Topic: more outs

Hello
I use the RME adi-2 Pro FS as a DA converter in my mastering studio, but I need more outputs.
That is to say, I would like to have four outs to work in my Mastering Chain, independently of the monitors output.
For me the most important thing is the DA converters, the quality of the audio, since we speak about Mastering.
What would you recommend?
In my computer I have a HDSPe RayDAT and from there I go out in AES to the RME adi-2 Pro FS
Thank you.
Carlos del Pino

2 (edited by KaiS 2020-12-18 18:13:27)

Re: more outs

If you want it no compromise looks like there's no way round the current version of the ADI-2 DAC or Pro.

ADI-2 FS (the one without the LCD) as alternative still excellent, but not with the very latest DAC chip.

Re: more outs

Which RME Unit has the same quality converters but with more outs?
Thanks

4 (edited by KaiS 2020-12-18 19:33:30)

Re: more outs

None, sorry!

Wouldn't an analog splitter 1 to 4 do the trick?
We do that all the time here in my studio.

Why buy 4 high class converters to feed them all with the same stereo signal?

Re: more outs

Because is not the same signal.

I want to go out as a multiband.

For example, I have the Leapwing Audio DynOne, a multiband compressor for mastering.
I want to go out with the 4 signals (maybe also as M/S). That´s why, and so can I go with the independent bands into my 4 channel tube/solid state mixer.
And I need an extra Stereo out to feed the speakers.
That´s why I´m looking for something with the same High Quality as the Adi Pro FS but with more outputs.
Thanks!

6 (edited by KaiS 2020-12-18 22:23:40)

Re: more outs

I'd go with the ADI-8 DS MK III:
https://www.rme-audio.de/adi-8-ds-mk-iii.html

ADI-8 DS MK III is only 4 dB below ADI-2 Pro's exceptional 124 dBA S/N ratio.
Far beyond what the connected devices can offer.
8 Channels give you some room to breathe if you have more ideas.
Level +24 dBu fits.

Re: more outs

Thank you very much.
And what about the quality of the DA AD conversor?
Same quality as the ADI 2 ProFs?
Thank you very much!
CArlos

Re: more outs

Are they for listening or re-recording?

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
HDSP9652+ADI-8AE  2X HDSP9632
Cubase pro10

Re: more outs

They are for my mastering chain.
That means, DA and then, after some analog process, AD.
Thanks!

Re: more outs

I think a big part is psychological, if you need the feel it is the best, get the best, for ease of mind. So 4 ADI2's in total.
If you are a little more realistic, the numbers for the ADI's are way better then any analogue device and a ufx2 or ADI8 would be fine too from a practical standpoint.
If you have a business impressing potential customers is a concern too.
In the end on paper there is nothing with the quality of the ADI2's but in reality the adi8's and ufx's are just as good.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
HDSP9652+ADI-8AE  2X HDSP9632
Cubase pro10

11 (edited by KaiS 2020-12-19 01:32:40)

Re: more outs

For your purpose 4 separate units are no choice.

With separate units phase synchronicity up to highest frequencies is not guaranteed, no matter what measures (like external master clock) you take.
The channels won't mix.

ADI-8 DS MK III is state of the art, a few dB difference here or there are no point in this range, superior to, or ahead of, e.g., your mixer.

In my experience RME house sound is:
There is no "sound", no coloration, just transparent precision.
This is true for every RME product I have, and that's a few.

Re: more outs

Hi there,

Of course, there is no psychological thing or better look, and as KaiS said, that could bring phase problems.

Thank you for your answers but I don't know if I explained myself well from the beginning, but I'll try again.

For me the most important thing is the converters.
The quality of converters in ADI 2 PRO FS is exceptional but it has only 2 out.
What other RME device provides at least the same quality of conversion but has more outputs?
..And I am not talking about + or less db's in the output.

RME M-1610 Pro has the same quality? Any member of the RME team here?
Greetings and thank you smile

13 (edited by ramses 2020-12-19 13:54:37)

Re: more outs

KaiS wrote:

I'd go with the ADI-8 DS MK III:
https://www.rme-audio.de/adi-8-ds-mk-iii.html

If you look at if from different angles, the ADI-8 DS MK III is a very good device and the sweetspot in terms of price/features.
And if you look at the technical specification, then the differences are not that big, quite close to ADI-2 Pro FS R BE.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/93xt00a95ktno … .xlsx?dl=1

Maybe also have a look at the different features of the products, some offer / have
- MADI / AVB option
- redundant power supply
- DB-25 and/or TRS plugs (so for some you need a patch bay, for some not)
- 19" rack form factor (ADI-2 Pro FS R BE and ADI-2 DAC have no rack mounts afair)
- per port selectable reference levels
- 4 or 3 different reference levels, some do not support +4 dBu, some do not support americal studio standards (+24 dBu)
- reference levels optimized for connection to HiFi devices (ADI-2 DAC FS)

IMHO it is not necessary for studio work to have selectable output filters on the DA chip (-> ADI-2 Pro/DAC).
"Nice to have", but maybe sufficient for the main monitor system and phones.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro20H2, Cub11Pro, UFX+ (v0.9734), XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

14 (edited by KaiS 2020-12-20 08:54:18)

Re: more outs

ADI-2 Pro and DAC, 2020 Edition, are the only ones that use the expensive AK4493-DAC-Chip.

The main difference to the one generation earlier chip is slightly improved S/N ratio and one extra DA-Filter, that is definitely NOT suited for professional use.


Th ADI-8 DS MK III has better conversion quality than the M-1610 Pro.
The M-1610's higher price results from it's larger feature set, that isn't needed for your purpose.

For your purpose a straight converter without Schnick-Schnack suites best, IMO.

Do you know about stacked converters?
If you have an 8-Ch device and only need 4 outs, you can stack two DAC's for each channel to further enhance resolution and S/N ratio.

15 (edited by vinark 2020-12-19 15:15:04)

Re: more outs

delpinator wrote:

Hi there,

Of course, there is no psychological thing or better look, and as KaiS said, that could bring phase problems.

Thank you for your answers but I don't know if I explained myself well from the beginning, but I'll try again.

For me the most important thing is the converters.
The quality of converters in ADI 2 PRO FS is exceptional but it has only 2 out.
What other RME device provides at least the same quality of conversion but has more outputs?
..And I am not talking about + or less db's in the output.

RME M-1610 Pro has the same quality? Any member of the RME team here?
Greetings and thank you smile

If you mean by quality, pure sound quality as it is audible , then all RME products are exceptional and designed with the same philosophy, 100% neutral sound quality. I have over 10 year old ADI8AE (a ds mk1) and it still sounds exceptional. If you mean which RME device with 8 outputs has the most modern DA converters, that is a question for RME. If you want exact same as ADI2 then the answer is none AFAIK.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
HDSP9652+ADI-8AE  2X HDSP9632
Cubase pro10

16

Re: more outs

Th ADI-8 DS MK III has better conversion quality than the M-1610 Pro.

Is that actually observed (tested) or is it an assumption? I'd agree at +4.2 dBu line levels since the M-1610 Pro does not offer a gain setting for that and you'd have to digitally adjust the gain by 9 dB. But the M-1610 Pro actually profited quite a bit from the ADI-2 Pro development, as can be seen in the distortion values.

But as everyone else here states, the devices all play in the same league and should be compared by connectivity, not by conversion quality.

Re: more outs

KaiS wrote:

Do you know about stacked converters?
If you have an 8-Ch device and only need 4 outs, you can stack two DAC's for each channel to further enhance resolution and S/N ratio.

Yes you could, but the chance that the device which you use to stack (sum) will cause more noise and distortion then you gain is rather big. I think it would have to be a device designed to do exactly this and this only.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
HDSP9652+ADI-8AE  2X HDSP9632
Cubase pro10

Re: more outs

Then, the conversion quality (DA & AD) in the ADI 2 PRO FS, M-1610 Pro y ADI-8DS MK III, is exactly the same??
I would be surprised if that were the case.
It is also the same as the M-32 DA Pro?

Thanks and best regards
Carlos del Pino

Max wrote:

Th ADI-8 DS MK III has better conversion quality than the M-1610 Pro.

Is that actually observed (tested) or is it an assumption? I'd agree at +4.2 dBu line levels since the M-1610 Pro does not offer a gain setting for that and you'd have to digitally adjust the gain by 9 dB. But the M-1610 Pro actually profited quite a bit from the ADI-2 Pro development, as can be seen in the distortion values.

But as everyone else here states, the devices all play in the same league and should be compared by connectivity, not by conversion quality.

19 (edited by KaiS 2020-12-21 13:26:41)

Re: more outs

vinark wrote:
KaiS wrote:

Do you know about stacked converters?
If you have an 8-Ch device and only need 4 outs, you can stack two DAC's for each channel to further enhance resolution and S/N ratio.

Yes you could, but the chance that the device which you use to stack (sum) will cause more noise and distortion then you gain is rather big. I think it would have to be a device designed to do exactly this and this only.

No, because there is no summing device, everything needed is already there.


It's a connection scheme, and there are two options:

The simple and most practical:
Connect 2 outputs in parallel. ADI-8's (e.g.) 100 Ohms output resistors care for proper summing and equalisation of tiny level differences.

