51

Re: Bit Test PASS

1. No, it's more direct. The ADI knows the bit pattern and measures/looks for it constantly on all inputs. If music would contain this exact bit pattern you would also see a bit perfect message - but that will never happen.

2. Yes, you can.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Bit Test PASS

Thanks Matthias.

53 (edited by Curt962 2020-03-28 19:36:45)

Re: Bit Test PASS

Hi Siemak!   Your English is actually quite good!   

Per your questions:

Question 1:   Yes.  The RME is comparing an internal template to that data received.  They must match!!   Quite enlightening to discover that an inexpensive CD Transport can be Bit Perfect.   So why then would one need a Super Expensive "Audiophile" Transport?  big_smile

Best to You!

Curt

Question 2: Best to allow MC to address that.

Late Edit!  NEVER MIND. smile   MC beat me to the Keypad.  smile

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic Edition"
Cables:  Red Ones, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes (2)

54

Re: Bit Test PASS

Low Latency rulez! smile

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Bit Test PASS

MC wrote:

Low Latency rulez! smile

Ja...aber, I'm older!  I'm gonna play the Senior Citizen Card!  big_smile big_smile

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic Edition"
Cables:  Red Ones, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes (2)

56 (edited by Siemak 2020-03-29 20:52:16)

Re: Bit Test PASS

Me again smile
Another silly question. Is it possible at all to burn untouched wav files on CD-R?
I'm asking because I've tried couple of times, using  two softs on my Win 10 and they always convert "wav" files into "cda". After burning CD-R  it's not Bit-Perfect and bit test doesn't make any sense of course.

57 (edited by ramses 2020-03-29 21:31:29)

Re: Bit Test PASS

This has nothing to do with the audio device / HW ... and CDA is also not an audio format ...
The CDA file is windows specific and it doesn't contain the audio ...

Such info is easy to get by performing a google search -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.cda_file

".cda is a common filename extension denoting a small (44 byte) stub file generated by Microsoft Windows for each audio track on a standard "Red Book" CD-DA format audio CD as defined by the Table of Contents (ToC) (within the lead-in's subcode).
These files are shown in the directory for the CD being viewed in the format Track##.cda, where ## is the number of each individual track.

The .cda files do not contain the actual PCM sound wave data, but instead tell where on the disc each track starts and stops. If the file is "copied" from the CD to a computer, it cannot be used on its own because it is only a shortcut to part of the disc. However, some audio editing and CD creation programs will, from the user's perspective, load .cda files as though they are actual audio data files, and allow the user to listen to them. "

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win10 Pro 1909, Cubase, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/R BE, RayDAT, ARC USB

Re: Bit Test PASS

Ramses

Thanks for explaining. Partly understood as I'm not so "tech":)
Let me ask you last question guys. Is it possible to burn RME bit-test files on CD-R and then perform bit test on any CD transport?

59 (edited by ramses 2020-03-30 11:57:23)

Re: Bit Test PASS

You're welcome, not everybody needs to be a techie wink

Burn RME bit test file to CD-ROM  ... use a CD-Player which is capable of using  either the ASIO driver or a WDM driver (which can bypass windows mixer).

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win10 Pro 1909, Cubase, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/R BE, RayDAT, ARC USB

Re: Bit Test PASS

Yes, and you can play the test with any "physical" CD transport/player, as long as the spinner has a digital output (it was the question I think). smile

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

61 (edited by KaiS 2020-03-30 13:20:23)

Re: Bit Test PASS

You need a software that can be set to burn "CD Audio" (Audio CD), not "CD ROM" (data disc).

This is an entirely different format.

And the "CD Audio" needs to be "finalized", this means the final "Table Of Contend" is burned on the disc and it can no longer be changed.

Then it can be played on every CD player.

Im not sure if this is already part of Windows 10, as I'm using my DAW for that, but there are lots of programs out there to do it.

Audio CD supports 16bit 44.1kHz format only.




Things you never wanted to know about CDs:


A "CD Audio" is different to a "CD ROM", as it does not contain "Files", but "Tracks".

