Topic: ripping vinyl with ADI-2 Pro

Hi
I just replaced my ADI-2 with ADI-2Pro. First, would like to thank the RME team to produce such a wonderful dac, the initial RME Dac replaced my Node2i streamer/DAC. It just bought out a new dimension in listening to my ripped CD collection. I use Volumio Primo as the streamer connected to the ADI via USB.

When I ripped the CD's and used the volumio app for playback, I noticed, I was listening to more music as I did not have to hunt for a CD, and go thru the motions of putting it in the player, etc. etc. Then I listened to 24/96 and 24/192 tracks I bought from HD tracks via ADI-2 and compared it to a similar record playing on vinyl, I could not tell the difference. I also have a little high frequency hearing loss, and have hearing aids :-), so that could attribute it too :-). My LP playback is the new technics DD turntable with lyra delos cartridge feeding to ifi iphono black label. The ADI dac and phono connect to benchmark preamp. I used to have my own 801A DHT preamp, but after listening to benchmark, which provided the little more detail and clarity, I retired my 801A DHT preamp. I built my own SE amps, its a 211 triode driving a 211 triode using monolith magnetics iron, using mosfet source follower to drive the output 211. I can share the details if anyone is interested.

Coming back to the topic, after doing the above comparison, I realized, I will listen to more of my vinyl if I can rip them in hi-res and stream it thru the volumio to ADI dac, so I bought the ADI-2 Pro. I went thru quite a few links on the web regarding ripping vinyl, and got myself a copy of vinyl studio pro for controlling the ripping on my windows laptop, and I also got RCA to XLR-make to connect the phono preamp to ADI pro.

The chain I am putting together for ripping:
  turn table --> iphono black label --> ADI2 Pro on the analog inputs 1/2--> USB out  to USB in --> lenovo thinkpad --> vinyl studio pro --> disk

I will learn how to remove the pop/clicks/hiss, separate tracks with vinyl studio.

Had few questions to the experts here, hopefully to jump start a newbie like me

Q1)  ifi iphono3 states max 6V of undistorted output, currently, I have the ad/da output 1/2 set to +24dBu with autoref off, with volume set to 0db feeding to the benchmark pre. It can handle this level of input, as I had a benchmark dac that outputs +24dBu [which has moved to my office system]. Will this level settings be ok? I will ofcourse record and listen and also keep a look out on the vinyl studio pro if I am overloading, but would appreciate a starting point on the levels.

Q2) As I am recording, and my understanding is the digital outputs are sent to USB and main output 1/2 [page 42 of the manual] and the digital output will be available on the XLR 1/2, which is connected to my preamp - I am assuming I will be able playback the music on my system as I am recroding -- would this be correct?

Any other advice for ripping vinyl :-).

Thank you
Sridhar

2 (edited by KaiS 2021-08-06 21:15:59)

Re: ripping vinyl with ADI-2 Pro

According the setup, seems to be OK.

If you really need +24 dBu for the output is a bit questionable, as it might make handling the Benchmark’s volume control a bit uncomfortable, almost all the way down?
Sometimes analog electronic likes a bit of headroom, most OPA chips have their best performance around +12 dBu.



That aside, my suggestion is for vinyl transfer:

Set the correct recording level for ADI-2 Pro’s analog input.
Check levels of a “hot” vinyl (e.g. a 12” 45 RPM) as test recording on ADI-2’s input meter and in Vinyl Studio.
You should end up somewhere in the range of -12 to -4 dBFS (dB FullScale, digital).
Vinyl peak level does not vary much, once set with a hot vinyl you can leave it.

Choose your record format wisely.
I suggest 2496, 24 bit resolution and a samplerate of 96 kHz.


Removing clicks and crackles without hurting the record quality too much isn’t an easy task.
Therefore it’s best to avoid those as much as possible.


Wet-play is the key for this.
For transfer I use “wet-play” in general.

The exact formula of the fluid used doesn’t matter, it’s demineralized NOT distilled (!) water and chemically clean isopropyl alcohol, i use ca. 50/50%.
The “Lencoclean” brush or it’s later copies works well for wet-play.

Set the stylus force into the upper of the suggested range, this increases trackability and counteracts the effects of the wet-play’s “aquaplaning”.

Even when using the Lencoclean brush to apply the fluid, wet the entire side of the disk before playing, this loosens the dirt.
Use your disc player’s hood to avoid fast drying.

When playing wet, the stylus/cantilever glue area should not be wetted, so use enough to let the stylus run wet, but don’t overdo.

Play the record wet once, this scrapes the dirt out of the groove, then record a 2nd wet run.
After that use a fresh micofiber sheet to dry the record, it will dry-play better than new after that treatment.
You did the same as the famous vinyl record cleaning machines do.


Here’s your tools collection:

Dashbottle for the fluid:
https://smile.amazon.de/neoLab-1577-PE- … amp;sr=8-7
Carbon brush for spreading the fluid on the disc:
https://smile.amazon.de/Pro-Ject-Kohlef … amp;sr=8-3
Lencoclean (contemporary copy):
https://smile.amazon.de/Unbekannt-ANALO … amp;sr=8-5
Isopropanol:
https://smile.amazon.de/Isopropanol-Höf … amp;sr=8-6
Demineralized water:
https://smile.amazon.de/Destilliertes-W … amp;sr=8-6

Re: ripping vinyl with ADI-2 Pro

Thank you, I will reduce the output levels and give it a listening and test out the recording with analog levels setting as you suggested. I have a Fritz Reiner Rimsky Korsakov scheherazade, that I can test the recording levels with.

I have a VPI vacuum cleaner that I will try it with first before going down the steps you have outlined..

thank you so much..

Sridhar

4 (edited by KaiS 2021-08-06 21:40:41)

Re: ripping vinyl with ADI-2 Pro

sridhar.ganti wrote:

I have a VPI vacuum cleaner that I will try it with first before going down the steps you have outlined..

Trust my decades of experience, dry cleaning of records does not work at all.
The dirt sticks and will not go away.
Once you play the record with the dirt it can even be ‘hammered’ into the groove by the stylus, making it hard to remove afterwards.

Using the vacuum before wetting can improve the result, not for the wet-play, but the later dry-play.

BTW: the wet-play process is easier than the describtion reads, once you get used to it.
And the materials don’t cost a fortune.

5 (edited by fisico 2021-08-06 22:43:36)

Re: ripping vinyl with ADI-2 Pro

KaiS wrote:
sridhar.ganti wrote:

I have a VPI vacuum cleaner that I will try it with first before going down the steps you have outlined..

Trust my decades of experience, dry cleaning of records does not work at all.
The dirt sticks and will not go away.
Once you play the record with the dirt it can even be ‘hammered’ into the groove by the stylus, making it hard to remove afterwards.

Using the vacuum before wetting can improve the result, not for the wet-play, but the later dry-play.

BTW: the wet-play process is easier than the describtion reads, once you get used to it.
And the materials don’t cost a fortune.

1) Your decades of experience failed about the VPI. It's not "a dry cleaner", VPI makes wet cleaners with a vacuum wand for drying the record after washing. It is a very well known brand among vinyl lovers, beginners included, and all the models they make are excellent, each in its price band. Their turntables are probably the best ones made in USA.
2) DO NOT WET PLAY A RECORD. Never. a) there will be a drop off of high frequencies, the stylus equivalent mass increases because it has to displace liquid in its motion. b) the solvent will dry on the grooves during playtime making the dirt stick stronger to the groove walls: permanent damage to the record c) wet play with solvents other than water may soften the glue bonding the diamond tip to the cantilever of the cartridge, possible permanent damage to the stylus.

