Topic: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

Hello, i’m looking to replace my existing dac to improve the quality of my Qobuz listening (I’m using the Qobuz interface on my computer, not the Bluos from the node2)

At first i tought to buy an ADI2 dac and connect by usb (or Toslink) to my computer and the out to my preamp, no problem there since the output can be set.
But maybe a second possibility would be to buy the Pro version and to connect it between my preamp and poweramp.

That way it would be possible to eq my phono signal (it seems nice to have that possibility)

What i mean is that i connect my preamp out (2,8 kohm) to the ‘analogue in‘ of the ADI-2 pro.
Another possibility is to connect the phonostage out (520 ohm) directly to the ADI-2 pro thus making my preamp obsolete (but i kind of like that thing and how it glows)

If the above is possible, i have the problem that my preamp is having RCA connectors, so i would need a cable ‘rca to xlr’, i’m not planning on soldering one myself, so if i would buy one, in that case, do i need to change that ground connection?

Thanks for your comments,

Project rpm9 - EAR834 / Imac computer - Bluesound node2 / Primaluna prologue 3 + 4 (el34) / Piega 701

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

louis be wrote:

At first i tought to buy an ADI2 dac and connect by usb (or Toslink) to my computer and the out to my preamp, no problem there since the output can be set.

Why would you want to connect the ADI-2/* via TOSLINK to the PC ? On the PC side I assume you have only a normal consumer audio card for PC, correct ? Then your whole solution would be based on this consumer HW with potentially not so good drivers and most likely without ASIO support.

I would connect the ADI-2/* via USB to the PC and make this your main audio interface.

But maybe a second possibility would be to buy the Pro version and to connect it between my preamp and poweramp.
That way it would be possible to eq my phono signal (it seems nice to have that possibility)

If your preamp has an optical output, then you can even connect it to the ADI-2 DAC.
If not, then take the Pro version.

What i mean is that i connect my preamp out (2,8 kohm) to the ‘analogue in‘ of the ADI-2 pro. Another possibility is to connect the phonostage out (520 ohm) directly to the ADI-2 pro thus making my preamp obsolete (but i kind of like that thing and how it glows)

Whatever you prefer.

If the above is possible, i have the problem that my preamp is having RCA connectors, so i would need a cable ‘rca to xlr’, i’m not planning on soldering one myself, so if i would buy one, in that case, do i need to change that ground connection?

You can buy such cables. I can't predict if you will get ground issues.
My preferences is balanced or optical cabling.

If you can effort then get the Pro FS R BE. Now with the remote its a "nobrainer" even for HiFi use
where you usually want a remote control...

Its the more flexible device which gives you more options to try whats the best setup for you.
It has
- two D/A converter not only one
- two of the same phones outputs which is nice when comparing phones
- analog input
- digital outputs
- supports also AES besides ADAT/SPDIF
- supports SRC (Sample Rate Conversion) if you need to connect a device with a different sample rate as i.e. DAT recorder

I would test whether it won't be better to use the ADI-2 Pro FS R BE as preamp to have a simple, small, tidy setup.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

Thank you for the most complete answer one can ask for.

4 (edited by ramses 2020-04-06 19:11:10)

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

Some more ideas ..

If your PC is not near your HiFi componens or if you want to separate PC / HiFi environment.

-  get an inexpensive RME USB interface with optical ports for the PC like the Digiface USB (€357)
-  use the ADI-2 DAC FS or ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in front of your HiFi

Between Digiface USB and ADI-2 Pro FS R BE use a TOSLINK cable of 10-15m length.
In a good case of luck 15 or even 20m work (maybe not up to 192 kHz).
For me it works fine between UFX+ (PC workplace) and ADI-2 FS R BE in front of a High-End HiFi with 15m TOSLINK cable
up to 15m. I use TOSLINK cable from Mutec which is fine to place along the walls ...

USB2 can be up to 5m, plus 10-20m TOSLINK cable makes 15-25m ... thats already a lot.

