Topic: Loudness, B/T question

Is Loudness on overrides B/T setting?

for e.g. if Loudness set a 8dB both, and B/T at 6dB both, When Loudness triggered, it will be 8 or 6dB?

Second question, Remap key EQ+B/T+Ld function, what will be the values when on?
============

Or just simple, the higher value takes over?

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: Loudness, B/T question

Johannes,

Are you using "Locked Volume"?
It seemed an earlier post of yours suggested you were.  If this were the case, then your Dynamic Loudness function is disabled, and no longer part of the equation.   Should it be that you are NOT using Locked Volume, then it needs to be remembered that Dynamic Loudness boosts are not fixed.  Boosts are MAX at your chosen Low Vol. Ref, and decrease over a 20db range as Volume is increased. 

As to "Who" takes priority?   Well...consider that your Enormous B/T boosts (set on Encoders 1 and 2) stay regardless.  Dynamic Loudness boosts on the other hand, take care of themselves, and again, go away as Vol. listening level is increased. 

Let's be sure we're not interchanging B/T settings with Dynamic Loudness settings. 

Make any sense?

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

3 (edited by ning 2021-07-30 20:25:16)

Re: Loudness, B/T question

> Is Loudness on overrides B/T setting?
No. they are added together

> for e.g. if Loudness set a 8dB both, and B/T at 6dB both, When Loudness triggered, it will be 8 or 6dB?

14db gain for bass and treble when volume is low enough.  (not a precise calculation though, as b/t may have different quality factor and frequency value)

technically speaking, loudness and b/t are shelf filters, and are identical to EQ's shelf filter.
the unique thing of the loudness feature is it is a shelf filter whose gain is depended on your volume attenuation.


> Second question, Remap key EQ+B/T+Ld function, what will be the values when on?

All those filters added together.

EQ, B/T, and LD are all second order IIR filters. one filter can be applied after another.
So combining filters is not a problem --- just like how the 5 eq bands are applied

If you are interested in math and dsp programming https://www.ti.com/lit/an/spra867/spra867.pdf is a good read.
This should be very similar to how ADI-2 DSP system is implemented.
adding more filters in the chain is quite trivial.

4 (edited by Johannes AU 2021-07-30 20:22:27)

Re: Loudness, B/T question

>>Are you using "Locked Volume"?

Yes, but only at Line Out, +13 dBu and Volume to -4.5 dBr LOCKED, Auto Pref ON


>>It seemed an earlier post of yours suggested you were.  If this were the case, then your Dynamic Loudness function is disabled, and no longer part of the equation.   Should it be that you are NOT using Locked Volume, then it needs to be remembered that Dynamic Loudness boosts are not fixed.  Boosts are MAX at your chosen Low Vol. Ref, and decrease over a 20db range as Volume is increased.

I forgot to mention, the questions are for IEM and phones.

>>As to "Who" takes priority?   Well...consider that your Enormous B/T boosts (set on Encoders 1 and 2) stay regardless.  Dynamic Loudness boosts on the other hand, take care of themselves, and again, go away as Vol. listening level is increased. 

So the Loudless boosts kick in at the preset -"x"db value, right? And is it constant? You mentioned dynamic, means the lower the volume turn down, the boost gets more?

>>Let's be sure we're not interchanging B/T settings with Dynamic Loudness settings. 
Make any sense?

Is that mean the Loudness boost will add on top of the B/T values?


=========
I am ADAT user before, since when I became expert?   I AM NOT !!

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

5 (edited by Johannes AU 2021-07-30 20:29:40)

Re: Loudness, B/T question

Curt, I did read the graph at Manual position "31.6 Loudness"

the example is set at  Low Vol Ref -20dB, then when below -20dB, the curves dbr is the dynamic boost you mean? the lower the volume the curves became deeper at the middle?

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: Loudness, B/T question

> So the Loudless boosts kick in at the preset -"x"db value, right? And is it constant? You mentioned dynamic, means the lower the volume turn down, the boost gets more?


read manual  sec 31.6 Loudness
if you are interested in implementation detail see https://github.com/HEnquist/camilladsp#loudness

7 (edited by ning 2021-07-30 20:37:04)

Re: Loudness, B/T question

> the example is set at  Low Vol Ref -20dB, then when below -20dB, the curves dbr is the dynamic boost you mean? the lower the volume the curves became deeper at the middle?

if you set the ref to -20, then the filter perform the exact same way (that is, having the same gain) when volume is <=-20.