6 (edited by KaiS 2021-08-07 01:11:41)

Re: ripping vinyl with ADI-2 Pro

Wet cleaning alone doesn’t do the trick either.
I do this before wet-play transfer, it improves the result.

Wet-play works much better, when done properly.
But it needs to be controlled all along, it’s not a “set and forget” process.
But it’s not overly complicated on the other hand, and worth the effort for a one time transfer.

Your other points I’ve already mentioned, don’t wet the stylus glue etc.
Pure water doesn’t work BTW, it doesn’t even wet the vinyl surface.
You either need a detergence (say “soap”) or alcohol.


I’m doing re-vinylization here in my studio.

Collectable vinyls (partly worth thousends of $) where no master tapes exist any more are transferred and cleaned for re-issue.
The process is time-consuming, and I’m NOT using DJ equipment or stylus’.


I did a lot of A/B between dry and wet copy before settling to a certain process:

With a DJ type stylus you are right, there is a significant and measurable treble loss, specially on the inner groove.
Anyway these styly cannot correctly track the inner groove’s treble at all.

With the extremely sharp stylus I use that’s not the case.
Even more so, you get a general slight excess of treble on the inner tracks, as treble is pre-compensated for the inner grooves during cutting, and the sharp stylus reads the groove better than initially intended.
The compensation curve is known (it’s part of the Neumann cutting lathe) and re-compensated in post.
Not a bad thing, this improves dynamic in the critical area of the disc.


Under this circomstances wet and dry sounds the same, except that wet has more of a “black” background, as all the micro-crackles are removed.

Re: ripping vinyl with ADI-2 Pro

Thank you for the inputs, given my complete in-experience in this area and having an expensive cartridge, I will go with the VPI cleaning process and first focus on getting the recording fundamentals understood.

Have a question on setting the bit depth and sampling - planning to record wav loss less 24/96, I can set it in vinyl studio, is there a bidirectional handshake happening between vinyl studio and rme dac on the spec's or is there something to set on the ADI pro.

Will go thru the manual again, btw, love the manual, I feel like I am preparing for GRE exam from the younger years, I am 55 :-), hence the hearing loss

thx

8 (edited by KaiS 2021-08-07 18:56:53)

Re: ripping vinyl with ADI-2 Pro

There’s a communication (not „Handshake“) between Vinyl Studio and ADI-2 through the driver/USB connection.
Depending on your configuration it might be better to have ADI-2’s dedicated (ASIO-) driver installed or not.
ASIO bypasses the windows mixer and establishes a direct connection.
Does Vinyl Studio support ASIO?
The manual says, yes, so the dedicated RME drive likely is the better option.

There where some problems reported about switching the samplerate with certain software.
To make sure, switch around samplerates in Vinyl Studio and look at ADI-2’s Main or Status screen if it follows.


Do yorself a favour and compare wet- and dry copy for at least one transfer.
It will be an eye opener.
Don’t worry, nothing can break, the contrary is the case, see below.
This thing cost 35 bucks and contains everything you need as starter:
https://smile.amazon.de/Unbekannt-ANALO … amp;sr=8-5


BTW: Wet-Play multiplies your stylus lifespan by several times.
Ortofon, e.g. tells: the full performance, dry play lifespan of their stylus‘ is just 50-100 h!
I‘ve seen wet-play only stylus‘ with 1000 h with no wear at all under my microscope.

9 (edited by pschelbert 2021-08-07 17:15:21)

Re: ripping vinyl with ADI-2 Pro

Hi

I use Vinylstudio with RME UFX II with ASIO. ASIO Works fine. I use 24Bit/41kHz. 24Bit because to be on the safe side with clicks (no clipping). I see no need to sample higher.  Save all as flac.

Vinylstudio V11.7.1, PC version

Peter

10 (edited by KaiS 2021-08-07 22:12:50)

Re: ripping vinyl with ADI-2 Pro

pschelbert wrote:

I use 24Bit/41kHz. 24Bit because to be on the safe side with clicks (no clipping). I see no need to sample higher.

