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RME User Forum → ADI-2 & 2/4 Pro series, ADI-2 DAC series → Output levels (again)
Hi to all and a happy New Year!!
New to these forums.
A question: is there a volume/gain setting of the device that it is supposed to have the best dynamic range performance regardless of the device that it will be connected?
Thank you!!!
0dB if this doesn't lead to distortion on the receiving input because of too high level.
RME devices support up to 4 different reference levels on analog inputs and outputs to better adapt to connencted devices and to be compliant with the usual studio standards as well as consumer levels.
... is there a volume/gain setting of the device that it is supposed to have the best dynamic range performance regardless of the device that it will be connected?
Look here for a practical advice how to achieve best performance:
Thank you both for answering.
I have seen the above thread.
Practically I am using method 1.
My preamps (Densen DM20) sensitivity is 280mV witch if I’m not wrong makes the amp quite sensitive.
This is confirmed by the fact that with every line level source I have used I never got to turn the volume above 12 o’clock and this very few times while listening very loud.
So I thought to try the ADI-2 in +1dBu reference level @0dB volume, and it seems that it’s working quite well with DM20, even the output of the DAC at this setting is quite lower than the typical 2V.
I just wanted to confirm that in this setting (0dB/+1dBu) the DAC works the same way as 0dB/+7dBu (or +13dBu).
I just wanted to confirm that in this setting (0dB/+1dBu) the DAC works the same way as 0dB/+7dBu (or +13dBu).
It does.
For the lowest, -5 dBu, there is a little noise penalty that doesn’t present a practical problem.
Dynamic range is still above human hearing’s capabilities.
The sound quality, DAC’s THD and resolution stays the same for all reference level settings.
If you don’t hear any noise, there is no noise problem!
Thank you all once more for answering!
Setting steady reference level +7dBu and using the dac directly to the power amp, using the volume of course, has any (theoretical) technical disadvantages vs using the auto mode?
Also if the volume is used does the signal remain bit perfect?
(This might be in the manual but I missed it....)
“Bit Perfect“ doesn’t mean too much in context with ADI-2’s internal level/processing.
The internal calculations are done with a much higher bit depth than the in/out signals, and partly with oversampling (EQ).
Depending on the ADI-2 generation “Bit Perfect” might be achieved at either 0 dB or +2.5 dB volume.
But again - measurements have shown there is no THD penalty when using the volume dial, and THD is the most important quality measure for a DAC.
Noise is a non-issue if you are beyond 110 dB S/N ratio.
Your theoretical quality bottleneck is the post analog volume-control part of your Preamp.
It has so much gain that it reduces the THD+noise to 0.02%, compared to ADI-2’s 0.00016%.
There is nothing you can do about that except skipping the preamp completely and using ADI-2 as a replacement, connected directly to the power amp.
Then switching on “Auto Reference Level” is mandatory.
Still: if you do not hear any noise you do not have a noise problem.
“Bit Perfect“ doesn’t mean too much in context with ADI-2’s internal level/processing.
The internal calculations are done with a much higher bit depth than the in/out signals, and partly with oversampling (EQ).Depending on the ADI-2 generation “Bit Perfect” might be achieved at either 0 dB or +2.5 dB volume.
But again - measurements have shown there is no THD penalty when using the volume dial, and THD is the most important quality measure for a DAC.
Noise is a non-issue if you are beyond 110 dB S/N ratio.Your theoretical quality bottleneck is the post analog volume-control part of your Preamp.
It has so much the gain that it reduces the THD+noise to 0.02%, compared to ADI-2’s 0.00016%.There is nothing you can do about that except skipping the preamp completely and using ADI-2 as a replacement, connected directly to the power amp.
Then switching on “Auto Reference Level” is mandatory.Still: if you do not hear any noise you do not have a noise problem.
Thank you!
I’m trying directly to the power amp that’s why I’m asking all the above.
If I use a stable +7dBu ref level and the volume control what is the disadvantage vs the Auto mode?
I hear no noise in both cases...
I am asking because in most of my listening when using Auto Ref Level the level remains at -5dBu and at -18dB of volume it changes to +1dBu but it’s in the uncomfortably loud territory. If I use steady +7dBu (Auto ref level off) I can go up to -14dB volume or so depending of the music playing before getting too loud. Isn’t it strange?
