1 (edited by Johannes AU 2021-08-16 11:44:23)

Topic: Horizontal meter

I set the horizontal meter to dual, at some tracks I saw the value goes to and most of the time at the top (OVR)

The post FX values are more responsive and reasonable, is the DAC can process a too loud track and make it better? Or can I observe/understand the pre-FX values to see if it is a bad recording lack of headroom?

(edit) P.S. source is Apple Music Streaming via iOS device.

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Re: Horizontal meter

> is the DAC can process a too loud track and make it better?

if you simply turn down the volume of an overload signal, the result will be a non overload signal.

+3db signal -> turn volume down -10db -> -7db signal (non overload)

alternatively, you can simply boost a non overload volume of a signal to make it overload by simply boost its volume (such as apply B/T/EQ with a positive gain).

-5db signal at 100hz -> +8db EQ at 100hz -> +3db signal (overload)

Re: Horizontal meter

ning wrote:

> is the DAC can process a too loud track and make it better?

if you simply turn down the volume of an overload signal, the result will be a non overload signal.

+3db signal -> turn volume down -10db -> -7db signal (non overload)

alternatively, you can simply boost a non overload volume of a signal to make it overload by simply boost its volume (such as apply B/T/EQ with a positive gain).

-5db signal at 100hz -> +8db EQ at 100hz -> +3db signal (overload)

Thanks ning.

I got it. However, the signal is streaming Apple Music via iOS device, cannot control signal, it comes as it is ......

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: Horizontal meter

ning wrote:

> is the DAC can process a too loud track and make it better?

if you simply turn down the volume of an overload signal, the result will be a non overload signal.

+3db signal -> turn volume down -10db -> -7db signal (non overload)

alternatively, you can simply boost a non overload volume of a signal to make it overload by simply boost its volume (such as apply B/T/EQ with a positive gain).

-5db signal at 100hz -> +8db EQ at 100hz -> +3db signal (overload)

I understand what you mean, it is same as I did cassette tape recording in the old days, we can bring down a too loud sound by turning down the input level at the cassette deck, or boost it a bit with EQ.

ning, or I should express myself in this way:

The source is fixed via iOS streaming, it is very loud, I can bring it down by volume setting at line out or phones/IEM out, what I mean is, that "loud" streaming source doesn't mean it is a bad recording? and I do not have to care about it, instead I just adjust the output level is OK?

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Listen music out from a box which sounds
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5 (edited by ning 2021-08-16 14:03:35)

Re: Horizontal meter

> that "loud" streaming source doesn't mean it is a bad recording? and I do not have to care about it, instead I just adjust the output level is OK?

If the music dynamic range is compressed during mixing, such information is lost forever. there is no way you can revert that back.

Ideally a music track should have only one or very few maxed volume sample (during the final mixing stage one should scale the samples so that max sample equals to full range). If it’s constantly loud with lots of inter sample overloads (clips), then it’s not properly mixed, and there is no way to save it.

You can search Wikipedia for loudness war for more information.

Re: Horizontal meter

ning wrote:

> that "loud" streaming source doesn't mean it is a bad recording? and I do not have to care about it, instead I just adjust the output level is OK?

If the music dynamic range is compressed during mixing, such information is lost forever. there is no way you can revert that back.

Ideally a music track should have only one or very few maxed volume sample (during the final mixing stage one should scale the samples so that max sample equals to full range). If it’s constantly loud with lots of inter sample overloads (clips), then it’s not properly mixed, and there is no way to save it.


Thanks ning, this is what I encountered, not only songs, even internet radio ...  and I hate it ....

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
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Re: Horizontal meter

Thanks to the Dual VU meters and the Spectral Analyzer, now I can avoid those compressed audio.... :-)

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8 (edited by KaiS 2021-08-17 16:37:15)

Re: Horizontal meter

Johannes AU wrote:

Thanks to the Dual VU meters and the Spectral Analyzer, now I can avoid those compressed audio.... :-)

If you like the song, just listen to the music and stop caring too much about the sound.
Especially don’t care about what the meters do, if it sounds good to you it sounds good.

The meters can guide someone who is producing, but later on it doesn’t make sense to judge the song but it’s metering behavior.

Personally I’m more concerned about all the classic (not classical) recordings in streaming, replaced by new, really bad sounding remasters.
Sometimes they are louder and sometimes they are pumping, but usually they are no improvement at all.
One example: Just lately all Rickie Lee Jones recordings were replaced with dynamically compressed remasters that take away a lot of what makes her special.
I think she does not gain a single more new customer, but at least lost one, me.

This situation makes me listen to the original CDs much more than I did lately.

The strange thing is: due to “Loudness Normalization” the new remasters do not sound louder than the original recordings, they just sound less impactful.


BTW: Adele seems to have her songs (unmentioned) being re-mastered the other direction.
I remember her being completely distorted.
They are still loud, but now don’t have obvious distortions anymore.