I use 24 bit 96 kHz.

The 96 kHz are great for identifying the clicks in the spectrogram.
Clicks contain a large amount of ultrasonic frequencies, the music doesn‘t.

Based on this I even developed a semi-automatic process in my DAW (Sequoia) for removing the clicks, which works much better than any software based click removal, leaving the music largely untouched.

Of course the cartridge must be able to read ultrasonics.
Mine works up to 100 kHz.

Re: ripping vinyl with ADI-2 Pro

wanted to give an update

Recording 1: connected the iphono3 to rme analog inputs using RCA to XLR cables, the analog input was set at +24 and mains 1/2 output was +24dBu with volume for mains 1/2 set to 0dBu. On the vinyl studio pro, i set it to asio, and WAV lossless rip with 24/192 :-), as I have 2TB SSD and less 200 albums to RIP. Had an old indian music LP on 12" 45, which I went thru 3 rounds of cleaning on the VPI, and recorded one side. Once the recording was done, i separated the two tracks, this was a pretty pristine record, so did not have any hiss or pops or clicks. Saved the tracks to wav format, copied to my ssd connected to volumio and played the music back. What I found the recording level was low, and I had to pump up the volume on the benchmark Preamp quite a bit, with the RME at +24dBu and volume at 0dBu.

Recording 2: connected the iphono3 to the benchmark Preamp, and connected the benchmark XLR output to RME Analog XLR input, and set the RME volume to -10dBu, and set the benchmark preamp volume up to -10dBu level, and did another recording. Much better levels on playback following the above approach of copying to SSD on volumio

The check recording levels feature of vinyl studio is disabled for usb/asio inputs, so they have a normalize feature, that I discovered, and normalized both the above recordings setting the normalization level to -1dBu, and cut new tracks with the new normalized settings. Played back both, low level normalized and high level normalized, and did not hear any difference, and did a quick a/b with the LP, I don't think I could hear the difference between LP and my Rips, had to stop as my son came over with the grandkids, so had to put it all away. I will pick up ripping again next weekend with more testing.

I need to understand the gain structure on the chain a little better

phono preamp --> RME Analog Input --> AtoD conversion 24/192 --> gain applied according to the +24dBu with volume at 0dBu specification --> USB out to Vinyl Studio --> disk

iPhono3 has decent output, and with the above gain of RME, I am puzzled at the low gain in the recording - what I am missing here in understanding the gain thru the chain? Any input here is much appreciated, as that will help me fine tune this better. The normalize feature is always there, but is it better to get the gain structure correct off the bat, or is the normalize feature non-destructive -- just curious on all these options

thank you for all input and patience

cheers
Sridhar

12

Re: ripping vinyl with ADI-2 Pro

Indeed there seems to be something wrong.

The ADI has input level meters on the Analog Input screen as well as the Global Level Meter screen. You did not look on any of these?

Changing the input Ref Level will make these meters show more or less level. What you seem to have got backwards is that +24 dBu is the reference level, not the gain. Seen as gain this is the lowest one, the input gets less sensitive. On the output it is the opposite, highest level then.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: ripping vinyl with ADI-2 Pro

Thx Matthia, Let me digest your response :-) and do my homework to understand your message
thx

Re: ripping vinyl with ADI-2 Pro

sridhar.ganti wrote:

Thx Matthia, Let me digest your response :-) and do my homework to understand your message
thx

Use a lower ref level on the input to get a higher input signal for your recording.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

Re: ripping vinyl with ADI-2 Pro

Thank you ramses, I was using the input level with a wrong understanding, and also not looking at the input levels to observe and set.

Btw, found this excellent link on modes and operations, was helpful for me to orient myself with the internals.
  https://www.hifizine.com/2019/01/rme-ad … nal-modes/

And also found a related post in the forum on input setting which was helpful: https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=30742

Will give this a try and report back.

thank you