Topic: PEQ setting for pre-amp

Hi,

Many PEQ settings come with a preamp setting in dB. How do you set that on the adi-2 dac fs (ess sabre), if possible.

Thanks for your help.

Cheers

Re: PEQ setting for pre-amp

ADI-2 has a smart function called “Auto Reference Level”.

Beside having advantages in the dynamic range utilization, it does the calculations for you.

It even takes into account all other of ADI-2’s DSP functions.
When activated, the Volume is shown in dBr instead of plain dB.
0 dBr marks full usage of the DAC chip.

But, even the level steps below, right where the automatic reference level switching happen, give maximum DAC usage, and even the levels inbetween are close to optimum dynamic range.
This is done by automatically switching the reference level in the analog domain - smart, isn’t it?!


If you still want to do it manually, look at the curve in the EQ display, the highest point is the extra gain from the PEQ that needs to be used as minus / –dB volume value.

Re: PEQ setting for pre-amp

Thank you for a clear and comprehensive reply.

4 (edited by Johannes AU 2021-09-01 08:05:55)

Re: PEQ setting for pre-amp

KaiS, though I have the RME DAC for more than a month, sometimes I still struggle about the output level.

I have the AutoRef set to on, I prefer +9dBu for my Amp, when I turn up from +7dBu and it goes up to +13dBu and minus something until I reach -4dBr, so the DAC automatically pump up to next level to get better dynamic range, am I understand it correctly?

And I lock the volume to stay safe from accidentally moving it up or down to have peace of mind, right?

I also obsevre the hor. meter (dual) to see if the B/T, EQ is added too much to the output level, is it a good method?

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

5 (edited by KaiS 2021-09-01 10:10:19)

Re: PEQ setting for pre-amp

Johannes AU wrote:

KaiS, though I have the RME DAC for more than a month, sometimes I still struggle about the output level.

I have the AutoRef set to on, I prefer +9dBu for my Amp, when I turn up from +7dBu and it goes up to +13dBu and minus something until I reach -4dBr, so the DAC automatically pump up to next level to get better dynamic range, am I understand it correctly?

And I lock the volume to stay safe from accidentally moving it up or down to have peace of mind, right?

I also obsevre the hor. meter (dual) to see if the B/T, EQ is added too much to the output level, is it a good method?

Much too much hustle.

Let Auto Reference Level do it’s job and forget about levels.

ADI-2 DAC has 123 dB SNR (signal to noise ratio) and a 144 dB resolution of low level signals.
Auto Ref. Level adds another 18 dB on top of this for volume control.
This is about 1000 times better, literally, than CD quality, which by itself is better than most music productions can deliver.
Compared to vinyl it’s 100,000 times better, really!

Consider this “solved”, set a level that comfortably fits and listen to music.

And don’t let any audiofool tell you “this and that level” sounds “so much better”, it’s not true and can’t stand the prove of an unbiased A/B test.
Doing so is part of my daily job, even comparing to the original, live played signal in my studio.

6 (edited by Johannes AU 2021-09-01 10:29:15)

Re: PEQ setting for pre-amp

KaiS wrote:
Johannes AU wrote:

KaiS, though I have the RME DAC for more than a month, sometimes I still struggle about the output level.

I have the AutoRef set to on, I prefer +9dBu for my Amp, when I turn up from +7dBu and it goes up to +13dBu and minus something until I reach -4dBr, so the DAC automatically pump up to next level to get better dynamic range, am I understand it correctly?

And I lock the volume to stay safe from accidentally moving it up or down to have peace of mind, right?

I also obsevre the hor. meter (dual) to see if the B/T, EQ is added too much to the output level, is it a good method?

Much too much hustle.

Let Auto Reference Level do it’s job and forget about levels.

ADI-2 DAC has 123 dB SNR (signal to noise ratio) and a 144 dB resolution of low level signals.
Auto Ref. Level adds another 18 dB on top of this for volume control.
This is about 1000 times better, literally, than CD quality, which by itself is better than most music productions can deliver.
Compared to vinyl it’s 100,000 times better, really!

Consider this “solved”, set a level that comfortably fits and listen to music.

And don’t let any audiofool tell you “this and that level” sounds “so much better”, it’s not true and can’t stand the prove of an unbiased A/B test.
Doing so is part of my daily job, even comparing to the original, live played signal in my studio.

Thank you so much KaiS, at the first day of the DAC, I just plug and play, and enjoys it so much, may be I worried too much especially on the limited input level of the Amp (max. 2.4V), and I confused myself ....

Yes, I cannot hear any difference at various levels, it just sounds the same, only louder or less loud.

But now the sky is clear after reading your instruction, Vielen Dank !!

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: PEQ setting for pre-amp

KaiS wrote:

And don’t let any audiofool tell you.......

Yup, I never buy expensive cables, only buy CORRECT cables fits to the length with good, tight contacts, unless I run a 20 meters long cables, may be need something better. A good piece of equipment is the end game.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

8 (edited by KaiS 2021-09-01 10:59:56)

Re: PEQ setting for pre-amp

ADI-2 can feed 400 meters of normal quality (100 pf/m) cable with no audible frequency loss (fo 40 kHz).
20 meters is no problem.

In ProAudio situations very often we have to run audio lines of 100 meters and more.
Even in the studio 20-40 meters for the very sensitive microphone signals is unavoidable, but isn’t the slightest of a problem without exotic solutions.

We did test to place the mic amps directly where the mic’s are located, but other than a great inconvenience (setting gain) nothing changed, no better sound.
Time’s better spend to work with the artist, improve performance, which really gains a better result.

Re: PEQ setting for pre-amp

>>ADI-2 can feed 400 meters of normal quality (100 pf/m) cable with no audible frequency loss (fo 40 kHz).

überlegenheit !!

>>Time’s better spend to work with the artist, improve performance, which really gains a better result.

100% Agree !!

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: PEQ setting for pre-amp

KaiS wrote:

ADI-2 has a smart function called “Auto Reference Level”.

Beside having advantages in the dynamic range utilization, it does the calculations for you.

It even takes into account all other of ADI-2’s DSP functions.

...

If you still want to do it manually, look at the curve in the EQ display, the highest point is the extra gain from the PEQ that needs to be used as minus / –dB volume value.

Does this mean that the ADI-2 with Auto Ref Level effectively applies pre(post?)amp gain - highest gain from PEQ+B/T+Loudness ?

11 (edited by Johannes AU 2022-01-06 16:32:10)

Re: PEQ setting for pre-amp

eleweit wrote:
KaiS wrote:

ADI-2 has a smart function called “Auto Reference Level”.

Beside having advantages in the dynamic range utilization, it does the calculations for you.

It even takes into account all other of ADI-2’s DSP functions.

...

If you still want to do it manually, look at the curve in the EQ display, the highest point is the extra gain from the PEQ that needs to be used as minus / –dB volume value.

Does this mean that the ADI-2 with Auto Ref Level effectively applies pre(post?)amp gain - highest gain from PEQ+B/T+Loudness ?

KaiS wrote:

It’s not too complicated if you’re familiar with gain staging and digital audio formats.

Think of the ADI-2 as blocks:
• Digital Input (no headroom)
• Optional Sample Rate Converter (3-6 dB adjustable headroom)
• Digital Processing and Volume Control (24 dB headroom)
• DA-Conversion, digital part (no headroom)
• DAC chip’s analog stage (ca. 3 dB headroom)
• ADI-2’s analog output amplifier (DAC 18 dB, Pro 20 dB mechanical relay stepped gain staging)

Practically the “Auto Reference Level” function does all necessary calculations and adjustments (digital volume and analog reference level) for you, so you just don’t need to care.

I found the above post of KaiS, which is a very clear and good explanation, perfect for understanding the DAC and Auto Ref level.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

Re: PEQ setting for pre-amp

Hehe thanks, I've read that one already, but it doesn't exactly confirm what I'm asking. I'd really like to know whether 'all necessary calculations and adjustments' includes a gain compensation equal to max PEQ etc gain. Thinking of it I could probably just measure that with loopback.

13 (edited by KaiS 2022-01-06 16:57:12)

Re: PEQ setting for pre-amp

eleweit wrote:
KaiS wrote:

ADI-2 has a smart function called “Auto Reference Level”.

