc. 

I have another scenario I'm trying to understand. 

What if I want to use my choice of high end converters and something like the Digiface? Digiface has Totalmix, but not the FX.  So, if I had a something like the Lynx Aurora for AD and DA, connected to Digiface via ADAT.   Could I use Totalmix and USB ARC for control of all the inputs/outputs on the Lynx?  The only thing I would be missing would be monitoring vocals with reverb since the Lynx has no DSP, and the Digiface Totalmix has no effects. 

What about something like the Apollo stuff?  Could I use their converters and the DSP effects from the Apollo, and then run everything through ADAT on the Digiface?   Would the ARC USB be able to control the different I/O channels in the Apollo? 

Trying to understand how I could still utilize the RME drivers/stability, but have other options on converters.

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

The ARC USB is a controller designed for the control room of a RME TotalMix FX capable recording interface.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

So RME ARC won't work with Digiface?

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

Please write out the name, there are several products called Digiface otherwise I have to reread the whole thread.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

Hello, again, everyone!

@Ramses
It must be the DigiFace USB, which I mentioned in post #14.

@Nater9
You're welcome!
To your questions,
Yes, you can use any AD/DA converter that support ADAT connectivity(I use a Presonus DigiMax FS).
And yes, you can use ARC USB to control TotalMix. You won't be able to control preamp gains etc, though. You would have to set that at the unit itself. The only exceptions are RME OctaMic XTC, Micstasy(you can set everything through TotalMix for these units). (Correct me if I 've forgotten anything RMEwise)

Specifically, now, which model of Lynx Aurora? I had a look at their official site, but they have more than one, listed. So, if it's an audio interface that doesn't support stand-alone operation, you will need to have it connected to your PC, and use its mixer, as well, along with TotalMix FX. If it's just an AD/DA converter, then you just connect it, and you 're set!

For the Apollo stuff, I don't know how their DSP stuff is implemented. Theoretically, it might be possible, if they support stand-alone operation, or you might have to have that connected, as well, to your PC and use their mixer(and effects). I don't know if you have to use their ASIO driver,though, in order to use the DSP effects. You 're gonna have to wait for some more feedback for this.

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

27 (edited by ramses 2020-02-16 09:16:50)

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

> Could I use Totalmix and USB ARC for control of all the inputs/outputs on the Lynx? 

Yes.

> The only thing I would be missing would be monitoring vocals with reverb since the Lynx has no DSP,
> and the Digiface Totalmix has no effects. 

Usually you record dry and add effects later, which gives you more options to find later the best suiting reverb for your mix.
Reverbs can be used to give the Vocalist a good feeling. Not necessarily needed more pro vocalists can also do without.
But if you need them you could also route them from the DAW to the particular phones channel.

The thread is now already quite long and I had to reread what it is all about....

As the UFX+ dropped in price significantly .. get an UFX+, sell the 802. You usually get good 75% of current price.

Then you have
- USB3 or Thunderbolt (if I remember right you looked into the direction of thunderbolt already)
- You get additionally: FX, MADI, DURec, Autoset
- Can even connect the ARC USB directly to the UFX+ so that you can even use it in stand-alone operation
- You still can connect whatever AD/DA converter additionally to your environment as you want
- Can store all settings (also from Mics) digitally in snapshots
- You get phantastic Mic Pres
- Overhauled analog section compared to the former flasgship UFX

This will be IMHO the far best options of all.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

Thanks again @Ramses and @MetalHeadKeys!

The reason I'm hesitant to get the UFX+ is I don't use any of the onboard preamps.  I use my outboard pres (NEVE clone, AEA) and my hardware compressors.  So, I'm thinking of putting together a modular system where the connection to my Mac is all done with RME (best stability, low latency), but my conversion is handled separately...I'm just exploring these options.  Trying to figure out how it all works...

When tracking vocals, I just want some reverb to help the singer feel better, not printing that reverb.  I add that in the mix process.