Alternativ, works with 2 CH and balanced destinations only:
Use inphase (+) connector of DAC 1 and outphase (-) connector of DAC 2.


With both variants you gain 3 dB in S/N ratio.


It works, even with a higher CH count.
I'm using a 16 stack (for special purpuses) here, gives me (measured) 12dB better S/N and about 7 dB better THD.

Re: more outs

KaiS wrote:
vinark wrote:
KaiS wrote:

Do you know about stacked converters?
If you have an 8-Ch device and only need 4 outs, you can stack two DAC's for each channel to further enhance resolution and S/N ratio.

Yes you could, but the chance that the device which you use to stack (sum) will cause more noise and distortion then you gain is rather big. I think it would have to be a device designed to do exactly this and this only.

No, because there is no summing device, everything needed is already there.


It's a connection scheme, and there are two options:

The simple and most practical:
Connect 2 outputs in parallel. ADI-8's (e.g.) 100 Ohms output resistors care for proper summing and equalisation of tiny level differences.

Alternativ, works with 2 CH and balanced destinations only:
Use inphase (+) connector of DAC 1 and outphase (-) connector of DAC 2.


With both variants you gain 3 dB in S/N ratio.


It works, even with a higher CH count.
I'm using a 16 stack (for special purpuses) here, gives me (measured) 12dB better S/N and about 7 dB better THD.

Cool!

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
HDSP9652+ADI-8AE  2X HDSP9632
Cubase pro10

21 (edited by KaiS 2020-12-21 16:04:52)

Re: more outs

delpinator wrote:

Then, the conversion quality (DA & AD) in the ADI 2 PRO FS, M-1610 Pro y ADI-8DS MK III, is exactly the same??
I would be surprised if that were the case.
It is also the same as the M-32 DA Pro?

Thanks and best regards
Carlos del Pino

Max wrote:

Th ADI-8 DS MK III has better conversion quality than the M-1610 Pro.

Is that actually observed (tested) or is it an assumption? I'd agree at +4.2 dBu line levels since the M-1610 Pro does not offer a gain setting for that and you'd have to digitally adjust the gain by 9 dB. But the M-1610 Pro actually profited quite a bit from the ADI-2 Pro development, as can be seen in the distortion values.

But as everyone else here states, the devices all play in the same league and should be compared by connectivity, not by conversion quality.

Based on specs, ADI-8 DS Mk III is you best choice for more than 2 channels.
Specs are reliable with RME, opposed to other manufacturers.

Based on application I'd consider the same.
But that replicates what I already said.

I don't get what you are asking about 4.2 dBu level, best quality is only achievable with 0 dB = fullscale digital level.

Re: more outs

Hi
Thank you for your answers.

I´m not asking about 4.2 dBu level, that was someone else.

Still not satisfied, someone here can confirm that the conversion quality is exactly the same?
There is no one from the RME Team here?

Thank you.

Re: more outs

Only with the same chip and design the converter quality is exactly the same as in exact.
But the differences are also exact, like 2db more noise or 0.0003% more distortion. That is what converter quality is. Of course also including the analogue part. How exact are they. It is not magic. The ADI2 are not magically better. Just a few dbs and %.
What are you afraid to loose when a converter is 0.0006% less good?
What will you do if next year there is a converter that is again 0.0004% better?
ANd also 4 adi2's is a solution unless you do full bandwidth parallel processing. Then you might get phase issues, unles RME/MC says that 4 identical  ADI's locked to a raydat are 100% in sync. Could be, I just don't know that.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
HDSP9652+ADI-8AE  2X HDSP9632
Cubase pro10

24 (edited by KaiS 2020-12-23 19:13:40)

Re: more outs

delpinator wrote:

Hi
Thank you for your answers.

I´m not asking about 4.2 dBu level, that was someone else.

Still not satisfied, someone here can confirm that the conversion quality is exactly the same?
There is no one from the RME Team here?

Thank you.

What more could I say?

Technically every RME converter is slightly different, no two are the same.
Even ADI-2 Pro and ADI-2 DAC are different, not to mention the three generations of ADI-2 Pro.

Read and compare the specs, they are on the RME website.
I did it for you and reported back, in the postings above.


Practically the quality of all the mentioned RME devices here is on such a high level, that this quality doesn't survive your next step of processing.
Your bottleneck(s) are further down the signal chain.
An analog mixing bus, e.g., is per se a noisy thing, there's no way around that.


Have you ever thought about using a software mixer with hardware controller - the best of both worlds for the multiband processing step you intend.
I'm working this way.
Even Totalmix FX is an option for this, if your DAW doesn't support bussing.

Then use a single ADI-2 Pro to feed the analog chain.