A "CD Audio" has structurally more in common with a vinyl disc then a data volume: (digital) audio located seqentially on a spiral track on a disc, with no exact location adresses connected to the stream, except the "Track #", limited to 99.

Opposed to a CD ROM, arranged in sectors with every data block having it's own numerical address.


Why this explanation:

Because of the lack of adresses an Audio CD can only be read uninterrupted, sequentielly.

Computers often struggle to read bit-perfect from Audio CD, as they tend to read faster and in blocks and buffer/cache the data, then try to go back and read the next data block.

But there is no exact adress they can go to, so they have to read in overlapping blocks and look at the content to find the correct position for "remounting" of the chunks, which oftens does fail.


Therefore a passed RME Bit-Test on a computer CD transport does not necessarily mean it will play bit-perfect all the time.
The RME Bit-Test is a very short signal that lies within one read block.
This does not trigger the problems mentioned.
Still, it does in fact show that the playback path is transparent, bit exact.


Streaming audio services archives like Spotify, Tidal, Deezer etc. are full of badly ripped CD-copies full of clicks, like e.g. the famous  Joe Jackson "Body And Soul" album.

Re: Bit Test PASS

How do you run the bit test, I play the file and it just plays it, I do not get a message that said bit test passed or failed.

Re: Bit Test PASS

If it does not say "Passed", that means the playback is not bit perfect.

Regards,
Jeff Petersen
Synthax Inc.

64 (edited by Inkey31 2020-04-16 18:28:58)

Re: Bit Test PASS

I can play the file from anywhere just click on the file in fubar or Windows media, and let it play?

Then afterwards it should say passed? I do not need to put the RME into any kind of mode or anything.

I just unzip the folder and click on the file, thats it?

Its just a .wav file, currently I am running it on RME ADI 2 FS, no headphones in it says line out, I do not have the USB driver installed, I have the bit rate set to 24/192, running Windows 10 1909

So if it fails that means I have a broken RME, Correct?

65 (edited by Curt962 2020-04-16 18:31:44)

Re: Bit Test PASS

Inkey, the simple Procedure has been explained already.  Just put the Bit Test .wav file in your media folder, and play it.  Your RME is always "listening" for that bit pattern.   No special mode. 

A blank screen means FAIL.   Check your data path!   PC Vol Set to 100%, and other PC "enhancements" off.

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic Edition"
Cables:  Red Ones, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes (2)

66 (edited by ramses 2020-04-16 18:45:28)

Re: Bit Test PASS

Inkey31 wrote:

I can play the file from anywhere just click on the file in fubar or Windows media, and let it play?

Then afterwards it should say passed? I do not need to put the RME into any kind of mode or anything.

I just unzip the folder and click on the file, thats it?

Its just a .wav file, currently I am running it on RME ADI 2 FS, no headphones in it says line out, I do not have the USB driver installed, I have the bit rate set to 24/192, running Windows 10 1909

So if it fails that means I have a broken RME, Correct?

If you really have an "ADI-2 FS" as you wrote ..  https://www.rme-audio.de/de_adi-2.html

This unit has no bit test capability according to manual.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win10 Pro 1909, Cubase, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/R BE, RayDAT, ARC USB

67 (edited by Inkey31 2020-04-16 20:10:05)

Re: Bit Test PASS

"OK, so I have a bad unit then?

I installed the drivers > set the bit rate to 24/192 & 16/441 failed
I uninstalled the drivers same thing, failed
Tried changing USB ports, failed
Different cable, failed
Different computer failed
Tried Windows media play, Fubar, and Grove player, all failed.

I will start an RMA then, I have had this unit for 5-6 months, cant believe it was broken this whole time.

I am getting an error on the USB connection "16 err", see attached.

This happened on 3 different computers." = WRONG

Edit: I was doing it wrong, called support, they helped, the DACs fine, you need to download a audio player that supports the drivers plugin if you are using USB, you want to:

Download something like Audiobee from https://getmusicbee.com/downloads/ > then you want to change the settings to reflect the driver you are using > 3 bars top left > preferences > player > output should be ASIO > sound device should be ASIO MADIface USB.