The volume figures change from dB to dBr when Auto Reference Level is on.
The dbr relates to maximum achievable level with highest Reference Level then.
This is explained in the link I gave you.
The volume figures change from dB to dBr when Auto Reference Level is on.
The dbr relates to maximum achievable level with highest Reference level then.This is explained in the link I gave you.
Ow... this I missed for sure.
Going back to the thread!
Thanks!!
It wasn’t there, I added it now.
I did explain that in several other threads.
....Depending on the ADI-2 generation “Bit Perfect” might be achieved at either 0 dB or +2.5 dB volume....
How do we determine generation?
You mean fs/non fs? 4490/4493?
And in what gen is it 0dB or +2.5?
(I understood the full answer you gave but just for the knowledge)
Also (I hope I won't bother you any more after this):
What do I "loose" with the Auto Ref Level: Off / +1(or +7)dBu / volume from ADI-2 / Directly to power amp without passive attenuators?
Thank you!!!! 
KaiS wrote:....Depending on the ADI-2 generation “Bit Perfect” might be achieved at either 0 dB or +2.5 dB volume....
How do we determine generation?
You mean fs/non fs? 4490/4493?
And in what gen is it 0dB or +2.5?
(I understood the full answer you gave but just for the knowledge)
There are at least 3 versions of ADI-2 DAC and 3 versions of ADI-2 Pro.
With and without “FS”, and finally with a newer AKM 4493 DAC chip.
Matthias might give details on differences and might explain the “+2.5 dB volume as full scale”-situation.
What do I "loose" with the Auto Ref Level: Off / +1(or +7)dBu / volume from ADI-2 / Directly to power amp without passive attenuators?
Up to 18 dB of extra dynamic range, that’s what the Auto Reference Level switching offers.
This switching happens AFTER DAC Chip, in the analog domain, thus keeping the DAC Chip on a higher level even if you dial down volume.
The passive attenuators are necessary to adapt the level to your listening behaviors, if your power amp does not have input level control.
Else you will likely stay on the lowest reference level most of the time and do not benefit from the automatic switching.
DomieMic65 wrote:KaiS wrote:....Depending on the ADI-2 generation “Bit Perfect” might be achieved at either 0 dB or +2.5 dB volume....
How do we determine generation?
You mean fs/non fs? 4490/4493?
And in what gen is it 0dB or +2.5?
(I understood the full answer you gave but just for the knowledge)There are at least 3 versions of ADI-2 DAC and 3 versions of ADI-2 Pro.
With and without “FS”, and finally with a newer AKM 4493 DAC chip.Matthias might give details on differences and might explain the “+2.5 dB volume as full scale”-situation.
DomieMic65 wrote:What do I "loose" with the Auto Ref Level: Off / +1(or +7)dBu / volume from ADI-2 / Directly to power amp without passive attenuators?
Up to 18 dB of extra dynamic range, that’s what the Auto Reference Level switching offers.
This switching happens AFTER DAC Chip, in the analog domain, thus keeping the DAC Chip on a higher level even if you dial down volume.
The passive attenuators are necessary to adapt the level to your listening behaviors, if your power amp does not have input level control.
Else you will likely stay on the lowest reference level most of the time and do not benefit from the automatic switching.
Should i open a new thread for Matthias to answer?
My power amp has no attenuators... without them I barely pass the -18dBr and it's already almost too loud!
Would you suggest 10, 15 or 20dB attenuators? Given that the ADI-2 goes up to +6dbr I suppose 20dB?
Thank you very much!!!
There are at least 3 versions of ADI-2 DAC and 3 versions of ADI-2 Pro.
With and without “FS”, and finally with a newer AKM 4493 DAC chip.Matthias might give details on differences and might explain the “+2.5 dB volume as full scale”-situation.
I don't think there was a non FS DAC version, only 2 models if I remember right (the one with the 4490 chip and the one with the 4493, both FS). The DAC was released after the Pro and was FS since the beginning.
And DAC or Pro, the +2.5 dB feature is due to the 4493 DAC chip.
Should i open a new thread for Matthias to answer?
My power amp has no attenuators... without them I barely pass the -18dBr and it's already almost too loud!
Would you suggest 10, 15 or 20dB attenuators? Given that the ADI-2 goes up to +6dbr I suppose 20dB?Thank you very much!!!
I would take the -15 dB one; you will have headroom for low level tunes.
Or you can take a variable attenuator, like the JTS MA-123 (-10, -20 and -30 dB settings).
Should i open a new thread for Matthias to answer?
My power amp has no attenuators... without them I barely pass the -18dBr and it's already almost too loud!
Would you suggest 10, 15 or 20dB attenuators? Given that the ADI-2 goes up to +6dbr I suppose 20dB?Thank you very much!!!
Matthias reads along here, but only chimes in when he thinks it’s necessary
If your normal listening level is close to -18 dBr an external attenuator is obsolete.
If you want to try one I’d either go with Noob and buy a variable attenuator, or take the -10 dB.
You need some range to dial up occasionally.
The volume range from +2.5 to +6 dB is extra, positive digital gain that leads to distortions with full-scale sources, like most commercial productions are.
It’s meant to be used with weak sources that don’t hit 0 dBFS.
...Or you can take a variable attenuator, like the JTS MA-123 (-10, -20 and -30 dB settings).
Thank you!!
I need unbalanced attenuators...
I need unbalanced attenuators...
Matthias reads along here, but only chimes in when he thinks it’s necessary
If your normal listening level is close to -18 dBr an external attenuator is obsolete.
If you want to try one I’d either go with Noob and buy a variable attenuator, or take the -10 dB.
You need some range to dial up occasionally.The volume range from +2.5 to +6 dB is extra, positive digital gain that leads to distortions with full-scale sources, like most commercial productions are.
It’s meant to be used with weak sources that don’t hit 0 dBFS.
Thank you very much for replying!!
-18dBr is the loudest I can get! So I need an attenuator I suppose! Still 10db?
The goal with the attenuator is for the loudest listening the DAC to be at most 0dBr? .. and for sure not more than +2dBr. Yes?
-18dBr is the loudest I can get! So I need an attenuator I suppose! Still 10db?
The goal with the attenuator is for the loudest listening the DAC to be at most 0dBr? .. and for sure not more than +2dBr. Yes?
Get the variable attenuator, you’re more flexible and will find out.
The goal is to approximate -18 dBr for the “normal” listening level.
-18 dBr is the lowest setting where the DAC chip reaches it’s optimum dynamic range, with Auto Reference Level = ON.
From there you have 18(+2.5 with the latest ADI-2 version) dB reserve to dial up for weaker sources and temporary higher loudness demands.
It’s not worth to worry about some dBs more or less, the audible quality (expressed as THD) stays the same over a wider level range of the DAC chip.
This fact, BTW, is quite uncommon!
It can’t be stressed enough: noise is a non-issue anyway!
If your power amp is quiet enough you will never hear any noise that isn’t part of the music recorded.
Once you settled for a “normal” volume level value you can setup and explore the “Loudness”-function.
Set it’s “Low Vol Reference” 20dB below this “normal” Volume’s dBr value.
It can greatly improve the listening pleasure if you happen to listen quietly.
You can already do this now, no need to wait for the attenuator.
Hi Domie!
The "Loudness" (ref: Dynamic Loudness) functionality of your RME of which KaiS speaks, is a wonderful capability, which applies a volume setting dependent EQ to the Signal. This EQ is applied in a Volume Dependent manner so as to allow the output to better conform to the Non-Linear function of the Human Hearing Mechanism. As Volume decreases, so does our Ear's acuity. The User Manual describes this system's function in detail. Read it!
The Benefit of Dynamic Loudness to the RME user, is that OUR Sound remains Tonally Balanced at reduced listening levels. No more "Thin, Wimpy Sound" at Quiet Time. We hear Full-Range Sound...just less loud.
Here's a Wiki to better describe the Phenomena.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour
Enjoy your new RME!
Curt
Hi Domie!
The "Loudness" (ref: Dynamic Loudness) functionality of your RME of which KaiS speaks, is a wonderful capability, which applies a volume setting dependent EQ to the Signal. This EQ is applied in a Volume Dependent manner so as to allow the output to better conform to the Non-Linear function of the Human Hearing Mechanism. As Volume decreases, so does our Ear's acuity. The User Manual describes this system's function in detail. Read it!
The Benefit of Dynamic Loudness to the RME user, is that OUR Sound remains Tonally Balanced at reduced listening levels. No more "Thin, Wimpy Sound" at Quiet Time. We hear Full-Range Sound...just less loud.
Here's a Wiki to better describe the Phenomena.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour
Enjoy your new RME!
Curt
Thank you very much for replying Curt!
I have already used the loudness feature without yet changing the any settings and I must admit that I was amazed. Even more so because I consider myself to be a “purist” audiophile. 
I remember back in the day of my musicology studies the “Fletcher-Munson curves” giving us some hard time... 
Michael
Get the variable attenuator, you’re more flexible and will find out.
The goal is to approximate -18 dBr for the “normal” listening level.
-18 dBr is the lowest setting where the DAC chip reaches it’s optimum dynamic range, with Auto Reference Level = ON.
From there you have 18(+2.5 with the latest ADI-2 version) dB reserve to dial up for weaker sources and temporary higher loudness demands.It’s not worth to worry about some dBs more or less, the audible quality (expressed as THD) stays the same over a wider level range of the DAC chip.
This fact, BTW, is quite uncommon!It can’t be stressed enough: noise is a non-issue anyway!
If your power amp is quiet enough you will never hear any noise that isn’t part of the music recorded.Once you settled for a “normal” volume level value you can setup and explore the “Loudness”-function.
Set it’s “Low Vol Reference” 20dB below this “normal” Volume’s dBr value.
It can greatly improve the listening pleasure if you happen to listen quietly.You can already do this now, no need to wait for the attenuator.
In deed the loudness is a killer feature...
I read in the reviews of these attenuators mentioned above somehow too many negative reviews about their QC.
Also I wouldn't like to have those switches in line! (The audiophile/fool speaks now )
I have borrowed from a DIY friend a passive attenuator that uses just a blue Alps potentiometer just to check.
As it seems having the Alps potentiometer in 12 o'clock -or ever so slightly above- gives a headroom so that I can go up to 0dBr for the loudest listening I will ever do for very limited time of course.
Does this make any sense about the level of the attenuator I need? I am thinking of getting the Rothwells.
Thanks a lot once more...
Quality wise the real - not counterfeit - Alps RK27 pots are quite good.
Not as good as Penny&Giles, but good.
I never measured their THD figures, maybe I should.
Not an easy task, potentiometer distortions are neither consistent with multiple specimen nor constant over the travel.
Fixed resistors, or switched resistors are better, if you ask the audiofool.
No THD at all.
Go with the Rothwell -10dB if your current “normal” level (without att.) is somewhere around -28 dBr.
Use -20 dB attenuators if the “normal” is closer to -38 dBr.
And don’t believe the negative reviews about the sound.
“The louder the better” – if you come from this the attenuators have lost before going into the race.
Michael,
Indeed, as KaiS says, it's good to dismiss with the Audio Worries! A set of Pads at about -10db are probably just what the Doctor ordered. I like Variable Pads (switched), and my Vol is at -10 (+/-) depending on program material. Thing is...I forgot about the Pads (attenuators) I don't hear them...so they don't exist.
Further, MC (RME) has stated repeatedly in this Forum that 0db is NOT a requirement! He designed the RME. He knows.
Some typical Vol toward the higher end of the Vol Range is perfectly acceptable. For the sake of continuity in this discussion, lets say: -18db or above. Put yourself there, and be happy!
Enjoy!!
Curt
I have borrowed from a DIY friend a passive attenuator that uses just a blue Alps potentiometer just to check.
As it seems having the Alps potentiometer in 12 o'clock -or ever so slightly above- gives a headroom so that I can go up to 0dBr for the loudest listening I will ever do for very limited time of course.
Does this make any sense about the level of the attenuator I need?
12 o’clock equals about -16 dB with Alps RK27 “A”-type potentiometers.
You tell you’re slightly above.
So -10 dB attenuators would be the better fit.
Thank you both once more!!!
Without attenuation -38dBr is quite low but -28dBr it’s high(ish) .... so I suppose I must go to -15 or -20dB attenuators!
@KaiS for sure louder -as it is meant from some people- is not better!
Thank you both once more!!!
Without attenuation -38dBr is quite low but -28dBr it’s high(ish) .... so I suppose I must go to -15 or -20dB attenuators!