BTW in front of the ADI-2 Pro FS R BE you can even place a 4:1 TOSLINK switcher.
This allows you to switch between up to 4 digital sources, i.e.
- from PC
- from BluRay Player
- from TV

The ASCII schematics for this is:

PC ---USB--->DigifaceUSB+---ADAT/TOSLINK------>+
                                        +-- 3xADAT Reserve       |
                                                                              +4:1Switch---ADAT/TOSLINK--->ADI2ProFS---Analog/Balanced--->Poweramp
                                  BluRay---SPDIF/TOSLINK--->+
                                         TV---SPDIF/TOSLINK--->+
                     Reserve---ADATorSPDIF/TOSLINK--->+


Digiface USB                - €    357 - https://www.thomann.de/de/rme_digiface_usb.htm
ADI-2 Pro FS R BE        - €  1779 - https://www.thomann.de/de/rme_adi_2_pro … dition.htm
TOSLINK 4:1 Switcher - € 86,95 - https://www.lindy.de/4-Port-TosLink-Aud … p;pi=70416
TOSLINK Cable 10m    - € 15,90 - https://www.thomann.de/de/mutec_optisches_kabel_10m.htm

In regards to the quality of TOSLINK switchers, not all support 192 kHz like the Oehlbach Optosel 4:1 although they claim it.
For the Lindy one I don't know, they claim it .. maybe worth a try.
If you want a good looking one ... take the Oehlbach Optosel 4:1 (up to 96 kHz, not more, but its fully sufficient).

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

Thanks again for the followup !

To be honest, i had no idea that usb is preferable above Toslink, but since i will have to make some re-arrangements to ‘fit’ the new dac it will be possible to connect with a 5m usb cable, i will certainly use that option.

6 (edited by ramses 2020-04-07 07:11:13)

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

> i had no idea that usb is preferable above Toslink

Not in general terms or quality, in terms of your setup.

So pls do not take this information out of context and possibly misunderstand it as if digital data transfer via USB is better than via TOSLINK. That would be wrong and I neither said nor meant that.

You hadn't exactly described your connection scenario, and just said you wanted to connect the ADI-2/* optical to a PC. There was my fear that a consumer audio card was involved. And there it could be that the audio quality wouldn't be as good if audio was routed through the Windows Audio System and Windows Mixer, depending on which drivers are available or in use.

To avoid all these problems, I thought it would be better to connect the ADI via USB. Not because USB would be better in general, no, just so the ADI-2/* can become the primary audio interface for your PC.

This has several advantages:

1. The ASIO driver (Driver Settings Dialog) contains a diagnostic function that allows you to determine whether the USB transport is working properly or whether there is a cable or connector problem.

2. ASIO drivers are generally very reliable and optimized for the hardware, have a very low delay and the ASIO driver quality is legendary at RME.

Please explain to me, why you should deal with a consumer audio interface in the signal chain when you get much more noble and better components together with the ADI-2/* in terms of drivers and technology ?

While we're on the subject, don't get fooled by hi-fi shops / internet offers, don't buy a USB or TOSLINK cable costing several hundred Euros, that's wasted money. SImply take good shielded cable with good plugs. Lindy has good premium cable offers in the price range of €10-25. Thats fully sufficient. Digital 0 and Digital 1 has no sound ... it will simply be reliably transferred as "0" and "1". Otherwise you could not make any backup of your PC to USB disk .. ever thought ' bout that ?!

With the ADI-2/*, there are two things to validate if audio is transmitted bit-perfect, or to check if USB transport errors occurred during data transfer:

1. driver settings dialog: CRC Test, leave window open when playing audio. If the CRC counter does not hit or increments, then there are no USB transport errors, which means the cable is ok. And you should be able to do this with any cable that complies with the USB standard.

2. with the Bit Perfect Test. RME offers free short audio test files for download. If the ADI-2/* receives the Wave Audio data Bit Perfect during playback in the player, a corresponding message appears in the ADI's display. This proves that the end-to-end bit connection is perfect. There is no better way than bit perfect.
Make sure
- to use a player that supports ASIO, so that you can use the RME ASIO driver and
- that the volume in the player is set to 100%.

Any digital AUDIO transport is equal / equally good. There are only marginal differences in the "physics", the cable.
With optical cables you have an additional galvanic isolation. And there are minor differences in the cable length according to standards.

I hope I could make this clearer.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

You certainly did, thanks again !

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

Hello again, I was sure i could figure this out myself but ... seems i can't ...
I realise that if i connect my phono (directly from phono stage or from preamp) to the ADI-2/* analogue IN, i will have two extra's :
- i'm able to eq the phono signal
- the phono signal is converted to a digital signal
I have read topics about ripping vinyl and i suppose this now should be possible but i don't now how to connect.

So on the adi-2/* i will have two inputs :
- the digital stream coming from my iMac (Qobuz) by usb
- the analogue phono signal by analogue IN

Question is how to connect a digital out from the adi-2/* to my iMac ?
I have no digital input on my iMac (previous iMac versions use to have a digital mic in, mine does not)

I read that it is possible to output the digital signal on a adi-2/* to the usb, but in my case that usb is used to receive the iMac/Qobuz data

Certainly i will not stream music and rip vinyl at the same time but is it so that because the ads-2/* switches the usb to output that my iMac will also consider that usb port as an input at that moment ? Maybe it is as simple as that but i need to know because if i need an extra device to make this happen, i need to rearrange my setup.

Sorry if this is a stupid question but i was not able to find a similar situation.
Thanks for your reply !

9 (edited by ramses 2020-04-18 17:14:21)

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

You
- need an ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, because the ADI-2 DAC has no analog inputs.
- connect an ADI-2 Pro/* to your PC / Apple via USB.

If you want to rip audio form a turntable then you need an additional device between turntable and ADI-2 Pro to perform the needed RIAA decoding, which the ADI-2 Pro/* does not perform.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

Sorry i was not clear enough, i was referring to the ADI-2 Pro
and i meant to connect my 'preamp out' to the 'analoge IN' on the adi-2 pro
the computer will be connected to the adi-2 pro by usb

the 'problem' i thought that would emerge is that i use that same usb port in two ways :
  - stream data FROM my computer (Qobuz) TO the adi-2 pro
and if i want to read the digital out from the adi-2 pro i would use that same usb to
  - stream data FROM the adi-2 pro TO my computer

and i though that might be a problem ? i understand usb is bi-directional but can the same usb port be used in that way ? I mean at one time send data from Qobuz and another time receive data from adi-2 Pro.

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

Hi Louis!

Pardon my ignorance, but what exactly is the purpose of streaming audio back to your Computer?    Nothing to see there.  The "State Overview" screen on the DAC  should tell you everything you need to know. 

Best!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

Hello Curt,

I would like to experiment to 'rip' vinyl, in other words to digitally record vinyl and then be able to play it back from my computer.
To be honest i also want to find out for myself if there is a audible difference between the analogue and digital reproduction.
And it seems nice to be able to EQ the phono signal !

Kind regards,
Louis
Project rpm9 - EAR834
Imac computer - Bluesound node2
Primaluna prologue 3 + 4 (el34) / Piega 701

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

Sending audio in and out at the same time via USB is the thing thats being done with recording interface in studios around the world on a daily basis. See the RME product pages and observe a few other products for recording .. what will you find there ?!
- MADIface Pro: supports 68 audio channels in/out via USB2
- Fireface UFX+:  supports 94 audio channels in/out via USB3/Thunderbolt
- MADIface XT: supports 196/198 audio channels in/out via USB3/external PCIe

There is absolutely no reason to worry about, whether an ADI-2 Pro is able to send and receive (only a few) audio channels simultaneously via USB2.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

That's what i wanted to hear, loud and clear
Thank you Ramses.

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

louis be wrote:

To be honest i also want to find out for myself if there is a audible difference between the analogue and digital reproduction.

Depends on how you ripped the data

1. Turntable - RIAA Preamp - ADI-2 Pro - Computer or
2. Turntable - HiFi Preamp with built-in Phono Preamp - ADI-2 Pro - Computer

In #1: you are using an additional / separate RIAA preamp
In #2; you use your HiFi Preamps phono input and analog output towards ADI-2 Pro
Theoretically there could be differences depending on "everything".
Circuit quality, level matching, bad soldered cable, different listening levels, imagination ...

Ok then you have your Vinyl digitized on the PC ... and now what ?

1st of all you need matching levels and a possibility to quickly change between music source
and best without knowing what is what ...

And which audio chain do you compare then ?
Turntable - HiFi Preamp's Phone input - HiFi Preamp analog out - HiFi Amplifier - Speakers
vs
A) Computer - ADI-2 Pro - HiFi Amplifier - Speakers ?
B) Computer - ADI-2 Pro - HiFi Preamp Analog In / Out - HiFi Amplifier - Speakers ?

I think you should compare against B) because then you have a more compareable signal chain including the HiFi Preamp.
But tbh .. I see no reason to make a science out of it, simply do a good digitalization, take a RIAA decoder which is known to work good and then the ADI-2 Pro will have enough different reference levels so that you will have a good matching level for recording the signal.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

Hi Ramses,
Thanks for pointing that out, i see that i can order the audio cables and the adi-2pro at Thomann and i found an usb cable at Oehlbach, I’m afraid the 5m is just a little short so i will have a go with 7,5m, if that doesn’t work well, i’ll stick to the solution you gave for a longer distance.

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

Louis,

Follow Ramses' connectivity advice, and you'll be fine!

As an old Vinyl afficianado, DO make sure that your Vinyl gear is set up well!  Ive heard many rips spoiled by a horribly mis-aligned Cartridge, etc.   Do it right, and you can archive your Vinyl to live forever!!

Best Wishes!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

louis be wrote:

usb cable from Oehlbach

Then you spend definitively more for the name than required, I saw prices close to €40, typical Oehlbach prices.

A digital USB cables does not have to be expensive, they should simply have good plugs.

If you need 7.5m you might be on the safer side with a good shielded cable.

A good USB 2 cable from Lindy would be fully sufficient, which is available in the price range of €20-27.

With Lindy premium cable I managed even 5m for USB3 to connect my UFX+.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

Hello again,
Meanwhile the ADI2Pro is hooked up like this :
Phono-RiaaPreamp-ADI2Pro-preamp-poweramp-speakers
The ADI2Pro also receives the streaming Qobuz data from computer by usb
And it sounds great, qobuz seems to have a bigger soundstage and i can tweak the ADI2Pro ‘analog in’ to improve the sound of poor recordings on vinyl.
But there is one thing i am missing : the ADI2Pro ADC-DAC conversion cannot be bypassed, meaning even for perfect recordings on vinyl i always have that double conversion in the signal path.
So my question : can i split the signal from RiaaPreamp to another ‘line in’ on the preamp (by using an y-connector and an rca cable) or do i have to switch that signal by an rca switch having one ’in’ and two ‘out’ ? (does that even exists ?)
Thanks for your reaction

20 (edited by KaiS 2020-05-07 23:03:33)

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

If you are using a HiFi preamp and want to fully preserve the analog path, the best way to connect ADI-2 Pro are the tape connectors.


ADI-2 Pro has In's and Out's like a tape machine (can even record if a computer/pad/smartphone is connected)

• All analog sources go to their dedicated preamp In's.
• Tape Rec Out goes to ADI-2 Pro's Analog In
•.ADI-2 Pro's Analog Out goes to preamps Tape (Monitor) In.
• All digital sources go to ADI-2 Pro's Digital In's.


• Now with the Preamp's Source Selector you select the analog sources, either to listen directly or -
• selecting Tape Monitor getting the ADI-2 Pro processed signal (ADI-2 Pro set to Analog In) or -
• with Tape Monitor and ADI-2 Pro set to one of the Digital In's listen to those.
• If you want, you can record any source through ADI-2 Pro without replugging.


Volume control is done by the preamp, maybe with IR remote, if exist for your preamp.

Tape Monitor On/Off engages or fully bypasses ADI-2 Pro.

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

Thank you for the response, that seems a very good solution however my ‘primaluna prologue three preamp’ does not have a tape loop, it has 4 x line in, 1x tape out and 2x line out, meaning i only have an input selector and no tape selector.
Any other possible solutions ?

22 (edited by KaiS 2020-05-08 12:54:43)

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

A variant of the above:

Get yourself a stereo A/B box.
This is just a mechanical switch that selects between two inputs A or B to one output, e.g.:

https://smile.amazon.de/Duttek-AV-Schal … 5551S6B11Q

https://smile.amazon.de/dp/B07VD97LB2/r … ljaz10cnVl

https://www.ebay.de/p/2255161280?iid=17 … pWEALw_wcB


Connect everything like above, except:

Preamp out goes to input A
ADI-2 Pro out goes to input B
A/B box output goes to power amp / speakers.

Now Volume control for the pure analog path is the Primaluna preamp.
Volume control for analog DSP'ed and all digital sources is handled by ADI-2 Pro.


The A/B box serves as source selector for the power amp.

This way the tube preamp can be left unpowered if you listen through ADI-2 Pro, it's source switching very likely still is usable for ADI-2's analog input.

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

Thanks again but now i’m in the dark, the idea was to bypass the ADI2Pro, now we are bypassing my preamp, aren’t we ?
I would like to be able to listen to my phono in two ways :
     one way by the ADI2Pro, to be able to ‘tweak’ the signal or to rip vinyl
     one way direct to the preamp to listen to the phono without the ADC-DAC conversion
Or am i missing something ?

24 (edited by KaiS 2020-05-08 15:42:18)

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

louis be wrote:

...  the idea was to bypass the ADI2Pro, now we are bypassing my preamp, aren’t we ?

That's true for the DSP-ed and digital sources.


If you want the tube preamp in the signal chain permanently, you should come back to a variant of your 1st idea.
Use the A/B box in reverse, as switchable Y-splitter for your phono RIAA preamp to feed the tube preamp and the ADI-2 Pro alternatively.


In theory you can even use a Y-splitter cable, but with ADI-2 Pro switched off there can be added distortions.
So you would need to switch ADI-2 Pro on, even if you don't need it.



An even more elegant way would be:
to use one of those comprehensive source selectors that where quite common during the golden age of HiFi, often available quite cheap on Ebay.
You could use multiple configurations, with and without preamp, just by swithing.
Something like this (AKAI DS-5):
https://www.springair.de/en/akai-ds-5-s … unit/47866


I, by myself, do use the dbx DAV 600 in my setup, a "can do everything" switcher.
I have lots of sources and destinations.

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

Aha, that’s nice to hear, so you think it is safe  to use a y-splitter on the signal coming from the riaa stage into an entry for the ADI2Pro and an entry for the preamp ? (That way i do not need space for an extra device with cables on)
I was afraid of that because the ADI2Pro comes parallel over the preamp entry and i thought that would give impedance problems. But if i can follow you, that would only be a problem with the ADI2Pro switched off ?

26 (edited by KaiS 2020-05-08 16:22:52)

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

louis be wrote:

... you think it is safe  to use a y-splitter on the signal coming from the riaa stage into an entry for the ADI2Pro and an entry for the preamp ?
...because the ADI2Pro comes parallel over the preamp entry and i thought that would give impedance problems. But if i can follow you, that would only be a problem with the ADI2Pro switched off ?

It's safe to use a Y-splitter for the RIAA phono preamp, nothing can break.

If that's the only analog source you want to send to both, ADI-2 Pro and preamp, it's a solution.


• Impedance is not an issue unless the RIAA phone amp isn't a tube unit.
Tubes like higher impedance / less load for best performance.
Solid state units don't care.

• Distortions could origin from a switched off ADI-2 Pro only, because various semi conductors in it's input stage would let signal pass through on higher parts of the audio waveform.

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

Just to be sure ... you say that :’Impedance is not an issue unless the RIAA phone amp is not a tube unit ‘ and this means that non tube amps are an issue, and then you say ‘Solid state units don’t care’, could you please give more info because my RIAA preamp is an EAR834 and that is a tube amp !

28 (edited by KaiS 2020-05-08 17:36:36)

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

Misunderstanding:
Tube amps are an issue, because usually they do not drive low impedances well.
Low impedance means lots of current, something that tubes are not good in.


I found the schematic of the EAR834, it's absolutely in this category:
12AX7 / ECC83 high gain lo current output tube, high impedance circuit.

ADI-2 Pro's unbalanced Analog In has an impedance of only 9kΩ (I just measured, as the manual is not 100% clear on this).


The (from it's specs) 100kΩ of your Primaluna preamp is much better suited to the EAR834.


So, at least, go with that A/B Box to split the signals.
This way ADI-2 Pro is not connected to the EAR834 in the pure analog tube path.


To stand up for ADI-2 Pro:
In a real Pro environment, like in the recording studio, a value of about 10kΩ is the usual input impedance all devices have.

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

And an A/B box it will be, thank you !

30 (edited by ramses 2020-05-08 18:45:21)

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

@KaiS + all:

An USB2 7.5m cable indeed doesn't work reliably. I got this for a test:
https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B07FMQ … &psc=1

It worked for only a few minutes and then only instability. No CRC but FIFO errors according to the MADIface driver.

I questioned myself why USB2 seems to be more stricts compared to USB3.

I have a theory after I found this information via google:

https://www.gearspace.com/board/showpos … ostcount=5
"For USB 2.0 or earlier, the maximum length of a standard cable is 5 metres (16.4 ft).[32] The primary reason for this limit is the maximum allowed round-trip delay of about 1.5 μs. If USB host commands are unanswered by the USB device within the allowed time, the host considers the command lost. When adding USB device response time, delays from the maximum number of hubs added to the delays from connecting cables, the maximum acceptable delay per cable amounts to 26 ns.[32] The USB 2.0 specification requires cable delay to be less than 5.2 ns per meter (192,000 km/s, which is close to the maximum achievable transmission speed for standard copper cable).[33] This allows for a five meter cable. The USB 3.0 standard does not directly specify a maximum cable length, requiring only that all cables meet an electrical specification. For copper wire cabling, some calculations have suggested a maximum length of perhaps 3 m."

So it seems to be very strict on timing ... maybe this is the case because USB2 is half-duplex transmission in contrast to USB3, where sender and receiver can transmit at the same time ...

This might explain, why you can use a 5m cable with USB3, where the standard tells 3m.

@Kai: Or do you have another idea after reading this Kai ?

BTW thanks Kai for your information and raising doubts that this most likely wouldn't run.
Also I question myself why Oehlbach (a HiFi / Multimedia Company) sells even 10m USB2 cables ...
Hopefully it works at least for pure data transfers ...

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

Interesting read!

Now we have a confirmatiion that, and an explanation why USB 2.0 passive 7.5m does not work, thanx Ramses.

But what about my 15m USB 2.0 with just one repeater in the middle?
There must be a trick, like negotiation of roundtrip delay or something else, because it does work here.
The active cable, BTW, is recognized by Windows as a "device", a hub if I remember correctly. This might make a difference.

Anyway - these active cables do cost the same (or less!) then quality passive ones, still not expensive, so I don't bother.

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

Now you got me worried ! I have done the ‘bit perfect’ test with the 7,5m usb and i get the same result as the test with 1m usb meaning that all test are ok except for the 32bit test (for all sample frequencies), that gives the indication that it is 24bit.
Does that mean the 7,5m usb is ok or do i need to do some other tests ?

33 (edited by ramses 2020-05-10 10:18:42)

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

Difficult to say why a 7.5m USB2 cable works for you.

1st of all you need to realize that the "Bit Perfect Test" is only a snapshot of "just right now".

When I started my tests with the 7.5m Lindy cable using the UFX+, then 1st it seemed to work as well,
but only on an IDLE system. As soon as I started other applications or browsing the internet (which did
not cause a high CPU load, but a few interrupts and I/O operations more), then I got USB transport errors.
In some cases so nasty, that it didn't recover and instant audio drops happened like "stop and go" and so on...

At this point I stopped my tests and didn't check with the ADI-2 Pro FS.
I can only assume that
- either it would have worked for the ADI-2 Pro FS like for you maybe due to fewer number of channels
- or it would have got same issues (by violating possibly tighter USB2 standards in terms of cable length)

I think its now your personal decision, whether you want to keep this setup, where you only know that transmission is bit perfect "as long as USB transport works reliably. But nobody can tell you whether this is a stable setup for long term operation.

Safer would be to build something according to standards, kind of "fire and forget" solution.
I think better follow KaiS recommendations.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

34 (edited by KaiS 2020-05-10 14:29:53)

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

RME's BitTest gives an unmistakeable results: Pass or Nothing.
Limited to the short measurement period it takes.