Re: Loudness, B/T question

ning wrote:

> So the Loudless boosts kick in at the preset -"x"db value, right? And is it constant? You mentioned dynamic, means the lower the volume turn down, the boost gets more?


read manual  sec 31.6 Loudness
if you are interested in implementation detail see https://github.com/HEnquist/camilladsp#loudness


Thanks ning, your chart is much easier to understand, now I got it !!!
:-)

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

9 (edited by Curt962 2021-07-30 20:49:54)

Re: Loudness, B/T question

This is getting hard to read.

*With Locked Volume:  Auto-Ref is disabled.  It cannot possibly function with locked vol.

*Loudness boosts don't "Kick in" 
They gradually "Begin" at a point that is 20db above your chosen Low.Vol. Ref. (See manual for functional details)

*Dynamic means they are not Fixed Values.  You are correct.

Do the Loudness and B/T Values add"?    I'm not completely certain, but we don't have unlimited headroom with which to endlessly pile boost upon boost.   12db I believe is the limit.   

*My Question:  Why the enormous B/T boosts? 6db is a bunch!   Somethin's not right there Johannes.  Maybe your IEMs aren't fit properly?   Subs out of Phase?  I'm losing track.

*Travel Day tomorrow, so I'll be unerkannt much of the day.

We'll catch up soon

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Loudness, B/T question

Curt,

>>*With Locked Volume:  Auto-Ref is disabled.  It cannot possibly function with locked vol.

At my DAC, Line Out, I can Lock volume, with Auto-ref ON .....

>>*My Question:  Why the enormous B/T boosts? 6db is a bunch!   Somethin's not right there Johannes.  Maybe your IEMs aren't fit properly?   Subs out of Phase?  I'm losing track.

I asked this way with values, doesn't mean I did it in real, I will not hurt my ears and wasted the true sound from RME :-)

>>*Loudness boosts don't "Kick in"
They gradually "Begin" at a point that is 20db above your chosen Low.Vol. Ref. (See manual for functional details)

ning highlighted with the chart he provided, which is better, easier for me to understand, you know, as I wrote at the signature, I am dumb ... :-P

>>*Travel Day tomorrow, so I'll be unerkannt much of the day.

Enjoy your weekend, my friend.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

11 (edited by Johannes AU 2021-07-30 21:11:12)

Re: Loudness, B/T question

Curt962 wrote:

*With Locked Volume:  Auto-Ref is disabled.  It cannot possibly function with locked vol.


At the Volume screen it shows:

Volume Line Out
+13dBu (Auto)-Locked
-4.5dBr
Hor. meter bar
VOL  LOCK   SP o  44.1

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: Loudness, B/T question

Johannes,

One more thought, and One thing at a time,  Please Review the User Manual section on Dynamic Loudness carefully. 

This function is not a bunch of arbitrarily chosen "boosts", but rather a calculated means of addressing the Ear's diminishing acuity at lower listening levels, as proven by the Research of Fletcher and Munson. 

The settings are changeable, but I wish to discourage that.  The default values are just fine, and I encourage you to leave them as-is.  Low-Vol ref is all you should be changing.  How?

What is your "typical" listening level?   Let's say -10?

Hmmm. The Book said to set it at 20db below your normal listening level.  So...

Easy!  Set Low Vol. Ref to -30 and leave it! 

I want you to have fun, but pace yourself.  wink

Enjoy!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Loudness, B/T question

Johannes AU wrote:
Curt962 wrote:

*With Locked Volume:  Auto-Ref is disabled.  It cannot possibly function with locked vol.


At the Volume screen it shows:

Volume Line Out
+13dBu (Auto)-Locked
-4.5dBr
Hor. meter bar
VOL  LOCK   SP o  44.1

*It's Locked.   

Auto-Ref cannot function.

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Loudness, B/T question

Curt962 wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:
Curt962 wrote:

*With Locked Volume:  Auto-Ref is disabled.  It cannot possibly function with locked vol.


At the Volume screen it shows:

Volume Line Out
+13dBu (Auto)-Locked
-4.5dBr
Hor. meter bar
VOL  LOCK   SP o  44.1

*It's Locked.   

Auto-Ref cannot function.

I don't know .... it just shown like this, and I did check the setting page, I can change Auto-pre on or off .....

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: Loudness, B/T question

Curt962 wrote:

Johannes,

One more thought, and One thing at a time,  Please Review the User Manual section on Dynamic Loudness carefully. 

This function is not a bunch of arbitrarily chosen "boosts", but rather a calculated means of addressing the Ear's diminishing acuity at lower listening levels, as proven by the Research of Fletcher and Munson. 

The settings are changeable, but I wish to discourage that.  The default values are just fine, and I encourage you to leave them as-is.  Low-Vol ref is all you should be changing.  How?

What is your "typical" listening level?   Let's say -10?

Hmmm. The Book said to set it at 20db below your normal listening level.  So...

Easy!  Set Low Vol. Ref to -30 and leave it! 

I want you to have fun, but pace yourself.  wink

Enjoy!

Curt

The User Guide is V2.7 for ESS chip, I don't know if something changed, MC can confirm that if he read our posts ....

Yes, IEM, I listen around -10. If I plug a headphone with a 3.5mm TRS, will be a bit more, say -5 to 0, depends ....

Loudness setting I will stay at default, and test by changing it bit by bit to experience it.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: Loudness, B/T question

Yes!

Let's keep Line-Out, and IEM discussions separate.

If you're varying between -10> -5 on Volume with IEMs, then a Low Vol. Ref for Loudness somewhere around -25 (+/-) would be fine.

For Line-Out which you've locked, then none if this has any relevance, as Dynamic Loudness is inhibited.

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Loudness, B/T question

Johannes AU wrote:

Curt,

Enjoy your weekend, my friend.

It's not all Rainbows my friend...I'm going back to work far away for a few weeks.

It's all good!   We'll be in Touch I'm certain.

Best Regards!

Curt

Vintage 2018 ADI-2 DAC. "Classic AKM4490 Edition"
Cables:  Red, and White Ones.
Speakers:  Yes

Re: Loudness, B/T question

Curt962 wrote:

Yes!

Let's keep Line-Out, and IEM discussions separate.

If you're varying between -10> -5 on Volume with IEMs, then a Low Vol. Ref for Loudness somewhere around -25 (+/-) would be fine.

For Line-Out which you've locked, then none if this has any relevance, as Dynamic Loudness is inhibited.

Curt

Curt, it is all my fault at the beginning, either the topic should say "in general" or I ask specific about phones and IEM. and my earlier post about lock volume misleaded you, but it means you read and remember what I asked before :-)

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

19 (edited by Johannes AU 2021-07-31 04:20:00)

Re: Loudness, B/T question

OK, let me express what I understood from Curt and ning.

(Condition 1, In GENERAL, for all outputs without volume lock)
(condition 2, no matter how B/T, EQ setting values made)
when selected to loudness on, when the main volume low down and passed the set value, the bass and treble doesn't drop the same as the middle, it drops less and less as the main volume drops more.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

20

Re: Loudness, B/T question

Johannes AU wrote:

Is Loudness on overrides B/T setting?

for e.g. if Loudness set a 8dB both, and B/T at 6dB both, When Loudness triggered, it will be 8 or 6dB?

Second question, Remap key EQ+B/T+Ld function, what will be the values when on?
============

Or just simple, the higher value takes over?

So after some confusing twists let me go back to the original question:

Loudness and B/T and PEQ can be seen as three serial EQs. So their effect always adds up. As we have 24 dB of headroom digitally that causes no issues. Any kind of going over that headroom will be visible on the level meters.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

21

Re: Loudness, B/T question

Curt962 wrote:

Johannes,

Are you using "Locked Volume"?
It seemed an earlier post of yours suggested you were.  If this were the case, then your Dynamic Loudness function is disabled, and no longer part of the equation.

This statement is not wrong as such but might still confuse readers. Using Locked Volume is nothing else than setting the volume knob to some value and not touching it anymore. It does not disable Loudness. The current Loudness effect of the respective volume setting will be active. But it will no longer work 'dynamically' (change the amount of treble and bass boost) as you no longer change the volume setting.

Hope that helps.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

22 (edited by Johannes AU 2021-07-31 11:57:44)

Re: Loudness, B/T question

Thank you Matthias :-)

Curt did mentioned "With Locked Volume:  Auto-Ref is disabled.  It cannot possibly function with locked vol.", but I can do it at my DAC, is it correct in ESS version DAC (fw 39)?

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

23

Re: Loudness, B/T question

Please read my post again.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

24 (edited by Johannes AU 2021-07-31 15:56:49)

Re: Loudness, B/T question

MC wrote:

Please read my post again.

I understood what you wrote, Alles klar.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen