1 Topic by meirionwyllt (edited by meirionwyllt 2020-04-02 17:15:44)

  • Registered: 2020-03-28
  • Posts: 3

Topic: Sharing DAW session audio with others remotely using Zoom etc

Using RME Fireface UCX with Cubase 7.

What with the new social distancing measures brought in due to the Coronavirus, working on demos in Cubase with my band mate is no longer possible. Therefore we've been trying to use video conferencing software such as Zoom to do this remotely. So the studio in my house, where we were recording, I start a Zoom meeting and share my screen.

We don't need to be able to record remotely, only to monitor remotely, because we're currently only working on the structure of half a dozen projects that we've previously recorded the bits for. Also, the audio quality doesn't need to be amazing, because we're not mixing at all.

The video side is simple, and works a treat, but the audio is more complex of course. I need to be able to send the Cubase audio (our projects only use outs 1/2 in Cubase), and my voice (microphone into AN 2) through the Zoom session (and adjust the mix between the two, depending on what the other guy prefers), and then I need to get the other guy's voice from Zoom and into TotalMix FX (and adjust the mix between the two, to suit me) which then goes into my headphones on PH 7/8. Hear my own voice in my own mix isn't necessary, but would be a bonus.

I've got it to work somewhat, i.e. the signals are being sent where I need them, but I'm having trouble sending enough volume from Cubase to the other guy. Also I don't seem to be able to adjust the balance of levels as mentioned above. The quality of the signal that he gets on the other end is woefully bad, apparently, almost unlistenable. We really aren't expecting much in terms of quality, but he says it's like listening to music underwater.

Both of us have decent broadband connections (it's fibre on my end so my upload is about 10Mbps), so I'm thinking it's something to do with the audio routing setup at my end. I've been using DAWs for years but only with a very simple mixer setup. Routing between different ins/outs and software playback is quite new to me.

All of TotalMix FXs Ins and Outs are visible inside Zoom, so any In can be used as Zoom's 'speaker' and any Out can be used as Zoom's 'microphone'

Can you describe the settings I would need to set in TotalMix FX to get this to work?

Many thanks.

2 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2020-04-03 06:44:34)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
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  • Registered: 2012-10-14
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Re: Sharing DAW session audio with others remotely using Zoom etc

I recommend you to 1st learn to work with TM FX.

Sources of information
a) RME Video Tutorials
    https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … al-Videos/   

b) My step by step guide for 1st setup containing general hints
    https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … rnal-equi/
   
c) the manual

d) this forum, there are many threads where routing and audio on Windows PC is being explained

This thread here is quite fresh with background information about ASIO and non-ASIO aware applications.
EDIT (forgot link): https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 15#p152415

The setup that you describe has some areas of difficulties for you:

1 basic TM FX knowledge ... routing etc
2. WAN (wide area network) between communication partner
   - if communication partners use different providers, then the voice and video traffic might have to cross
     backbones of several providers or internet exchange points
   - if the communication software is not peer to peer, then all participants need to meet / exchange sessions
     through hub site which has to multiplex audio and video across the different communication partners
3. a conferencing software where you do not know exactly how it works
    - peer-to-peer with hopefully no bandwidth limitations and hopefully low latency
    - or communication through a hub where you do not know exactly where it is located,
      whether it is overloaded and how the connection quality of every participant is
   Rule of thumb .. if it doesn't cost anything then the quality will be shit, expecially now where everybody
   who is in the same boat like you, will use it (high and unexpected bandwidth consumption for the providers)
4. You do not know or need to find out whether the communication software can use ASIO, if yes, use that.
    Otherwise you have to work with the WDM devices
5. then you need to know the usual things how to route with DAW / TM FX ... not difficult, but if all this comes together ...
    Please be reasonable and take your time ..

Troubleshooting:
If the DAW sends audio through one stereo port.
And there you have audio issues on the other side.
And you dont know whether the issue is already on your side.
Well .. guy its so easy .. then please route this audio also to your local phones output, then you know ....
This I mean, you need to get acquainted to your setup, then everything will be much more easy for you to setup and troubleshoot "systematically".

You might also have to look whether you have a performance problem on your PC running both, DAW and the Video Conferencing software. Maybe you also need a higher ASIO buffersize. But then you get more latency in ... This is the way it goes and over WAN you have an additional Latency / Round Trip Time of between 13 - 40ms alone.

If Video and Audio does not work together, well then get rid of Video .. Video you could also perform over another medium like over Smartphone. Then you do not consume too much bandwidth.

If all this is not possible with your conferencing software, then try it with other solutions from the gaming sector.

I remember that many years ago Ventrilo had an excellent Voice quality.

You can also try to rent an own server from a provider, best from the provider where you all are connected to.
And then you can deploy an own ventrilo server on a virtual server which gives you most likely a much better quality, compared having to use a server, which is loaded by hundreds of other user session, then its all dedicated for only you few people.