@KaiS for sure louder -as it is meant from some people- is not better!
-15 dB might be “perfect fit”, but hard to get.
For your friend:
Pre: 8.2 kOhms, with 1.8 kOhms to ground gives -15 dB attenuation and a total of 10 kOhms load to ADI-2.
Let your friend build those with fixed resistors – or get the switchables mentioned.
If you buy from Amazon or the like and catch a lemon, send them back for replacement until you get working ones.
A switch either works, works shaky or not at all.
A working switch does not compromise soundquality.
Easy to determine, if the switch breaks contact on light touch, send back for replacement.
DomieMic65 wrote:Thank you both once more!!!
Without attenuation -38dBr is quite low but -28dBr it’s high(ish) .... so I suppose I must go to -15 or -20dB attenuators!
@KaiS for sure louder -as it is meant from some people- is not better!
-15 dB might be “perfect fit”, but hard to get.
For your friend:
Pre: 8.2 kOhms, with 1.8 kOhms to ground gives -15 dB attenuation and a total of 10 kOhms load to ADI-2.Let your friend build those with fixed resistors – or get the switchables mentioned.
If you buy from Amazon or the like and catch a lemon, send them back for replacement until you get working ones.
A switch either works, works shaky or not at all.
A working switch does not compromise soundquality.
Easy to determine, if the switch breaks contact on light touch, send back for replacement.
The Rothwells come to -15dB too.
I will ask my friend for sure... may be this is the better option, quality wise!
Thank you... I really appreciate it!!!
If you asked me to do it and I know it’s available in good quality for $40, I’d say go for the $40
If you asked me to do it and I know it’s available in good quality for $40, I’d say go for the $40
Yes I see your point!!!
Thank you both once more!!!
Without attenuation -38dBr is quite low but -28dBr it’s high(ish) .... so I suppose I must go to -15 or -20dB attenuators!
@KaiS for sure louder -as it is meant from some people- is not better!
Michael,
Just to add some of my brand of Color to this aspect of Audio...
Louder IS better to the typical Music Consumer. This is due to the typically low-quality environment in which they "Consume" said Music.
Ear Buds on a noisy City Street. Automobile at 70mph. Noisy Restaurant.
I have tested this theory in a live situation (restaurant) and the "consumer" much prefers heavily compressed Music that never varies.
Full Dynamic Range yields nothing but complaints in such a setting. Either they cant hear it, or it suddenly becomes too loud.
This kind of puts us Audiophile types in a pinch. Sitting in our Acoustically Treated spaces...
Oh well. I just had to say. Us Audio Geeks are outnumbered by those who really dont care. Sad I know. 
Curt
Thank you both once more!!!
Without attenuation -38dBr is quite low but -28dBr it’s high(ish) .... so I suppose I must go to -15 or -20dB attenuators!
@KaiS for sure louder -as it is meant from some people- is not better!
Michael,
Just to add some of my brand of Color to this aspect of Audio...
Louder IS better to the typical Music Consumer. This is due to the typically low-quality environment in which they "Consume" said Music.
Ear Buds on a noisy City Street. Automobile at 70mph. Noisy Restaurant.
I have tested this theory in a live situation (restaurant) and the "consumer" much prefers heavily compressed Music that never varies.
Full Dynamic Range yields nothing but complaints in such a setting. Either they cant hear it, or it suddenly becomes too loud. Note that LIVE Music gets a break. Therein lies a Visual element that entertains the otherwise vacant mind. 
This kind of puts us Audiophile types in a pinch. Sitting in our Acoustically Treated spaces...
Oh well. I just had to say. Us Audio Geeks are outnumbered by those who really dont care. Sad I know.
Hmm.. Perhaps "MQA" should be re-stated as "MCA" . (Mastered for Car Audio)
Not into it.
Curt
I agree Curt...
I think the so called "loudness wars" led to generally degraded sound in many (the most) cases.
On the other hand unfortunately the situation in the modern world is such, that sometimes this heavily compressed material is inevitable. In restaurants or streets as you said the background noise is too much for quality sound not to mention the crap equipment used in most places.
Ok we audiophiles are for sure outnumbered but "still there", I want to think of it
The think is that not so many younger people come in to the hobby (or shall I say "need"). And even more they do not recognize the "good" sound I am starting to think.
I was never interested in MQA and never will be. I don't have a car you know..
I think the so called "loudness wars" led to generally degraded sound in many (the most) cases.
On the other hand unfortunately the situation in the modern world is such, that sometimes this heavily compressed material is inevitable. In restaurants or streets as you said the background noise is too much for quality sound not to mention the crap equipment used in most places.
There is a world of a difference between compressed for musical reasons, and distorted, to squeeze out the last few dB of loudness, which is what happens lately to most popular music releases.
If I had delivered such distorted masters in former times my clients had all rights to accuse me of bad workmanship.
Today bad workmanship is standard.
I’m especially sorry about the so called “remasters” that appear more and more in streaming as only option, replacing quality and dynamics with boosted bass, treble and level.
.... I’m especially sorry about the so called “remasters” that appear more and more in streaming as only option, replacing quality and dynamics with boosted bass, treble and level.
So very true... it’s very sad that the original albums are no more available.
The greater example of what you say in my experience is the “Famous blue raincoat” by J. Warnes.
The humble “normal” cd I happen to have finally sounds so much more pleasing (albeit much much low in general volume) than the later super-duper “gold” etc... remaster.
I mention it because it’s May be the lowest in volume cd I have... but listening in the “correct” volume level is great.
One of the lowest average level, and as a result highest dynamic range (Pop-) CD’s I own is EARTH WIND & FIRE Raise.
The (un-denoted) remaster that is published in streaming is ca. 10 dB louder and still sounds good and fun to listen, but – what a BANG of dynamics in the original first CD release!
I don’t know when that was changed, might even have been long before today, on subsequent CD releases?!
However, the by far best E. W. & Fire album in every measure:
Great songs, singers, players, arrangements and what a genius production!
This is one of the few CD’s where having amplifier headroom / power really makes sense to reproduce the peaks without clipping.
Indeed,
That E.W.F. album is a classic. "Let's Groove" is such a cool track...because I simply dig some serious Vocoder!! Maybe the best Vocal effect ever. Right next to Aphex! (Almost)
Quite an interesting story behind the Vocoder. Once a Military Voice Encryption System, later to somehow find itself in a 1970s Funk Recording...and it kept going.
With re-masters...I'm uncertain. It's difficult to re-create the Tension, Suspense, and Release of some of the fine older recordings. (ie: Dire Straits-Love over Gold)...AND be screaming loud, but...
Mastering Genius Robert Ludwig actually re-mastered his own original handiwork to satisfy Warner Bros. It's louder, but the dynamics are still (subjectively) there.
No surprise. Anything Ludwig touches earns an instant Grammy Award for Technical Excellence. (Check out Ludwig's Handiwork with the DEVO catalog! Wow!!!)
There's a few, very enjoyable remasters out there. Bing Crosby's "Christmas Classics" is amazing, and vastly improved over it's 1962 origins...with a nice added track!!
That said... There's also a few MORE audio disasters as well. Recordings where "Victor Volume" was twisting the knobs, and things got ugly.
It's fun to just listen, and then decide. I am convinced now however that DR by itself is a poor metric upon which to choose a recording.
PS: Michael, so that I don't seem contradictory on the DR matter...
We've been discussing Attenuators as a means of Optimally Gain-Staging your system. This is done so that our playback chain is not the source of increased noise, or distortion. If it exists in the recording, so be it. We here simply choose not to invite any more to the party. Makes sense.
Happy RME'ing all!
Curt
@KaiS & @Curt962 .. I like very much how this conversation is going on... from technicalities to music!!!
Of course the “correct” technicalities lead to better music pleasure..
Found the E.W.F album on streaming... it’s a great production for sure but not exactly my cup of tea music wise.. sorry guys!
I will check R. Ludwig too! Even though it will be again from streaming so not exactly the same as it seems.
From this conversation I understood how important is the “Gain-staging” as you say Curt.
I didn’t think for one minute that I would prefer my system without the preamplifier in line. Can’t wait for the attenuators to arrive so that I can take off the potentiometer from the chain.
(As I never thought that “loudness” will be a think for me too.. )
Hey Michael,
Let me help simplify your Ludwig search somewhat...
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Ludwig
This Man puts the "Fi" in Hi-Fi!!!
Enjoy!
Curt
PS: You might find this Database to be of interest!
http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list? … amp;album=
(I goofed up the link. Search any artist you choose. Have Fun!)
Hi to all after quite some time!
If you are bored to read upwards the situation of my setup was left in waiting for -15dB rca attenuators to arrive from Rothwell audio. They took ages and the came the day that Rothwell audio were ready to send me a new pair.
Then I started testing and seeing what I preferred.
I tried ADI-2 fs directly to my power amp with attenuators.
I tried to the preamp with attenuators and locked volume.
And may be more combinations that I don’t remember and I had decided to remove the pre amp and play directly to the pwr amp the Auto Ref on and volume from the DAC.
Well until yesterday that I tried the pre once more to see how it will sound after quite some time not in use and I also a new configuration.
Dac: auto ref level on, volume control - attenuators - pre-amp vol.100% - pwr amp.
Well it’s the setup I will definitely stick for some time. OK I might loose a tad of transparency but the sound is fuller and with deeper and a bit wider soundstage.
OK those audiophile terms may have no place in this forum but this is what experience right now.
The search never ends...
Thanks to all for your great help in making me know my new DAC.
The next step i would like very much to achieve sometime is a pair of active speakers but it will take me some time since I will be able to afford it. I have a sympathy for ATCs but I am open for other suggestions too.
All the best to all!!
Michael,
Welcome Back!
Quite a delay it seems in obtaining your Attenuators. Wow! Well, You have them now. All's well that ends well.
Get yourself connected up, and we'll pick up where we left off in the days of yore.
Tip: Install your Attenuators right at the Amplifier input (not at the RME output) It seems it shouldn't matter, but it can, and does. This ain't Audiophile BS either.
Travel time now for me, but we'll see you here real soon.
Best!
Curt
Michael,
Welcome Back!
Quite a delay it seems in obtaining your Attenuators. Wow! Well, You have them now. All's well that ends well.
Get yourself connected up, and we'll pick up where we left off in the days of yore.
Tip: Install your Attenuators right at the Amplifier input (not at the RME output) It seems it shouldn't matter, but it can, and does. This ain't Audiophile BS either.
Travel time now for me, but we'll see you here real soon.
Best!
Curt
Thanks Curt!
Yes of course the attenuators are on the (pre)amp side!
They didn't came now... I have them for a few weeks! Anyway they took more than a month to arrive!
Enjoy your travel and take care!!
Regards!
Hi Again Michael.
Sounds good! Proceed!
Regarding your Wish for Active Loudspeakers? Well, many of us here would agree, Actives are exciting! That day will come, but don't let a dream overshadow the Joys possible with the gear you already have! Much is possible.
My experiences over years suggest that NOTHING degrades Sound faster than does wishing for something new.
So now, I gotta say it...
Turn on your gear, and Enjoy!!
Curt
Michael!
I''ve been re-positioned for a week! Where'd you go?
Get those Pads plugged in, and let's Go
As always.. Regards!
Curt
Hey hi there!
Somehow I missed your last two posts!
Sorry!
Finally I removed the pre amp again and I use the ADI directly to the power amp.
A final (I hope ) question:
Theoretically, the best performance of the DAC -regarging DR or anything else- comes with the Volume at 0db (or may be +2.5) and Auto Ref. Level at +13dBu?
I made an interesting observation playing with attenuators [-15dB, so I can go even to 0dBr if music permits it, or even +2.5 rarelly] directly to the power amp, with variable volume of course and Auto Ref. Level ON. When going to -6db territory where the ARL changes to +13dBu seems that the music gets more vivid, more three dimensional and with better micro details. Not that in the lower ARL it is not but with the above levels is gets gains something more ... ok the observations are subjective.
Does this have any technical explanation?
Thank you!!!
I made an interesting observation playing with attenuators [-15dB, so I can go even to 0dBr if music permits it, or even +2.5 rarelly] directly to the power amp, with variable volume of course and Auto Ref. Level ON. When going to -6db territory where the ARL changes to +13dBu seems that the music gets more vivid, more three dimensional and with better micro details. Not that in the lower ARL it is not but with the above levels is gets gains something more ... ok the observations are subjective.
Does this have any technical explanation?Thank you!!!
As the listening level is probably lower, the speakers (and your ears!) work more linear, more precise.
Usually there is an SPL loudness “sweet spot” giving maximum perceived transparency.
Unfortunately this level is above what’s healthy for continuous listening.
And watch out, the switching between reference levels works with mechanical relays that produce a momentary click, that may be misinterpreted as sound change.
I fell into this trap once, thinking the reference levels produce different sound.
Michael,
Indeed, it seems like you're doing well, and getting things dialed in nicely. Good Work!
The "Click" effect of which KaiS speaks has been observed in other, un-related listening tests where panels of Trained Listeners were hoodwinked by the mere Click of a Switch.
The "Click" was merely a Ruse, yet the Panel heard astonishing differences. I would loved to have heard the descriptive adjectives...
(This is the Basis for much of the B.S. you might have seen in Subjective Audio Reviews) but enough of that...
It seems like it's time for you to Queue up some Music and?
(Drum Roll...)
Enjoy!!
Best!
Curt
DomieMic65 wrote:I made an interesting observation playing with attenuators [-15dB, so I can go even to 0dBr if music permits it, or even +2.5 rarelly] directly to the power amp, with variable volume of course and Auto Ref. Level ON. When going to -6db territory where the ARL changes to +13dBu seems that the music gets more vivid, more three dimensional and with better micro details. Not that in the lower ARL it is not but with the above levels is gets gains something more ... ok the observations are subjective.
Does this have any technical explanation?Thank you!!!
As the listening level is probably lower, the speakers (and your ears!) work more linear, more precise.
Usually there is an SPL loudness “sweet spot” giving maximum perceived transparency.
Unfortunately this level is above what’s healthy for continuous listening.And watch out, the switching between reference levels works with mechanical relays that produce a momentary click, that may be misinterpreted as sound change.
I fell into this trap once, thinking the reference levels produce different sound.
KaiS.....Would there be any actual technical advantage to, with auto ref level ON, having the gain setting on my amplifier such that the ADI-2 DAC operates at normal listening levels (depends on the recordings) in, say, a range of 0 to -8 db vs. an amp gain setting where the range of normal listening volumes on the ADI-2 DAC is from -12 to -20 db?
I have some variable attenuators (-10, -20, -30) so I can play with various combinations of amp gain, attenuator settings, and ADI-2 dac volume settings.
KaiS wrote:DomieMic65 wrote:I made an interesting observation playing with attenuators [-15dB, so I can go even to 0dBr if music permits it, or even +2.5 rarelly] directly to the power amp, with variable volume of course and Auto Ref. Level ON. When going to -6db territory where the ARL changes to +13dBu seems that the music gets more vivid, more three dimensional and with better micro details. Not that in the lower ARL it is not but with the above levels is gets gains something more ... ok the observations are subjective.
Does this have any technical explanation?Thank you!!!
As the listening level is probably lower, the speakers (and your ears!) work more linear, more precise.
Usually there is an SPL loudness “sweet spot” giving maximum perceived transparency.
Unfortunately this level is above what’s healthy for continuous listening.And watch out, the switching between reference levels works with mechanical relays that produce a momentary click, that may be misinterpreted as sound change.
I fell into this trap once, thinking the reference levels produce different sound.KaiS.....Would there be any actual technical advantage to, with auto ref level ON, having the gain setting on my amplifier such that the ADI-2 DAC operates at normal listening levels (depends on the recordings) in, say, a range of 0 to -8 db vs. an amp gain setting where the range of normal listening volumes on the ADI-2 DAC is from -12 to -20 db?
I have some variable attenuators (-10, -20, -30) so I can play with various combinations of amp gain, attenuator settings, and ADI-2 dac volume settings.
With Auto Reference Level “On” ADI-2 DAC’s volume range between -21 to +2,5 dbr has the same technical quality / dynamic range, within ±3 dB.
This is what Auto Reference Level is made for, get the maximum out of the DAC chip even when using “Digital Volume Control” - which in fact is a clever combination of digital control and analog switching.
Let me just point to my setup guide again:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 21#p161721
Perfect if you already have the passive attenuators to fit your poweramp’s sensitivity!
RME User Forum → ADI-2 & 2/4 Pro series, ADI-2 DAC series → Output levels (again)
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