9 (edited by CrispyChips 2021-08-17 23:50:29)

Re: Horizontal meter

Quote: “If the music dynamic range is compressed during mixing, such information is lost forever. there is no way you can revert that back.”


I’m pleased to read some of the excellent observations in this thread.

It’s complicated, but naturally occurring dynamics, harmonic transients, attack and release are a huge part of what makes music, musical. 

Take those away and the sausage of sonance one is left with, makes for an ear wearying, brain fatiguing, processed lump, that ultimately stops people spending hard earnt money on recorded music.

If sounds really great at first though…

For several seconds.


Quote: “this is what I encountered, not only songs, even internet radio ...  and I hate it ....”


The death of dynamic range.

I understand record company executives give a track an average of seven seconds when deciding what to release. Louder, sounds better, at first.

Digital devices mean tracks from differing sources are commonly lifted from their albums and placed on a carousel alongside other tracks, resulting in commonplace “normalisation” for consistency.

They have been compressing lots of classical albums for a considerable time now, and the amount of editing is unbelievable.

A friend complained that at his mastering stage he had to perform 1,000 edits on 60 minutes of classical music.

It’s because critics harshly draw comparisons between the latest releases and find fault, if they can.

The trouble is, the true spontaneous life and soul of a captured performance is thereby lost.

Some may find this link is enlightening.

http://ozzgod.com/dynamicrange/death.html


Quote: “Especially don’t care about what the meters do, if it sounds good to you it sounds good.”


At one point, the late Tom Dowd at Atlantic Records became convinced his engineers were being more influenced by what the meters told their eyes, instead of truly listening and hearing what their ears were trying to tell them.

He had all the meters on their Large Format Recording Console painted over with black paint, to force everybody working there to use and rely solely upon their ears.

Lots of truly great stories about Tom could be told. His daughter Dana is a lovely person.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSEIjZQ … rJVLRM3Gz9


Quote: “The meters can guide someone who is producing, but later on it doesn’t make sense to judge the song but it’s metering behavior.”


A very experienced old pal, had a completely new act he was recording, in his studio.

They were amazed at how much attention he paid to the meters on his Large Format Recording Console.

Imprudently, they made some ill-advised, provocative comments regarding this mesmerising production habit, and because of that, he set them a bold challenge.

“I’ll leave the studio for 20 minutes (it was a residential studio), and you can set up whatever mics you like, with whatever instrument’s you like and put screens across the studio window so I can’t see what you’ve done. We’ll switch off the amplifier for the monitors, and I’ll record you, unable to hear a thing, just watching the meters. alone”

He came back, not knowing which mic was used on which instrument, nor which instrument was on which channel.

They used the talkback to communicate, got some levels and played their song which he recorded.

It was mixed perfectly, with every sound source, exactly at an ideal level.

They kept their thoughts and comments to themselves after that!


Quote: “The strange thing is: due to “Loudness Normalization” the new remasters do not sound louder than the original recordings, they just sound less impactful.”


This may be of interest.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ

Re: Horizontal meter

Thank you ning, KaiS and CrispyChips, all of you taught me a lot :-)

When I start to use the RME DAC, I selected Auto Dark mode, never cares about it, at the former firmware 39, I noticed the loudness is too much, could be I myself need a fine tune for the new hardware configuration, I didn't care about it and I think a new firmware might fix it if it is the cause. (at that time I turn down the volume of the MacOS music app around 20-40%, yes! especially those remastered tracks, Spectral Analyzer channels mostly jumps between -30 to 0 until the song stops)

After firmware 41, I guess it will be better together with my better understanding of the DAC settings. But I found some tracks still too loud and I started to look at the Spectral Analyzer, all channels stays very high ..... as KaiS said, not musical .... makes my brain feel tired.

The Spectral Analyzer and VU meter are for reference only, I agreed we listen to music not looking at screens, as I mentioned before, I did make tape recordings myself, first a mono Sony cassettecorder, then a Stereo one, the TC-D5M, both have mechanical VU meters only, we listen to the recordings to find/feel the correct values, the VU meters is an assistance aid.

Boney M's old tracks are not "loud" but still impactful, enjoyable .... for me, new songs are too loud in average .... I did compare the same song between CD and streaming, it was different.

Internet Radios, I found Germany and UK ones are very nice, dynamics well controlled, only the All Oldies Radio UK is messy.... looks like someone is not follow the norm, suppose all radio channels should sound at same loudness.

We want music not noise, singing not shouting.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

11 (edited by Johannes AU 2021-08-18 07:09:13)

Re: Horizontal meter

BTW, I have a joke to tell ...

After I got the RME DAC, some of my friends rush to my place and try degrade it by listening with their "golden ears", I cheat them with the polarity changed to left or right, they were amazed by the "sound stage" what they heard, when they found the truth (I told them) their faces turn red .... I teased them, suggest they can "upgrade" their stereo by changing the polarity so no one can beat..... haha

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: Horizontal meter

Very interesting :-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-10h7Mu5VP8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=brXOrmgPCfE

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen