Topic: Something Seems Wrong

Hey RME! Crossposting this question from head-fi for your consideration. Basically, it feels like I am missing all of the highs and lows from the ADI-2 DAC fs and want to know what I am doing wrong:

I finally picked up an ADI-2 DAC fs and honestly I must be missing something... Running from:
USB (Win10 WASAPI Roon playing Tidal) -> RME -> Balanced -> Cavalli Liquid Gold -> Balanced Ether Flow C 1.1

With the Liquid Gold, I can A/B test by running multiple inputs and switching input on the front. I am also running:
USB (Win10 ASIO Roon playing Tidal) -> Aune T1 Mk2 w/ Amprex Gold Pin NoS Cryo -> Single Ended -> Cavalli Liquid Gold -> Balanced Ether Flow C 1.1

When switching between the above two inputs, the Aune BLOWS the RME out of the water in all aspects. Its like the sound goes from completely veiled inside of my head on the RME to holographic 3d all around me using the Aune. I just can't bring myself to believe the soundstage of the RME is that tight and veiled? I am running RME at 16dB gain out (Vol is -3dB, Ref Level is +13 dBu, Balanced Output is +6dBu). Changing the volume/gain through fixed outputs on the RME doesn't seem to make a difference in the presentation.

RME has no EQ, no Bass/Treble tuning, no crossfeed set. Hoping y'all can point me in a direction as to what I am doing wrong?

2 (edited by joachim.herbert 2020-03-03 09:37:24)

Re: Something Seems Wrong

Level mismatch , most probably. But even then the difference should be not as dramatic as described.

Otherwise this may just be not your cup of tea.

3 (edited by KaiS 2020-03-03 10:25:14)

Re: Something Seems Wrong

1. Do you have ADI-2's Stereo/Mono option set to Mono maybe?

2. Does ADI-2's headphone out sound the same as Cavalli's?

3. If no, next step would be to switch inputs on the Cavalli, maybe the Balanced In sounds different.

4. You can run the RME Bit-Test to make sure ADI-2 fs gets an unchanged signal.


Similar steps apply to the Aune as far as applicable, specially make sure the Windows path is free of effects.


It might even be possible Aune changes the sound in the way you described.
A clean feed RME ADI-2 fs, with it's DSPs disabled, at least does not change the signal in any way.
ADI-2 can serve as reference for neutral sound.

Re: Something Seems Wrong

TexMachina wrote:

Hey RME! Crossposting this question from head-fi for your consideration. Basically, it feels like I am missing all of the highs and lows from the ADI-2 DAC fs and want to know what I am doing wrong:

I finally picked up an ADI-2 DAC fs and honestly I must be missing something... Running from:
USB (Win10 WASAPI Roon playing Tidal) -> RME -> Balanced -> Cavalli Liquid Gold -> Balanced Ether Flow C 1.1

With the Liquid Gold, I can A/B test by running multiple inputs and switching input on the front. I am also running:
USB (Win10 ASIO Roon playing Tidal) -> Aune T1 Mk2 w/ Amprex Gold Pin NoS Cryo -> Single Ended -> Cavalli Liquid Gold -> Balanced Ether Flow C 1.1

When switching between the above two inputs, the Aune BLOWS the RME out of the water in all aspects. Its like the sound goes from completely veiled inside of my head on the RME to holographic 3d all around me using the Aune. I just can't bring myself to believe the soundstage of the RME is that tight and veiled? I am running RME at 16dB gain out (Vol is -3dB, Ref Level is +13 dBu, Balanced Output is +6dBu). Changing the volume/gain through fixed outputs on the RME doesn't seem to make a difference in the presentation.

RME has no EQ, no Bass/Treble tuning, no crossfeed set. Hoping y'all can point me in a direction as to what I am doing wrong?

I should have suggested running your headphones directly out of the RME even though you have to do it using an SE cable.

This can either verify or disprove the RME is not performing as we all expect and have experienced.

5 (edited by ramses 2020-03-03 13:36:28)

Re: Something Seems Wrong

Your mileage may vary but allow general side comment: staging two phones preamps makes no sense (to me).

I think the best strategy is to avoid too many analog circuits in the signal path.
I think its better to send audio signals digitally as far as you can, so that audio stays "bit perfect"
up to the last device in the chain, where you finally perform the D/A conversion in best quality.

Normally the ADI-2 DAC would be the last device in such a chain.
And being able to perform Bit perfect tests up to this device is I think also a major win.

If you would have wanted balanced phones connection then I would have proposed you to get
the ADI-2 Pro FS R BE (with the new DAC chip and the remote control), which allows you to connect
phones balanced directly.

And .. correct me if I should be wrong ... AFAIR PEQ and dynamic loudness of an ADI-2 Pro FS R BE
could also be used when looping digital audio through it: i.e. ADAT/SPDIF IN -> ADI-2 Pro * -> ADAT/SPDIF out.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

6 (edited by user42 2020-03-03 16:29:54)

Re: Something Seems Wrong

I have RME DAC since about half a year and yes its soundstage is thinnest I ever heard.
It is only on speakers line, no 10 cm more or less. That I reallyy dislike.

Soundwise it is very very polite. If you have agressive speakers it is quiet a good pairing (which I checked with my friend setups) also great for studio monitors, but I have only laid back speakers like few pairs of Harbeth and some others and there basically every other DAC sounds more engaging.

You could ofc play with EQ, but you will mess it up anyway, so if this DAC doesn't cut it for you, sell it and move along.
I'm only keeping it if I have at the time too forward playing HPs/speakers to tame them.

7 (edited by ramses 2020-03-03 17:38:32)

Re: Something Seems Wrong

user42 wrote:

I have RME DAC since about half a year and yes its soundstage is thinnest I ever heard.
It is only on speakers line, no 10 cm more or less. That I reallyy dislike.

Soundwise it is very very polite. If you have agressive speakers it is quiet a good pairing (which I checked with my friend setups) also great for studio monitors, but I have only laid back speakers like few pairs of Harbeth and some others and there basically every other DAC sounds more engaging.

You could ofc play with EQ, but you will mess it up anyway, so if this DAC doesn't cut it for you, sell it and move along.
I'm only keeping it if I have at the time too forward playing HPs/speakers to tame them.

I used ADI-2 Pro (old version, non-FS), ADI-2 DAC (old version), ADI-2 Pro FS R BE new version.
My signal chain: TV / BluRay/ PC (UFX+) -> TOSLINK 4:1 Switcher -> ADI-2 "*" -> Accuphase E-600 Class-A -> B&W 803 D3.

I compared the ADI-2 * side by side with the built-in Accuphase DAC-40 card (the Class-A amp has two module slots and you can feed it with DAC or phono expansion cards).

For all ADI's differences to the internal Accuphase DAC-40 module inside of the amp were extremely small and hard to hear.
Sometimes it appeared to me the internal DAC-40 sounded like the ADI-2 in NOS mode.

IF there would be such an effect, that the soundstage is thing with the ADI, then you can be sure that I would hear this.
Actually the opposite is the case in my setup, as I am having a really deep and wide soundstage.

The music completely detaches itself from the speakers and I have the illusion of another room in my room.
The stage can be very deep and also very wide depending on how the mix is.
In streamed movies sometimes a car or whatevery moves authentic from right to left through the stereo panorama.
With right I mean even ~1.5, more to the right as the speaker actually is located. So the panorama is really huge.
Its really astonishing and believe me, such a setup makes much fun.

This experience is completely the opposite to what you are telling.
It looks to me that there is something wrong with your setup, but not with the ADI.

EDIT: same positive experience with phones output.
All ADI play very well with i.e. Audeze Planar phones like i.e. LCD-X and for my ears even better with LCD-3 (Alcantara version).

I do not want to convince you or other of anything here ... so please no struggle.
But what you told sounds to me very wrong and doesn't match my experience.
Therefore I wanted to share with you my personal experiences, not more, not less.

EDIT: maybe Curt has an idea where he had similar situations, like missing depth. Maybe it has also to do with the position of the speaker. But its rather unlikely that its the DACs fault. Or you would claim, that Accuphase also build very poor DAC products, maybe wink

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Something Seems Wrong

ramses wrote:
user42 wrote:

I have RME DAC since about half a year and yes its soundstage is thinnest I ever heard.
It is only on speakers line, no 10 cm more or less. That I reallyy dislike.

Soundwise it is very very polite. If you have agressive speakers it is quiet a good pairing (which I checked with my friend setups) also great for studio monitors, but I have only laid back speakers like few pairs of Harbeth and some others and there basically every other DAC sounds more engaging.

You could ofc play with EQ, but you will mess it up anyway, so if this DAC doesn't cut it for you, sell it and move along.
I'm only keeping it if I have at the time too forward playing HPs/speakers to tame them.

I used ADI-2 Pro (old version, non-FS), ADI-2 DAC (old version), ADI-2 Pro FS R BE new version.
My signal chain: TV / BluRay/ PC (UFX+) -> TOSLINK 4:1 Switcher -> ADI-2 "*" -> Accuphase E-600 Class-A -> B&W 803 D3.

I compared the ADI-2 * side by side with the built-in Accuphase DAC-40 card (the Class-A amp has two module slots and you can feed it with DAC or phono expansion cards).

For all ADI's differences to the internal Accuphase DAC-40 module inside of the amp were extremely small and hard to hear.
Sometimes it appeared to me the internal DAC-40 sounded like the ADI-2 in NOS mode.

IF there would be such an effect, that the soundstage is thing with the ADI, then you can be sure that I would hear this.
Actually the opposite is the case in my setup, as I am having a really deep and wide soundstage.

The music completely detaches itself from the speakers and I have the illusion of another room in my room.
The stage can be very deep and also very wide depending on how the mix is.
In streamed movies sometimes a car or whatevery moves authentic from right to left through the stereo panorama.
With right I mean even ~1.5, more to the right as the speaker actually is located. So the panorama is really huge.
Its really astonishing and believe me, such a setup makes much fun.

This experience is completely the opposite to what you are telling.
It looks to me that there is something wrong with your setup, but not with the ADI.

EDIT: same positive experience with phones output.
All ADI play very well with i.e. Audeze Planar phones like i.e. LCD-X and for my ears even better with LCD-3 (Alcantara version).

I do not want to convince you or other of anything here ... so please no struggle.
But what you told sounds to me very wrong and doesn't match my experience.
Therefore I wanted to share with you my personal experiences, not more, not less.

EDIT: maybe Curt has an idea where he had similar situations, like missing depth. Maybe it has also to do with the position of the speaker. But its rather unlikely that its the DACs fault. Or you would claim, that Accuphase also build very poor DAC products, maybe wink

Stereo panorama works just fine. Like I said on speaker line everything is happening (so: up, down, left, right),
but as OP stated 3D effect is non existing and I'm def confirming that is how ADI 2 DAC FS playing.
Maybe I am just spoiled in DAC department - RME is the cheapest DAC I'm using and in your case you went
from basically integrated to RME. Try Rockna or multibit from Schiit, they have huge stages.
And I also have 5-digit speakers in my main setup, although I wouldn't take B&W even for half of their price.

Re: Something Seems Wrong

I told you also about depth, please re-read, many thanks for your cooperation.

I prefer to trust my own ears and experience and RME as a renowned manufacturer of professional studio equipment.

RME customers know and appreciate the precise, transparent, non-coloring sound of RME equipment, adding nothing to the audio signal that wasn't there before.

If the sound of the other devices is really that different, then I would think about it a bit if I were you. For me, the thoughts went in a different direction than ragging on RME products.

I don't understand your motivation either. First posting in the forum and just complaining, not only about RME, but also about my equipment. This doesn't sound like a well-founded opinion or a valuable contribution that wants to help other users in any way.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Something Seems Wrong

I came here to see if there is any firmware update, seen his post and wanted just tell him that he is not crazy.
I am not raging about RME products, otherwise would just sell it long time ago and never look back.

Re: Something Seems Wrong

Ok then we had maybe a misunderstanding, enjoy your equipment.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

12 (edited by Curt962 2020-03-04 01:46:40)

Re: Something Seems Wrong

User,

Lot's of Friction it seems in your FIRST FOUR (4) Posts. 

Perhaps good for me to remind you that in this Forum, you are in RME's House...not an Open Forum.   Here, We as users, and those Audio Professionals in the mix as well, take Pride in helping to provide a useful technical information resource for RME users.   To that end, we generally look down upon the promotion of "Boutique" devices that allege to compete with the RMEs.    They can never prove it, so we happily, and steadfastly remain focused right here.   It's RME's House remember!   Stray DACs are not welcome.

Keep in mind, if you're unhappy with this group, the Exit Door is open for you.

Auf Wiedersehen!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Something Seems Wrong

Hello All, thanks for all of the replies. I am not here to cause an argument for or against the RME ADI-2 DAC, I simply do not believe mine is functioning correctly because I am literally loosing complete instruments when using it on both ends of the audio spectrum. For example, highs like trumpets just don't exist when running through the RME and I want to get as much as I can out of it to evaluate it. I've had many DAC's in my life, and I've never heard anything like this in terms of the massive difference.

Perhaps another idea, is there cheap or free software y'all recommend that I can use to visualize the sound coming out of both DAC's and post here? Based on what I am hearing, it should be painfully obvious.

Re: Something Seems Wrong

Better still Partner...get out your User Manual, and review how your device works.  The RME does not lose instruments unless your Set Ups are horribly borked.    It's really easy to start pushing buttons by mistake.   We've all done it friend. smile

Get that Book Out.

Best,

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

15 (edited by TexMachina 2020-03-04 03:50:39)

Re: Something Seems Wrong

I'm literally running on a full factory reset! Also, I am an engineer by trade and have read most of the manual already. Loved it, was quite impressed by the stories behind the logic throughout. smile

Re: Something Seems Wrong

I'm an idiot, figured it out... it was the width! Factory Reset sets it at 0.00 which appears to me Mono... even though there is a Mono setting. Sounding much better now, thanks all!!

Now for some real listening time... big_smile

Re: Something Seems Wrong

Congrats Tex!

We knew you'd figure it out!   Enjoy!!!!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

18

Re: Something Seems Wrong

Factory Reset sets the Width to 1.00, otherwise all units shipping (which are factory reset after testing and before packing them in the box) would have this wrong setting. Please check again.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Something Seems Wrong

MC wrote:

Factory Reset sets the Width to 1.00, otherwise all units shipping (which are factory reset after testing and before packing them in the box) would have this wrong setting. Please check again.

I hear ya, and agree that makes the most sense; but on the unit I have that wasn't the case! I picked it up from another who'd bought it a month or so ago. When first receiving it, I updated the firmware to make sure I was on the latest and then did a full factory reset. I definitely wouldn't have changed the width. I can try a full reset again when I get a chance and report back if it reverts to 0 again.

Thanks MC!

20 (edited by N00b 2020-03-04 11:46:44)

Re: Something Seems Wrong

It's nice to see this issue resolved!
And for those who look for holographic 3D sound or huge stereo stage, it seems you must choose products with poor SINAD measurements and a lot of distorsion... big_smile
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … -dac.2319/
https://www.audiosciencereview.com/foru … dacs.5487/

ADI-2 DAC (with stock PSU) - Neumann KH 310 A monitors - Cheap USB and XLR cables

Re: Something Seems Wrong

LOL @Noob wink

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: Something Seems Wrong

I have the adi2 pro (Be edition) .Can someone please help me with confirming if using the device balanced headphone out should always sound mono? My settings: mono-to the left,  width-1.0, balance-0, balanced headphone-on

23 (edited by KaiS 2021-03-24 17:54:16)

Re: Something Seems Wrong

emmanuelpalmer24 wrote:

I have the adi2 pro (Be edition) .Can someone please help me with confirming if using the device balanced headphone out should always sound mono? My settings: mono-to the left,  width-1.0, balance-0, balanced headphone-on

Switch OFF Mono “to Left”
“Mono” should be “Off” for stereo, isn’t that obvious?


For balanced headphones mode:

• Setup / Options / Phones / Bal Phones Mode: “ON”.

• You need a special balanced headphones cable, refer to manual page 43 for the configuration.
Both headphones outputs in combined use with 2 TRS (Tip Ring Sleeve) plugs (NOT TS!) form a single (stereo) balanced phones out.
PH 3/4 carries the left, PH 1/2 the right channel.

Balanced headphones does NOT work with a normal unbalanced headphones cable, never, nowhere.


Sidenote:
In my experience you don’t gain any sound improvement with balanced phones on the ADI-2, except for extremly “hard to drive” headphones.
Even AKG’s K-1000 (74 dB / mW 120 Ohms) can happily be driven unbalanced and with an extra (power consuming) sub bass boost.
ADI-2’s headphones outputs are very powerfull in unbalanced mode too.

Re: Something Seems Wrong

Hi i want to use the balanced connection cause that's the only long cable I have and am using it with a trs plug wich was specifically designed to be used with my previous device mytek dac+ and worked perfectly with it. I have tried mono off but the sound that comes from it sounds off i.e only instrumens with no voices and bass. Is there something else am missing?

Re: Something Seems Wrong

And you are sure not playing a karaoke CD ?

I would do a total reset in Totalmix,
then reset everything possible in the settings and inside the device, set it to auto-mode.
Special design cable sounds to me just as a top source for problems.
Plug the headphone into the headphone socket directly for test.

M1-Sonoma, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

26

Re: Something Seems Wrong

@waedi: recommending a TotalMix reset for a unit that does not have TotalMix is not helpful...

@emanuelpalmer24: I have the impression that you would get much quicker and more efficient help by calling our support and going with them through your setup and settings. Note: Mytek uses the same Balanced cabling that we require ( 2 x TRS - you wrote one TRS plug. That can't be).

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Something Seems Wrong

MC wrote:

@waedi: recommending a TotalMix reset for a unit that does not have TotalMix is not helpful...

@emanuelpalmer24: I have the impression that you would get much quicker and more efficient help by calling our support and going with them through your setup and settings. Note: Mytek uses the same Balanced cabling that we require ( 2 x TRS - you wrote one TRS plug. That can't be).

my mistake i mean 2x trs plug as recommended

28

Re: Something Seems Wrong

Then go into the Phones menu and make sure ALL entries in there are set to ON. The only exception is Toggle Ph/Line set to OFF.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

29 (edited by KaiS 2021-03-25 18:33:45)

Re: Something Seems Wrong

emmanuelpalmer24 wrote:

I have tried mono off but the sound that comes from it sounds off i.e only instrumens with no voices and bass. Is there something else am missing?

This is a clear hint that “Bal Phones Mode” is not activated.
You hear the difference of left and right channel, which leaves out everything that is centered in the mix.

Go to:
• Setup / Options / Phones / Bal Phones Mode: “ON”,
to activate balanced phones mode.