Now the Bit Test will pass.

Re: Bit Test PASS

> I am getting an error on the USB connection "16 err", see attached.
You misinterpret the status 0 "crc5" and "crc16" errors

The products name is MusicBee not Audiobee.

> Now the Bit Test will pass.
As soon as you do it right it works wink

Next time please tell the proper name of your product, shouldn't be that hard wink

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win10 Pro 1909, Cubase, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/R BE, RayDAT, ARC USB

69 (edited by Curt962 2020-04-17 02:04:52)

Re: Bit Test PASS

@Inkey,

Therein lies the Beauty of the RME Bit Test!

AFAIK, Only the RME offers this function, which compares the data sent by your PC, to an "always on" template within the RME. 

NO Guesswork!   The Data must match precisely.  No exceptions.   This unique system not only gives the user piece of mind knowing that they are sending the DAC completely un-altered data, but also casts an extremely dark shadow of suspicion upon those vendors offering all sorts of BS solutions to "Beautify" your data,.and protect it from Cosmic Rays, Tectonic Plate Shifting,  Schumann Waves, Alien Communication Interference, etc, ad nauseum....   big_smile

If you got the White Dialog Box that said "Bit Test Pass"    You're fine.  Fuss with it no more.

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic Edition"
Cables:  Red Ones, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes (2)

70 (edited by KaiS 2020-04-17 13:27:44)

Re: Bit Test PASS

The bad thing about this BS like 500 bucks for an USB cable:
Although not real, the difference is absolutely audible.

Not because there is a true difference, but because people spending so much "want" it to be there!

That's the way our brain works most of the time:
Real information is mixed with imagination.

A good thing if you want to prevent the bear from eating you, but very bad for objective decisions.


The only way around this is true blind A/B, or even better, blind A/B/X testing.

Sometimes that's easily done with a simple two way switcher by a single person if you test something like power amps.
But in the case of interconnect cables you need a 2nd person to execute it, and the time gaps when "switching" are too long for clearly detecting the (non-) existence of differences.


The RME Bit-Test is a blessing for those with at least a tiny bit of technical understanding, but unfortunately won't convert those with a strong "believe".

71 (edited by ramses 2020-04-17 11:07:02)

Re: Bit Test PASS

KaiS wrote:

The difference is absolutely audible.

Sorry Kai, I don't want to be too picky, BUT I wouldn't write it this way ;-)

Why ? Because it could happen too easily that its NOT being read and understood completely or even being quoted only partially which results in a completely different message than intended by you.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win10 Pro 1909, Cubase, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/R BE, RayDAT, ARC USB

Re: Bit Test PASS

Thanx for the hint.

I named it BS, so...
I inserted another half sentence, now it should be clear.

We can delete the above postings now to keep this thread clean.

Re: Bit Test PASS

The problem was with me, I was lacking the knowledge on how to use the product correctly. To be far, in regards to the driver in the the manual it says you can use it or not use it, I must have read the driver section and the bit test section a bunch of times.

I didn't know I needed to use software that directly uses the USB driver to send the data to the DAC. I just thought it did that already via Windows, I was wrong.

I agree spending more then 30-40 bucks on a USB cable is a wast of money. You should have a solid cable with proper shielding but anything past that point is wasted, same with all cables.

People buy a headphone cable and it changes the impedance, hence why they think it sounds better or worse sometimes, its not so much the cable but the resistance in the wire, causing more or less power to the driver. That's my theory anyway.

74 (edited by Inkey31 2020-04-17 19:01:15)

Re: Bit Test PASS

ramses wrote:

> I am getting an error on the USB connection "16 err", see attached.
You misinterpret the status 0 "crc5" and "crc16" errors

The products name is MusicBee not Audiobee.

> Now the Bit Test will pass.
As soon as you do it right it works wink

Next time please tell the proper name of your product, shouldn't be that hard wink

I was attempting to do it right, that's why I asked here, but people kept saying you just run the audio file, that's misleading information. You need to as mentioned, download software that uses this specific driver for this unit, and pass the data along by outputting to that driver via the software. That's the key detail I was looking for that could have easily been shared.