I read the Digiface USB does NOT have the FX engine (since Digiface does not have onboard DSP), so I would have to find a way to route some reverb into the vocalist headphones.   

The Apollo has onboard DSP (one of their big selling points), but I think I figured out that you have to have the Apollo connected to the computer to use any of it's DSP through it's online mixer (Console).  I've heard Console adds extra latency.  Also, I don't think I want to get deep into UAD stuff. 

Primarily, I'm trying to figure out the best RME digital interface so I can use Totalmix and low latency drivers.  I may or may not add external converters (Apogee Symphony, Lynx Aurora (n) 8, etc), just trying to figure out how it works.  Or maybe I just get a UFX+ and go make music!  smile

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

One other option with low latency is I can just use software monitoring through my DAW (Logic).  I tested this the other day with my Fireface 802.  It was pretty cool.  I was monitoring through Slate VMR and nice reverb.  I started adding virtual instruments.  I started at 32 samples and it was great.  But after a few tracks, plugins, and VI's, I started to get some pops, so I moved to 64 samples.  That was okay too, but 128 starts to lose immediate response on my midi keyboard.

30 (edited by MetalHeadKeys 2020-02-17 16:40:05)

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

You 're welcome, again, Nater9! smile

I have a few suggestions.
The Lynx Aurora is not just a converter, it is an audio interface, as well.
The difference between converters and audio interfaces is that converters perform the conversion(AD/DA) to 0s and 1s and that's it. But now that we use computers and DAWs, we need something to "interface" with the computer, i.e to send those 0s and 1s to the computer for processing, and back for us to listen to the processing.

That's where audio interfaces come across. They 're the ones who perform the "interfacing", but they, also, need the means to translate the audio to be processed by the computer and the computer's process back to audio. Thus they use converters(AD and DA)!

Typically, the term "converter" is used for units that perform A/D or D/A or both, but not being able to be connected to a computer directly. But many people use the same term when they refer to their audio interfaces, because their interfaces, also, perform the conversion from AD(for recording) back to DA(for playback).

Basically, the converter is a chip that performs digital(logical) mathematical processes on electrical level.(i.e if current passes through this pin, it equals 1, if not it equals 0).

So, after the lesson smile smile , and since you don't need preamps, you might want to have a look at this:

https://www.thomann.de/gb/ferrofish_pulse16.htm

You can connect it either to your FireFace, or the Digiface, or the UFX+ , and get 16 Line Ins and 16 Outs of great quality, but only up to 96KHz.

The other suggestion, is to try Reaper(free with unlimited functionality for a certain period) with your FireFace, and check the RTLs with it( RTL on Reaper is visible all the time, on the right top corner of each project)

Regarding reverb, you can buy an inexpensive Lexicon one, and use it only for monitoring purposes!

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

31 (edited by ramses 2020-02-17 08:55:00)

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

Lets work with the exclusion method ...

RME offers full digital cards, but only the HDSPe MADI FX (with three MADI buses) has a full FX chip (effects).

See my review here, the full review is in the PDF, that you can download on this page:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … Pro-FS-BE/

This PCIe card is phantastic, "but" it "only" offers: 3 MADI buses, AES and a phones port.

All further devices that you want to connect need to support MADI. For this you need to additionally connect MADI based equipment like:
- AD/DA converter to get analog ports (from RME or 3rd party) or
- devices offering ADAT ports like i.e. the RME ADI-648
to be able to connect external preamps and to get ports for AD/DA conversion.
For your main monitors and phones you can nicely add an ADI-2 Pro FS R BE via the AES port of this card.

Another problem is, that with a MAC you most likely do not have PCIe and would additionally need to invest into an external case connected by thunderbolt.

A RayDAT is also a nice card, but this is also PCIe (you would need an external device offering PCIe slots) and this is a full digital working card without AD/DA and without FX chip.
With a pure ADAT based solution I see the disadvantage that you directly loose 50% of ports when using double speed up to 96 kHz and the TOSLINK cables can only be up to 15m.

At the end I come back to my point that the RME UFX+ is THE recording interface that offers you the best features.
As you have Apple you can make good use of Thunderbolt, which is external PCIe.
There is nothing better in terms of latencies and most stable under load.

The UFX+ offers you everything ... you can use it with USB2 (without MADI, acting like an UFX II), USB3 and Thunderbolt.

It has already 8 analog ports for connecting outboard equipment and it will be 8 channels even at 192 kHz (!).

You can connect preamps via analog, ADAT (2 ports) and via MADI.

It gives you even the possibility to work fully stand-alone.

And then think about it .. the RME UFX devices (old UFX, new UFX+/II) were always the flagship interfaces which offer you a combination of best quality and all enhanced features that RME offers to their customers.
Besides an excellent mix of all possible ports in 1 Rack Unit (!!)  you also get features, that not every RME recording interface has. These are the RME "flagship" interface, so on top of the "usual stuff" you get also:

It provides you with AUTOSET for the phones and INSTR inputs which you can use in two different ways
- finding proper level for phones inputs and
- to reduce the gain if the input is louder than expected

It provides you DUREC which you can use in two different ways, recording to external USB HD/SSD/Stick as
- backup recording in addition to DAW recording
- simply recording instead of using the DAW and additionally in stand-alone operation mode

Additionally you can extend it very nicely via MADI.
MADI offers 64 channels @44.1/48, 32 channels @88.2/96 and so on.
The distance between each of the devices in a MADI ring can be up to 2km.
Think about how flexible the cabling can be for a studio ...
You can place the UFX+ centrally and then have your MADI equipment (AD/DA converter, MIC preamps)
in every recording room and you will have no worries in terms of cabling.

The ideal solution is IMHO UFX+ in combination with ARC USB and then optionally:
- ADI-2 Pro FS R BE (via either ADAT or AES)

Related blog articles that I wrote:

Among other things the additions to the new flagship interfaces UFX+/UFX II (vs old UFX):
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … 8-RME-UFX/

Nice use case for DUREC to work with the UFX+ like with a tape deck with enhanced features by TM FX / Autoset:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … -DURec-DE/

An example to combine UFX+ with two Octamic XTC via MADI. Nice use case to show how MADI has to be setup on the devices. Introduces the nice feature to use Octamic XTC preamps like a "channelstrip" in TM FX by remote controlling it via MIDI over MADI features. Most important Preamp settings can be stored fully digitally in TM FX snapshots.
The delay through every XTC on the MADI bus is automatically compensated by the "AUTO-CA" delay compensation feature. By this all samples arrive at the recording interface at the same time, even if there are 8 units (à 8 channels) connected to the MADI bus: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … Cber-MADI/

In regards to ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, integration into your setup: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … our-Setup/

Well and your only worries are to have additionally 4 very nice transparent/neutral Mic Preamps of high quality which you can also use as 4 Instrument inputs, if needed ??

With this device you have EVERYTHING in best quality and even do not need an external PCIe enclosure.
For my its very clear that the UFX+ is the best that you can get for your demands.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

Thanks for all the info again both of you. 

@MetalHeadKeys - I do understand the basics, but it's good to get a refresher just to make sure I'm understanding everything correctly. 

@Ramses - you make a good case for the UFX+.   I've thought about the PCI-e expansion chassis, but it's added cost that is mostly unnecessary.   

Coming from a Fireface 802, will I notice a big improvement in the DA with UFX+ vs. Fireface 802?  I expect the UFX+ with TB connection should give me about the best possible latency I could get, so I feel good about that.  Also, as you said, it provides lots of expansion opportunities.  If I did want to add additional I/O via ADAT or whatever, I would still be using the fast TB connections.  But, what about the sound?  I know RME stability and latency will be good, but my only concern is spending that money for no real improvement in sound quality mostly on the D/A side.

Re: Fireface 802 + HDSPe card + Mac + Thunderbolt 3 to PCI-E expansion??

Try it out, you will like it.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13