1 (edited by Reflaction 2021-09-03 22:57:44)

Topic: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

Hi
a few months ago I updated my audio interface to RME UFX II to upgrade my performance and the latency problem that I had, and I still got a latency problem while I'm recording that I cant understand.
My PC is not new but I consider my PC as a strong one, Windows 10 64x, Intel i7-9700k, 16 RAM, and to hard disk with a lot of space, and I'm using Ableton 11 up to date.

I've recorded a drum loop from my digitakt via midi, the digitakt is the first machine that gets the midi message (and I'm using a lot of synths).
Sample rate 44100
Buffer size 64 samples.

from a listening position, you can't tell the difference but on the Ableton I don't see the wave in right place, on the 1.1 bar.

what can be the problem?
is that the midi protocol ? my computer? Ableton?


I've attached photos to be clear
thank you

https://i.ibb.co/zZFjSPK/IMG-20210903-212322.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/Y3zXdDF/IMG-20210903-211922.jpg

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

So that is t what we would call latency with the figures you are looking at. So what we normally think of as latency is the time from when you press a key on a keyboard or hit a e drum pad to it sounding through the speakers/headphones. The latency you are getting is probably midi as the audio will be recorded as it comes in. Maybe the synth does not react that fast.

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

yes, you're right!
I will edit the post.

I thought about midi but it happened with other synths as well.
I'm using also Midi Solution Thru gear.
How can I fix it ?

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

Hello!

You need to set a delay compensation value!

If you are sending MIDI from Ableton to your synths, you need to set a negative delay value to the Ableton's MIDI Output.
or if Ableton receives MIDI from one of your synths, you need to set a negative delay value to the Ableton's MIDI Input!

Also, you need to set which side will be sending MIDI Clock information to the other. Either Ableton or your hardware signal chain.

Here 's a link :  https://help.ableton.com/hc/en-us/artic … e-via-MIDI

(the setting for the delay compensation is the "MIDI Clock Sync Delay")

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

thank you metalheadkeys
the Ableton is my master clock and of course that I know how to configure it!
although thanks for open my eyes for the delay compensation, I didn't think about it

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

if I change the buffer size during a project while I'm recording do I need to tweak the delay again?

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

The buffer size should have nothing to do with it.

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

Reflaction wrote:

if I change the buffer size during a project while I'm recording do I need to tweak the delay again?

You 're welcome, Reflaction!!

I think you do need to change the delay, again.
Here 's a quote from the above link, Step 4:

Because of a number of factors, including audio buffer sizes both in Live
and in the connected device, the timing of the two will probably be slightly offset.
You can correct the timing by adjusting the MIDI Clock Sync Delay.

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

MetalHeadKeys wrote:
Reflaction wrote:

if I change the buffer size during a project while I'm recording do I need to tweak the delay again?

You 're welcome, Reflaction!!

I think you do need to change the delay, again.
Here 's a quote from the above link, Step 4:

Because of a number of factors, including audio buffer sizes both in Live
and in the connected device, the timing of the two will probably be slightly offset.
You can correct the timing by adjusting the MIDI Clock Sync Delay.

Thank you!
I tried to adjust the midi clock serval times with some methods
I got close but not exactly on the bar
Do you have any tips for that?

10 (edited by MetalHeadKeys 2021-09-07 04:37:31)

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

You 're welcome!!

If Ableton has a "time" view and not only the regular "bars/beats" view, you can zoom in the exact time where audio starts after the MIDI Note, and set that as your (negative)delay value!

Else, you can use this:  https://www.tuneform.com/tools/time-tem … seconds-ms
to calculate your BPM tempo to milliseconds. (if you scroll down, you 'll find a table with many pre-calculated values)

Or you can use another DAW that provides "time" view(Reaper for example) and check there what the value should be!!

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

yeah, that exactly what I've tried.
but still, it is not so accurate

I think it's the digitakt now because when I send midi to the machine I can see the tempo change, for example, when the master clock is 120 BPM every second I can see the tempo change in the digitakt it's like 120.2 to 120 bpm and 119.9.
maybe this causes that problem?

12 (edited by MetalHeadKeys 2021-09-09 05:08:52)

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

Yes, it could be the problem.
Did you try with one of your other synths? or without the Midi Solution Thru box?

Did you search if there are any problems reported for the digitakt, regarding external MIDI clocking?

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

I didn't check the digitakt issue (also my analog four have the same problem)because I've tried to record my 707 now and I still got it
I didn't use the Midi Solution Thru Box

this is so frustrating

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

Yeah, I can relate!

Have you checked the "Sync" option in the MIDI Out Port settings and left the same option un-checked for the MIDI In Port ?
(for Ableton being Midi Clock Master. If you want your hardware chain as Master, reverse these options)

Section 32.3.1, here:  https://www.ableton.com/en/manual/synch … -and-midi/


Can you, also, try a test with Reaper? (free for a certain amount of time, but unlimited functionality)

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

Yeah of course I checked it and unchecked for the midi in

I will try Reaper in the next few days and will report

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

Hi all and hi MetalHeadKeys

I've tried with Reaper and i got the same problem hmm

what can I do now ?

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

I don't know much about Windows, but have you run LatencyMon, or DPC Latency Checker?

It's very possible that your PC has a hardware problem that causes this latency, these tools can give you a pointer as to what to change, or remove.

OSes "phoning home" seems to be a likely culprit, even if the machine isn't connected to a network at all since these tools collect info and cache that info until you go online.

See:
https://resplendence.com/latencymon

DPC Latency Checker seems to be gone from Thesycon's site. Mmm...

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

Hi cyrano , thank you!

I will check the app soon and see what I'm getting. do I need it to be open while I'm recording? or any time can be ok ?
and can you give me more details about the OSes "phoning home" I really didn't get it

cherrs

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

LatencyMon issues already smth compareable to a recording load.
I personally use it on an idle system to see, what keeps the system busy although the system should be quiet and do nothing.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub10Pro, UFX+, XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

ok thank you guys for this tool, I've checked the website and the other tools look interesting as well do you have any recommendations?

and for the LatencyMon I've run it now while I recorded 12 tracks at the same time with 64 samples.
the conclusion is: "your system appears to be subtle for handling real-time audio and other tasks with dropouts".

the highest measured interrupt is 324.50
the highest reported DSP routine is 428.290 wdf01000.sys

I see we go deeper and deeper , what I should do next ?

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

?

22 (edited by ramses 2021-09-20 13:38:38)

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

If there are no bigger spikes of 1000us (1ms) then LatencyMon will keep telling you, system is ok for audio.
To get aware of any spikes you need to run this for longer time period up to several hours or a day.
Because Microsoft has a few jobs in the Task Planner, that might be startet and can cause a spike.
So I would lets it finally run over the usual office hours (if you do not see issues earlier).
And I would use the smallest ASIO buffer size to challenge this more.
But keep the system IDLE otherwise .. because LatencyMon issues kind of a - lets say - typical DAW load.

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub10Pro, UFX+, XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

ok thanks for the tip, I will do that.
but I still got with that problem, I really don't suspect the PC, I know it well.
I guess it's probably the midi protocol but it's strange that I can't fix it with the midi clock sync on Ableton

24 (edited by ramses 2021-09-21 06:19:02)

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

And the higher DPC are, the more likely CPU cores may be blocked who have been selected for audio related tasks
(-> "bad drivers", too many (background) jobs, CPU or I/O or interrupt load).
In such cases you need to mitigate or solve the issue or to compensate by e.g.
- using higher ASIO buffersizes which buffer audio long enough, so that there is enough time to perform audio processing in time
- using not too high sample rates which increase the amount of data which needs to be processed by all applications

It's a good strategy to use ASIO buffersizes that are high enough to be on the save side, especially if you are recording.
For mixing or mastering the demands are usually not so high if you follow certain best practices.
Extremely low ASIO buffersizes are only needed in special cases when you work with virtual instruments.
But here the RME drivers are so well, that you can e.g. play guitar through a virtual amp (VSTi) with an ASIO buffersize <= 128, to be below 10ms RTL (@44.1 kHz).

See some examople values here from my blog: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ind … 8-RME-UFX/

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.php/Attachment/2343-UFX-UFX-RayDAT-Latencies-v2-jpg/

BR
Ramses
X10SRi-F, E5-1650v4, Win10Pro21H2, Cub10Pro, UFX+, XTC, 12Mic, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

thank you ramses for the image
but I'm able to record audio with asio buffer 64 with no problem but still the waveform is off the grid, sometimes  it happens before the first bar.
I really don't understand it and I still didn't solve it!

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

Hi. Reflaction!
Sorry for the late reply, but I was head-over-heels with work and didn 't have time to research!

After some research, I found out that this situation is standard with MIDI and external hardware!

Here is a good article, I found, describing how to deal with it :  https://www.attackmagazine.com/techniqu … cy-issues/

We 've discussed about these options, allready, but it's a good read!

The only extra option, we didn 't point out is that there is an option under "Options" Menu in Ableton, called "Delay Conpensation".
Check that one, as well, if you haven't, allready!

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

Hi MetalHeadKeys
thank you for your reply I hope is everything doing well.

I read the article, thanks for that
The delay compensation option was ticked
maybe I can change my workflow like his method with the Ableton external device that I sometimes used,
but normally I just route my audio directly.
but still, I found my problem is with the clock and not just with the option of sending midi and recorded it.
even when I just sequence my synths.

28

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

Does your setup allow you to set anything else as master for clocking midi? I seem to recall reading some years ago about some DAWs being very sloppy midi clock masters so that might be worth trying if you can.

Re: Unusual latency problem while recording with RME UFX II

rAC wrote:

Does your setup allow you to set anything else as master for clocking midi? I seem to recall reading some years ago about some DAWs being very sloppy midi clock masters, so that might be worth trying if you can.

yes, my setup provide it, but it is the best for me to work in that way; but I will consider it and maybe will give it an extra try

Do you maybe have more information about that?