Be creative ! Good luck.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • Registered: 2019-03-12
  • Posts: 42

Re: Sharing DAW session audio with others remotely using Zoom etc

that is a solid answer and as about as concise as you can get.
I think at the moment, when global bandwidth capacity is being raided, and IT /telephony service workers are overstretched or  ill or whatever, you'll have to cut the sessions according to your cloth, so to speak. Quality latency between your band is asking a bit much

  • Registered: 2020-03-28
  • Posts: 3

Re: Sharing DAW session audio with others remotely using Zoom etc

Hi ramses, many thanks for taking the time to reply to me. Much appreciated. It's only now that I've able to sit down and have a long look at this.

I do understand the concept behind routing. I've used many hardware mixers over the years and understand how to create submixes for the aux outs etc. But it's just the software side that I'm not 100% with, the relationship between the applications and the Software Playback channels in TM FX.

Thanks for the additional list - I shall have a look at these, although I have looked at many youtube videos on TM FX before posting, and I do mostly get it. But adding something like video conferencing into the mix takes it beyond the scope of the guides that are online that I've found.

I'll try to respond to some of your points...

ramses wrote:

2. WAN (wide area network) between communication partner

In my case I don't believe that this is having a noticeable effect. My upload is about 10Mbps and the other guy's download is 15Mbps, and when we last tried this neither of us had anything else going in our houses using the bandwidth, apart from our phones (in stadby mode) syncing regular data, which would be negligible.

ramses wrote:

3. a conferencing software where you do not know exactly how it works

I think I may have discovered something that might have a significant effect on the audio quality at the other end. I found this very detailed guide that looks like has only been in existence for a few of days... https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qGqDh5 … lY1_r/view Page 24 of this has a settings in Zoom called 'Enable Original Sound' (that need to be switched on at the zoom.us website before they are made available in the Zoom client) that looks essential if you're passing music through Zoom. I'll give that a go.

ramses wrote:

4. You do not know or need to find out whether the communication software can use ASIO, if yes, use that.

From what I've found whilst searching, Zoom does not use ASIO. Also, the guide above does not once mention ASIO, therefore I'm assuming that it doesn't. Regarding WDM, I read the post you wrote on the other thread...

ramses wrote:

<b>Non-ASIO aware OS / Applications -> WDM devices</b>
Windows and Applications who do not support ASIO need the WDM devices.
You create those in the RME driver settings, best only for those i/o ports which you require (speakers, phones, mic).
There is a TAB speaker, selec the I/O port which you want to use as default windows sound device.
Such an entry is created in the Windows audio settings.
There you need to make is the default sound device. Thats it for sound output under Windows and non-ASIO aware apps.

Unfortunately, after reading I'm unaware as to what I need to do. The first part of it seems to point to the 'Fireface USB Settings' utility, but then it seems to be referring to Windows settings.

ramses wrote:

If Video and Audio does not work together, well then get rid of Video .. Video you could also perform over another medium like over Smartphone. Then you do not consume too much bandwidth.

The video cannot be moved from Zoom onto something like whatsapp because I need to send the Cubase screen over the video.

ramses wrote:

You might also have to look whether you have a performance problem on your PC running both, DAW and the Video Conferencing software. Maybe you also need a higher ASIO buffersize. But then you get more latency in ... This is the way it goes and over WAN you have an additional Latency / Round Trip Time of between 13 - 40ms alone.

My PC is coping OK with resources. There's not much going on anyway - Cubase with mainly audio channels and very little in terms of plugins or VSTi. And Zoom doesn't consume much.

So perhaps the Zoom original sound thing above will help the audio quality, but I need to get the mixes right for me (between the Cubase main out and other guy's voice) and for him (between the Cubase main out and my voice). When I'm referring to "voice" here, I don't mean singing/recording voice, I just mean us two chatting over the music about what to do next. If I decrease my own voice in my own mix, then it decreases it for him as well, so I've something wrong somewhere. Here's what I have set up...

Windows - Sound Settings:
Main out - Speakers (RME Fireface UCX)

Cubase:
Main Out - AN 1/2

TotalMix FX Hardware Inputs:
AN 2 - I plug my mic in here

TotalMix FX Software Playback:
AN 1/2 labelled as 'Cubase'
AN 3/4 labelled as 'Zoom'

TotalMix FX Hardware Outputs:
AN 3/4 labelled as 'Dave' (the other guy) - Loopback enabled
AN 7/8 assigned to Phones 1 (PH 7/8) - Loopback enabled - I plug my headphones in here

To do my own submix I click on Phones 1 (PH 7/8) and give it signal from channels 'Mic 2', 'Cubase', and 'Zoom' - only those
To do Dave's submix I click channel 'Dave' (AN 3/4) and give it signal from channels 'Mic 2' and 'Cubase' - only those

Zoom - Audio Settings:
'Speaker' is set to 'Analog (7+8)(RME Fireface UCX)'
'Microphone' is set to 'Analog (3+4)(RME Fireface UCX)'


Is there anything in the above setup that jumps out to you as being wrong, given what I want to achieve?

Thanks so much.

  • Registered: 2020-03-28
  • Posts: 3

Re: Sharing DAW session audio with others remotely using Zoom etc

I'm still having problems with the mixes of this unfortunately. Is there anything in the bottom of my last post that looks not right to you?

  • ramses
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  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 12,064

Re: Sharing DAW session audio with others remotely using Zoom etc

If Zoom is unable to support ASIO and if you need to get something from an input or to an output then you need to create WDM devices in driver settings . Did you do this already ?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13