To enhance confidence repeat the test multiple times.
If each repeat out of a greater number results in "Pass" you should be OK.
As Ramses said, tax your system with heavy load in the background during BitTest enhances the validity of a - positive - result.


It's not a live or die situation if a data packet gets lost once in a while, in privat use.
Different to here, for a pro recording situation 100% stability is a must.

Bad USB connection is very obviously audible BTW.

7.5m passive cable is out of specs for USB 2.0, but might still work in your specific configuration.
Active cables aren't expensive, on the other hand.

But - by no means buy any expensive HiFi-voodoo cable.
Bits are bits, "0" and "1", running through silver or gold doesn't change a digital "1" into a better sounding  "1.1" smile

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

Thanks for the info, i did the test a dozen of times and every time it came out well, i also installed Digicheck and played a record and the ‘bit statistic and noise check’ also came out ok (just telling ... probably that is not a good indication...)
indeed it is strange that passive cables > 5m are sold by companies that should now of this length problem ...
And about that voodoo cable thing, i’m afraid i had to buy one of those because neither Lindy or other ‘cheaper’ versions were available to be delivered short time, but it works so all is fine !

36 (edited by ramses 2020-05-10 14:11:01)

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

The topic is even trickier, there seems to be a driver / device / chipset dependend component in it.

Tests: MusicBee Playback with RME MADIface driver 0.9700, ASIO Buffersize: 256, MMCSS: enabled

During audio playback in Firefox: loaded 100+ URLs in new tabs in batches of 10 with the aim
to create a heavy system load, in fact a mix of CPU, Memory, i/o, network-, interrupt load.
My Xeon E5-1650v3 CPU was sometimes loaded up to 80% by this.
I listened to the music and had the RME driver settings window up and running to observe USB Transport/CRC errors.

Energy Profile: Bitsum High Performance, Performance mode enganged

I tested the 7.5m cable now also with the ADI-2 Pro
- with the Sonnet Allegro Pro (old card with 4xFL1100 USB3 chipset): doesn't work at all, "stop and go"
- with the Intel C612 Chipset of my Supermicro X10SRi-F: works !!!

Same with the UFX+
- with the Sonnet Allegro Pro (old card with 4xFL1100 USB3 chipset): now it works
  Why now ? Maybe because I installed the FL own driver 3.8.35514 meanwhile.
  But this didn't help with the ADI-2 Pro, Win10 native and FL's own driver failed to work.
  This I mean with, there is a device dependend component ...
  The number of channels it can not be .. The UFX+ has 30 channels and works, the ADI-2 Pro only 2ch and doesnt work
- with the Intel C612 Chipset of my Supermicro X10SRi-F: works

All this testing has a lot of variables in it, it would be a nightmare to test all combinations.

But I think its obvious now, that in some cases you can have luck and in some cases it fails.

I think the best strategy is what KaiS suggests, to stick to standards as good as possible.
Because if something doesn't work you can at least be sure, its not a cable problematic, if you got a good cable with a length that fulfills the requirements of the USB standard.
Otherwise you would be forced to even put these tests again onto your agenda, which of course makes more work to iron out what it is. ... So playing it save should be simpler over all in terms of operation and reliability.

I personally learned from this
- thanks Microsoft for Windows 10 ... with Windows 7 I didn't have all these issues, the Sonnet card ran fabulous with its own FL driver ...
- maybe I will swap back to my initial setup and connect my UFX+ to the USB3 port of my mainboard (C612) Chipset
Then I will connect all the rest to the sonnet card.

Because ... since I moved to Win10 I have rare audio drops .. tha happen sometimes after 15 min .. sometimes after an hour, and up to now I didn't find out how to get rid of it ...

Thanks to this thread I got new ideas and maybe it solves my issues.