I called support and they helped me without hesitation or rolling their eyes. Its a RME-ADI 2 DAC FS, thought it was a given but apparently there is another unit that called the RME-ADI 2 FS that I was unaware of, so that's my bad.

I build Networks and Servers, not audio equipment, sorry to bother anyone.

Re: Bit Test PASS

Inkey31 wrote:

I was attempting to do it right, that's why I asked here, but people kept saying you just run the audio file, that's misleading information. You need to as mentioned, download software that uses this specific driver for this unit, and pass the data along by outputting to that driver via the software. That's the key detail I was looking for that could have easily been shared.

I called support and they helped me without hesitation or rolling their eyes. Its a RME-ADI 2 DAC FS, thought it was a given but apparently there is another unit that called the RME-ADI 2 FS that I was unaware of, so that's my bad.

I build Networks and Servers, not audio equipment, sorry to bother anyone.

It depends on your set up (OS, software...).
But one may read through the manual before calling the unit defective wink

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

Re: Bit Test PASS

Inkey31 wrote:

I was attempting to do it right, that's why I asked here, but people kept saying you just run the audio file, that's misleading information. You need to as mentioned, download software that uses this specific driver for this unit, and pass the data along by outputting to that driver via the software. That's the key detail I was looking for that could have easily been shared.

All that is needed is a software that won't change the audio in anyway. For example I get bit perfect test passed with PowerDVD while using optical output. In this case the RME driver won't even be used. Instead it's the Realtek HD audio driver, which is the driver for my motherboards integrated audio.

77 (edited by Curt962 2020-04-18 00:02:59)

Re: Bit Test PASS

@Inkey.. Indeed I'm also wondering about this "Specific Driver", and Secret Software!!!! smile

You'll want the RME Driver for Firmware Updates, but beyond that...it's non-existent in my playback chain.  In fact.  I STREAMED the Bit Test A-OK.   Gee Whiz. Magical.

We've even had users burn the Bit Test .wav file to CDR and use THAT to check out a CD Player!    No Drivers, etc involved.

Perhaps a good review of your User Manual is in order.   Happy Reading!

Note:  This is MY THREAD. Started last year in a moment of elation simply because it revealed no defects in my Antique data path.   The Bit Test is one of the very few objective tests we have as users to verify the integrity of our Media Players, etc.    If you cant pass...find out why BEFORE you start calling "DEFECT"   

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic Edition"
Cables:  Red Ones, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes (2)

Re: Bit Test PASS

No drivers involved in my setup neither and Bit Test passed also: MAC OS with iTunes or VLC or Quick Look... or even with my CD player smile
I will test with my Windows set up.

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

79 (edited by Curt962 2020-04-18 00:22:50)

Re: Bit Test PASS

Hiya N00b!

For some REAL FUN...it's encouraged that we read the Utter BS propogated on other Forums regarding "Bit Perfect"   big_smile

We RME-nians have an Objective Test.  The others merely "Listen"    This is where the REAL BS kicks in!   smile:)   You'll love it!! 

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic Edition"
Cables:  Red Ones, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes (2)

Re: Bit Test PASS

Its not clear in the manual, you need to be outputting to the specific USB driver via your audio player. I read the manual a few times, the chapter on the driver and the bit test.

This is specifically what the support guy a RME said, "Don't use Windows to control the audio, they up sample. Bit-test will always fail if you use something like Windows Media player or Fubar, well he said its tricky to get it to work you need the plugin for the USB drivers, 9/10 it fails.

You need the RME USB drivers installed, then you need a media player that supports the drivers, within the player you need to select your USB driver for output, then play the bit test. That's a major key detail if you ask me.

Based off the knowledge shared to me on this thread: "unzipping the file and just playing it, it should just work." So of course I am going to say its defective if that's the knowledge I am working with.

81 (edited by Inkey31 2020-04-18 00:26:35)

Re: Bit Test PASS

N00b wrote:

No drivers involved in my setup neither and Bit Test passed also: MAC OS with iTunes or VLC or Quick Look... or even with my CD player smile
I will test with my Windows set up.

You are using MAC, I am not sure, I will test on my Mac too.

On your Windows computer, just plugin via USB and let Windows install the generic driver, go into Sound Control Panel in Windows set the Bit Rate to 24/192, then play the 24/192 bit test via Windows media player, it will fail, don't change any settings in Win media player.

Install the drivers, set the bit rate to the same, play via Window Media player, it will fail, again.

It wont work unless you use a Media player that supports the drivers, which makes sense to me now I figured it out.

Re: Bit Test PASS

Inkey31 wrote:
N00b wrote:

No drivers involved in my setup neither and Bit Test passed also: MAC OS with iTunes or VLC or Quick Look... or even with my CD player smile
I will test with my Windows set up.

You are using MAC, I am not sure, I will test on my Mac too.

On your Windows computer, just plugin via USB and let Windows install the generic driver, go into Sound Control Panel in Windows set the Bit Rate to 24/192, then play the 24/192 bit test via Windows media player, it will fail, don't change any settings in Win media player.

Install the drivers, set the bit rate to the same, play via Window Media player, it will fail, again.

It wont work unless you use a Media player that supports the drivers, which makes sense to me now I figured it out.

I only play 44,1 kHz files wink
As long as everything is OK @ 44.1, I'm good smile

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

83 (edited by ramses 2020-04-18 12:20:07)

Re: Bit Test PASS

Inkey31 wrote:

Its not clear in the manual, you need to be outputting to the specific USB driver via your audio player. I read the manual a few times, the chapter on the driver and the bit test.

This is specifically what the support guy a RME said, "Don't use Windows to control the audio, they up sample. Bit-test will always fail if you use something like Windows Media player or Fubar, well he said its tricky to get it to work you need the plugin for the USB drivers, 9/10 it fails.

You need the RME USB drivers installed, then you need a media player that supports the drivers, within the player you need to select your USB driver for output, then play the bit test. That's a major key detail if you ask me.

Based off the knowledge shared to me on this thread: "unzipping the file and just playing it, it should just work." So of course I am going to say its defective if that's the knowledge I am working with.

Maybe this support paper from another vendor gives a little more clarification to you:

https://techsupport.cambridgeaudio.com/ … _Audio.pdf

In short, Cambridge Audio states:

  • WASAPI: WASAPI has lower distortion compared to Direct Sound, thus it is preferrable over Direct Sound, but Audio is still being routed through the Windows Kernel Mixer which adds distortion to the signal.

  • ASIO: is superior to WASAPI because it bypasses the Windows Kernel Mixer.

  • ASIO is preferrable to all kernel streaming audio transport methods (eg. WASAOI or DirectSound) as it delivers low latency, better jitter and no mixing of audio streams.

Given that the best audio transport is ASIO anyway and that RME delivers a high professional ASIO driver together with its product (which you should install) then its quite logic to concentrate on audio products / players which support ASIO.

I prefer to buy and own music content, so for me players like MusicBee and foobar2000 are the products of choice.

I personally stick out of streaming offers and their bundled players (one problem less), because these products are IMHO kind of "wasted money" because at no time you really own something .. its only a right to use as long as you pay.

If those streamig products offer to you hires audio then their players ought to support ASIO drivers or this is IMHO no serious product for this purpose.

This boils down to me to the very simply formula to install and use the RME ASIO driver and get a compatible (streaming-) product/player that supports ASIO.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, Win10 Pro 1909, Cubase, UFX+, Octamic XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS BE/R BE, RayDAT, ARC USB

84 (edited by Curt962 2020-04-18 14:34:50)

Re: Bit Test PASS

There ya go Inkey!   Ramses is our Resident Connectivity Doctor, so follow his guidance!   There will be NO Name-Calling, Hair-Pulling, or Ill-Will in MY Thread!    (exception:  Eye Rolling, and Vulgar Hand Gestures may be tolerated as long as they are not visibile to the community at large) smile

Bit Test is our friend.  Let it work for you!

Good Health to All!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic Edition"
Cables:  Red Ones, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes (2)