Beside having advantages in the dynamic range utilization, it does the calculations for you.

It even takes into account all other of ADI-2’s DSP functions.

...

If you still want to do it manually, look at the curve in the EQ display, the highest point is the extra gain from the PEQ that needs to be used as minus / –dB volume value.

Does this mean that the ADI-2 with Auto Ref Level effectively applies pre(post?)amp gain - highest gain from PEQ+B/T+Loudness ?

It’s more simplistic:

ADI-2s internal signal processing is done with 42 bit resolution, this is 12 bit or 108 dB more resolution than the audio signal itself contains.
24 dB of this extra dynamic range is used for internal headroom, enough to prevent clipping by i.e. PEQ level boosts.

The Volume control is the final step, and Auto Reference Level does the calculations for you so you can go up to 0 dBr Volume without clipping the DAC chip.


With “Auto Reference Level” disabled, you’d need to watch the Post FX Level Meter to avoid clipping, and manually select you Reference Level - not recommend!
I tried this when I first got my ADI-2, it’s not convenient and distracts from the music.

14 (edited by Johannes AU 2022-01-06 16:55:37)

Re: PEQ setting for pre-amp

eleweit wrote:

Hehe thanks, I've read that one already, but it doesn't exactly confirm what I'm asking. I'd really like to know whether 'all necessary calculations and adjustments' includes a gain compensation equal to max PEQ etc gain. Thinking of it I could probably just measure that with loopback.


Oh I see ..... my understanding is "post", may be some other member(s) can give you a clearer explanstion or correct me if I was wrong.

Pacifist, dumb, not stupid
Listen music out from a box which sounds
Reading words on paper/ screen

15 (edited by KaiS 2022-01-06 17:04:45)

Re: PEQ setting for pre-amp

eleweit wrote:

Hehe thanks, I've read that one already, but it doesn't exactly confirm what I'm asking. I'd really like to know whether 'all necessary calculations and adjustments' includes a gain compensation equal to max PEQ etc gain. Thinking of it I could probably just measure that with loopback.

Auto Reference Level calculates the highest gain through the audio frequency range.
This value is used to calibrate the dBr (r = reference) value for the volume control.

0 dBr then is the highest volume that doesn‘t clip the DAC chip.

Re: PEQ setting for pre-amp

KaiS wrote:

It’s more simplistic:

ADI-2s internal signal processing is done with 42 bit resolution, this is 12 bit or 108 dB more resolution than the audio signal itself contains.
24 dB of this extra dynamic range is used for internal headroom, enough to prevent clipping by i.e. PEQ level boosts.

The Volume control is the final step, and Auto Reference Level does the calculations for you so you can go up to 0 dBr Volume without clipping the DAC chip.


With “Auto Reference Level” disabled, you’d need to watch the Post FX Level Meter to avoid clipping, and manually select you Reference Level - not recommend!
I tried this when I first got my ADI-2, it’s not convenient and distracts from the music.

Aha, makes sense.

I'm trying to A/B EQ presets but it's a bit hard because the levels aren't matched. I did have the impression Auto Reference Level does something to level but couldn't figure out what. I guess there's no other way than to save all settings including volume and toggle between those? And the original question by dogcoop is still a valid feature request (i.e. a gain setting saved with preset)?

17 (edited by KaiS 2022-01-06 19:38:27)

Re: PEQ setting for pre-amp

eleweit wrote:

I'm trying to A/B EQ presets but it's a bit hard because the levels aren't matched. I did have the impression Auto Reference Level does something to level but couldn't figure out what. I guess there's no other way than to save all settings including volume and toggle between those? And the original question by dogcoop is still a valid feature request (i.e. a gain setting saved with preset)?

There‘s no level setting that could be saved with a PEQ preset.

You‘re right, the only way would be to use “Setups“ to recall a certain Volume setting with a PEQ preset.

Auto Reference Level doesn’t change the gain when switching or adjusting an EQ.

Personally I never missed it, but by my profession I’m so used to judge EQs without level compensation, as it’s part of my daily job for ages.

Re: PEQ setting for pre-amp

Fair point atcually, but I need more training for that smile only works for me if I can focus on one single instrument and then still depends on type of music.