New strategy:

UFX+        -> connected again to USB3 port of chipset, 3m USB3 cable, Lindy
ADI-2 Pro -> connected again to USB2 port of chipset, 3m USB2 cable, Lindy

Sonnet Allegro Pro Card: am using the FL driver now instead of M$ Win10 native driver for
1: USB keyboard/mouse switcher
2: Startech external case for USB backup disk #1
3: Startech external case for USB backup disk #2
4: free

EDIT: got again a CRC error
So my theory that the C612 chipset would cure the issues goes nada nada to /dev/null....
Ok so thanks again to M$, I have no other idea... *sigh*

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

37 (edited by vinark 2020-05-10 14:14:54)

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

You can never be sure. I have external usb3 drive for backup. With A brand expensive 1m cable I only get usb2 speed. With 1m Chinese 1$ cable, full usb3 speed.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

38 (edited by ramses 2020-05-10 14:25:56)

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

I did several times before an upgrade installation to evaluate Win10.
Therefore I was very confident that it works when I finally moved from Win7 to 10.
After the move it was definitively the same cabling. With Win7 I had no issues, but now under the new Win10 I had of all sudden sometimes audio loss, small interruption of maybe 0,4 sec.

As Win7 is unsupported now I decided to stay on Win10.

An open topic is to perform a fresh installation of Win10 and test whether it works better.
But tbh .. up to now I didn't have the nerve for it.
Luckily I am in the position being able to delay it further, I do not have a commercial studio...

Other possibility, maybe its an issue of MusicBee (ASIO) under Win10 ...
With other applications like DAW (ASIO) or Youtube/Gaming (RME WDM driver) I didn't have this issue.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

ramses wrote:

Some more ideas ..

If your PC is not near your HiFi componens or if you want to separate PC / HiFi environment.

-  get an inexpensive RME USB interface with optical ports for the PC like the Digiface USB (€357)
-  use the ADI-2 DAC FS or ADI-2 Pro FS R BE in front of your HiFi

Between Digiface USB and ADI-2 Pro FS R BE use a TOSLINK cable of 10-15m length.
In a good case of luck 15 or even 20m work (maybe not up to 192 kHz).
For me it works fine between UFX+ (PC workplace) and ADI-2 FS R BE in front of a High-End HiFi with 15m TOSLINK cable
up to 15m. I use TOSLINK cable from Mutec which is fine to place along the walls ...

USB2 can be up to 5m, plus 10-20m TOSLINK cable makes 15-25m ... thats already a lot.

BTW in front of the ADI-2 Pro FS R BE you can even place a 4:1 TOSLINK switcher.
This allows you to switch between up to 4 digital sources, i.e.
- from PC
- from BluRay Player
- from TV

The ASCII schematics for this is:

PC ---USB--->DigifaceUSB+---ADAT/TOSLINK------>+
                                        +-- 3xADAT Reserve       |
                                                                              +4:1Switch---ADAT/TOSLINK--->ADI2ProFS---Analog/Balanced--->Poweramp
                                  BluRay---SPDIF/TOSLINK--->+
                                         TV---SPDIF/TOSLINK--->+
                     Reserve---ADATorSPDIF/TOSLINK--->+


Digiface USB                - €    357 - https://www.thomann.de/de/rme_digiface_usb.htm
ADI-2 Pro FS R BE        - €  1779 - https://www.thomann.de/de/rme_adi_2_pro … dition.htm
TOSLINK 4:1 Switcher - € 86,95 - https://www.lindy.de/4-Port-TosLink-Aud … p;pi=70416
TOSLINK Cable 10m    - € 15,90 - https://www.thomann.de/de/mutec_optisches_kabel_10m.htm

In regards to the quality of TOSLINK switchers, not all support 192 kHz like the Oehlbach Optosel 4:1 although they claim it.
For the Lindy one I don't know, they claim it .. maybe worth a try.
If you want a good looking one ... take the Oehlbach Optosel 4:1 (up to 96 kHz, not more, but its fully sufficient).


I recently implemented this suggestion with my system: MacBook Pro USB, RME Digiface USB/TOSLink, CD transport TOSLink, Monoprice opt switcher(does play 192khz),  TOSlink RME ADI-2 Dac,  xlr balanced to power amplifier.   Everything---hirez files and cd files-- play very well, 44khz up to 192khz.

I hear improved resolution for 24bit/96khz files...not much discernible sound improvement(I can hear) with 192khz.

WY

CD Transport>optical>RME ADI-2 DAC FS(AKM)>XLR balanced >GLM software>Genelec Monitors 8340A

Re: ADI-2 PRO vs ADI-2 dac

> Everything---hirez files and cd files-- play very well, 44khz up to 192khz.

Nice to hear, enjoy !

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13