1 (edited by JanThePianoMan 2021-11-28 22:07:44)

Topic: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

Dear All,

I have the original Babyface, which still works great. It's connected to an external mic pre/ADC (Audient Mico) and DAC (Violectric V800), so I use it mainly as a digital interface, rather than for its analog in and outs.

My question: will round-trip latency be noticably better with a Digiface USB?
I use Pianoteq all the time, so it's especially output latency that matters.

I'm getting the following RTL values with the Babyface (which still outperforms most current interfaces):

48K, buffersize 48: 4.479 ms
96K, buffersize 128: 4.323 ms
192K, buffersize 192: 3.214 ms

With the Violectric instead of the analog outputs on the BF, the latency is up to 0.5 ms higher (not that this is noticeable in practice, of course). The difference decreases with higher sample rates.

I'm also interested in the HDSPe AIO Pro, but this is currently unavailable.

Thanks for your help!

Jan

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

Hello!

For the DigiFace USB,
Reported Latency in Reaper:
@48K: 0.7ms(In), 1.7ms(Out), 32 Buffersize
@96K: 0,6ms(In), 1.3ms(Out), 64 Buffersize
@192: 0.6ms(In), 1.2ms(Out), 128 Buffersize

Myself, I 'm using 128buffer @48K -> 2.7ms(In), 3.7ms(Out).
I, also, record my guitar directly with the same buffersize(using Impulse Responses) and the feel is great.

I guess, that with the 4-5ms latency of your BF , it must be very comfortable, as well !

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

3 (edited by ramses 2021-11-29 13:08:45)

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

When playing through virtual amps my personal observation is, that everything feels right, when RTL is <=10ms.
This you can achieve with all RME recording interfaces with ASIO buffersizes of 128 @44.1 kHz.

The converter latency is much lower compared to the transmission time through USB/FW/TB/PCI(e).
The ASIO buffersize has much more impact on the latency.

The old RME USB drivers allows ASIO buffersizes down to 48 samples.
The newer MADIface and thunderbolt driver allow ASIO buffersizes down to 32 samples.

With higher sample rates the quality is not that much better, you might risk that the PC can't process data in time.
The more channels you have the more audio data needs to be transferred and all channels of a recording interface are being transferred instantly, no matter whether you have them in use or not.

The only exception is the HDSPe MADI FX which allocates driver resources for channels in groups of 8.
So if you use only a few or all channels from 1-8, then only 8 channels of audio will be transferred through PCIe.
If you use the 9th and 17th, then 3x8=24ch are being transferred.
This has been done according to RME, because of the high number of channels (3 MADI busses).

For Apple there is usually an additional safety buffer there on top for the little higher latency through the Apple sound system as the system calls to read/write data are a little more "expensive" compared to the direct access to the devices through ASIO drivers under Windows which bypasses the Windows sound system entirely.

For comparison the RTL (round trip latency, A/D and D/A and time to travel across USB/FW/... 2 times) for RayDAT, UFX, UFX+
and special combinations in column 5 and 6
- UFX as Preamp connected to RayDAT through ADAT
- Octamic XTC conneted through MADI to UFX+

https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/index.php/Attachment/2343-UFX-UFX-RayDAT-Latencies-v2-jpg/

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13

4 (edited by JanThePianoMan 2021-11-29 19:44:54)

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

Thanks both!

I'm on a Windows 10 PC, i9-10900 @ 2.80GHz, 32 GB RAM. For 48K, buffersize 128, Reaper reports 3.8 ms input / 3.9 ms output latency. So the difference with the Digiface USB is very small indeed, especially since input latency is irrelevant for virtual piano software.

Having said this, I'm still considering the Digiface. Original Babyfaces still go for good prices on the second-hand market, and the Digiface is a really future-proof solution.

And apparently you can go down to lower buffer sizes with the Digiface. For 96K, for example, the Babyface doesn't go lower than 96 samples, and this actually doesn't sit well with Pianoteq, which prefers multiples of 64.

Question for MetalHeadKeys: what converters do you use with the Digiface?

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

The original bf will be supported just as  long, knowing RME. The only device they could not support is the original hammerfall, which could not work on 64 bit. But they even support it on 32 bit still.
The brain is perfectly equipped for low latency under 5ms cause the brain itself has significant latency, even very high latency when you are drunk lol. Hence driving is unsafe.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

vinark wrote:

The original bf will be supported just as  long, knowing RME. [...]
The brain is perfectly equipped for low latency under 5ms cause the brain itself has significant latency, even very high latency when you are drunk lol. Hence driving is unsafe.

You're probably right about long-term support for the original BF. It's now going into its 11th year, I believe.

I like the idea of drinking as inducing 'brain latency'!

7 (edited by vinark 2021-11-29 22:46:39)

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

Sorry highly off topic, but hopefully interesting for ultra low latency lovers.
Brain round trip latency is called reaction speed.
There is a reaction speed test for car drivers, a simulation, where you evade garbage cans and children. You take the test sober and with 2 drinks. Everyone passes the same test sober. No one with 2 drinks. Everybody thinks they are not impacted before hand . Brain latency is very interesting and the only reason we can adapt to different buffer sizes. We are used to it from being  tired or intoxicated. The whole brain is non real time and compensates. If interested search about tennis referies and why they have a bias for calling a ball "out" when it is not.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

Great subject Vinark!

I like to view brain latency from drinking as a parallel reality! smile

Joking aside, yes, latency is a matter of feel. And the more experienced someone is with his instrument, the easier it is for him to perceive a couple milliseconds of latency to be off! For example 10ms compared to 8ms!

@JanThePianoMan
I use my beloved Korg Kronos-X for AD! (I, also, have my guitar preamp connected to one of its inputs)
And a Presonus DigiMax FS 8channel preamp/converter for DA! (and AD, as well, because the Kronos supports only 48KHz via Optical SPDIF)

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

9 (edited by CrispyChips 2021-11-30 17:07:57)

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

Quote: “Brain round trip latency is called reaction speed.”

Mental chronometry is an incredibly complex subject with many sides of research, related to it. It’s an extremely vast, profoundly deep subject indeed.

Quote: “the more experienced someone is with his instrument, the easier it is for him to perceive a couple milliseconds of latency to be off! For example 10ms compared to 8ms!”


A good point, well made.

There was a good producer and bass guitarist who lived with his studio, in a nearby village, ironically enough, famous for its locally produced beer.

Unfortunately, he sold the whole place up after his wife who was already quite ill, suffered from a tragic airgun accident and sadly passed on. Totally heart breaking!

I remember him commenting that the now late Chris Squire of Yes, (a British bass guitarist and group), maintained that he could perceive a difference of 1 millisecond when they recorded. Please don’t think I am suggesting that is the case, rather making the point that Chris felt and believed he could.


Listening to older session musician friends talk about other highly accomplished session musicians, (all of which were featured on a host of No 1 and Top Ten Hits), I have repeatedly noticed the word “feel” comes up time and again in regard to what made them exceptional.

Timing and feel appear to be inextricably interlinked, quite different and often confused. It seems great musicians have an intuitive sensitivity, a highly developed, inner awareness for both, in regard to such matters.


At times, I have over-dubbed a recording, played absolutely perfectly, but immediately, re-recorded the over dub, when to all intents and purposes there appeared to be no need whatever, to do so.

I believe it was this sense, this relationship between timing and feel, that I believe was actively involved in me intuitively sensing ideally the need to do that. I felt the need to do that without knowing precisely why.

Probably, the timing of everything else on the track was involved. Possibly a very tiny amount of recording system latency was involved, although the way the studio was set up, provided for zero latency for tracking additional layers.

This has always been extremely important for me, so something that I have given great attention to for years. I think it’s a very complex subject, too few really understand.  I don’t pretend to, but do the best I can, every way I possibly can.


When Cliff Richard was making a very successful recording produced by Bruce Welch, which re-launched his career, at one point Bruce became very agitated indeed.

Something was wrong but he couldn’t put his finger on what it was. So, part by part he got the engineers to slowly and gradually strip down the individual tracks of the recording. Getting more and more frustrated as he still couldn’t discover what was wrong.

It got the point where he was picking up and shaking the near field monitor responsible in absolute frustration at what he knew felt wrong, but simply couldn’t pinpoint. Cliff its fair to write, thought quite poorly of such behaviour, but Bruce always has been a complete perfectionist.

Eventually when everything had been stripped back as far as it could be and listened to repeatedly, in minimised form, eureka, he found it!

A single Hi-Hat tap, that was minutely out of time, with the rest of the track.


To use an analogy.

I think our ears and brains work a bit like our eyes in that we have immediate vision and also our peripheral vision.

Our senses are picking up information all the time from all around, so our brain has to choose and decide what to focus upon and what to ignore.

Although our immediate vison is what our brain usually is focussed upon, at times our peripheral vision will convey something to our minds it will temporarily choose to ignore, for our main focus of attention is elsewhere.

I think that something similar happens with our ears and brains, we know something is not absolutely bang on (our sense of timing is highly acute for localisation from ear to ear), but the main focus for our brains is elsewhere in regard to a performance.

So we know instinctively something is off.  I think that the sense of “feel” my musician friends alluded to in great musicians, is the ability to comprehensively nail all elements of musical form and performance whilst recording, highly efficiently with few takes or even in one. 


I remember George Massenberg mentioning that Linda Ronstandt had torn her headphones from her head in his studio complaining about him making her voice sounding “geeky”. It was latency in his recording system and she blamed him for it!

The salient point, my reason for writing that is, none of us are totally immune from experiencing latency issues, but certain technologies are extremely prone to them.

Thus recording with real instruments, is I feel, the true path to best studio practise.

With the very least possible of problems.

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

Fascinating stuff; thanks everyone.

I might just sell my old BF while it still relatively easy to do so and get the Digiface...

11 (edited by MetalHeadKeys 2021-12-03 00:53:31)

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

Niice!
The DF Usb is rock solid!

@CrispyChips
Thanks a lot for the remark!

Fortunately, I know of Yes and Chris Squire and many of the other Prog Rock giants(Genesis, Camel, ELP etc), so I do believe that Chris Squire could perceive a millisecond of latency! smile

CrispyChips wrote:

Listening to older session musician friends talk about other highly accomplished session musicians, (all of which were featured on a host of No 1 and Top Ten Hits), I have repeatedly noticed the word “feel” comes up time and again in regard to what made them exceptional.

Timing and feel appear to be inextricably interlinked, quite different and often confused. It seems great musicians have an intuitive sensitivity, a highly developed, inner awareness for both, in regard to such matters


I find that this is more apparent, for someone to notice, in songs that have transitions between soft and loud passages, tempo changes and many emotional layers interwined in them! (as usually was the case with 70s prog rock bands)

I believe that the attention to detail and the various emotions that need to be conveyed through a song, are some of the "variables" that lead to the "intuitive sensitivity and highly developed, inner awareness" !!

And as JanThePianoMan has said, truly fascinating stuff!!
Also, thanks for the insights and the stories that you share!!

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

12 (edited by CrispyChips 2021-12-03 16:20:45)

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

Hello MetalHeadKeys! Thank you for your kind and thoughtfully expressed, sensibilities and observations.


Quote: “I do believe that Chris Squire could perceive a millisecond of latency!”


I found your comment extremely interesting as I adhere to scientific evidence in regard to such matters, and have discovered evidence that hearing acuity can be immensely more sensitive to timing differentials, than typical latencies in common audio interface equipment as used by many, would lead one to believe.

Chris’s comments were made to producer Trevor Horn who is another bass player (studied bass with Berkley and a good reader). George Massenburg once recorded drummer Jeff Pocaro, as a test, specifically to see just how good his sense of timing was. He found across the whole of the song they recorded, his timing was adrift, by exactly 1 millisecond.

I have been extremely blessed to have been able to work with many of the world’s top drummers. So, when recording like to have a good drummer. Preferably, someone I know well, have recorded and toured with and like personally. Sometimes, I have found it necessary to overdub drums to a recording made with other finished tracks. Usually because of people’s schedules and who I want on the recording. So, the following, refers to such a situation.

Although the existing tracks sounded great and time wise, fine (this was before click tracks existed). It’s a revealing experience (and perhaps somewhat humbling) to have one of the world’s most accomplished drummers sat in the control room listening to the playback before performing the overdub. Explaining that during the whole of the first verse the tempo of a piece is gradually accelerating to a small degree. Or, that a particular transition between two distinct parts of a song, is out of time. Picking up on everything. Etc. et al.

One of the great things I appreciate about top session players, is that they have mastered the art of telling you what is wrong, without coming across as the slightest bit negative. You know they are helping. Before click tracks existed, it was normal for a music to pick up speed a tiny bit and evidence of good musical interaction. (Click tracks indicate the opposite to me). And the transition he referred to (which your comments reminded me of), involved a piece with a “ballad speed” verse, with a “rock and roll speed” chorus, hence the transition to the second verse, which “felt perfect” but was totally out of time, which the drummer immediately observed and mentioned. None of this was a problem, but you do need an exceptional drummer for that type of overdubbing.

Feel and timing again!


Below an old pal took his new camera into work for a drums overdub.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11zWUJK-sDw



Quote: “I find that this is more apparent, for someone to notice, in songs that have transitions between soft and loud passages, tempo changes and many emotional layers intertwined in them! (As usually was the case with 70s prog rock bands)”


I have certain compositions, one in particular that present a similar situation to the one described above.

This time, between the introduction and the start of the first verse of the song.  Also, at the transition between each chorus and the next verse.

This is because of the "difference in intensity" (not tempo) between the early part of each verse, and the very strong chorus. The last line of the verse featuring a soaring climax, that leads into the resounding chorus.  There has to be a point of transition, a link between the dynamic peaks of the chorus and by comparison, the verses initial trough.

The famous musical arranger Nelson Riddle would teach that as a musical  arranger, you should begin by identifying the “emotional peaks” of a song and “build the song, working from peak to peak”. I strongly identify with such use of the innate dynamic power that resides in music, (so sadly missing in much of today’s renderings). However, the inescapable truth inherent to that interpretive philosophy, is that the “intensity” must find a “release”, and the "point of transition" provides that relaxation to the ear and brain, that cause’s it to actively reengage with the piece anew. Successfully drawing it back into the song again, now, eagerly anticipating a further climax to come.

So, I think your well taken observations are highly astute and do you great credit.


Quote: “I know of Yes and Chris Squire”


I should explain, that from early in my musical career I had the opportunity to work with an extremely wide variety of performers. These encompassed Classical and even State Orchestras, Pop, Middle of the Road, Progressive, Country, Folk, Folk Rock, Rock and Heavy Metal artists and groups.

So, one end of the scale might be a Bach Festival and at the other end, groups like Hawkwind whom I mention because of your username; as the late Ian Kilmister “Lemmy” of Motorhead played bass for them before joining Motorhead, and whom I always found to be a gentleman, as far as I was concerned, contrary to his popular image. 

Often, YES couldn’t actually play their complex composition’s initially, for the purpose of recording. So, they would intensely rehearse, perfect and record the songs, section by section. Then producer/engineer Eddie Offord would edit the long compositions (sometimes one side of an album) together, with great expertise. Eddie came from Advision Studios, so was a master at editing, (advert’s require a lot of it). By the time the album was released, they had mastered performance of the entire work for live performance.

Chris’s Rickerbacker bass was unusual in that it had a very much lower output than is typical to that particular instrument. I’m not sure if that was due to the pickup or the control wiring, but the result seemed to be a brighter, clearer, more distinctive bass sound, that was the sonic hallmark of his playing. The strange thing was, Chris could swap basses from a Rickenbacker to a Fender Jazz and unless you were paying attention, you wouldn’t notice, by the sound.

Evidence if any were needed, that the true character of a musical instruments sound, is really all in the hands of the player.

Or could it be the talent of the sound engineer?

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

Hello CrispyChips!
You are welcome! And thanks, in return, for your kind remarks!

I believe that Jeff Porcaro and Simon Philips could perceive a millisecond of latency, too! smile
Thanks for the video link, as well! Simon Philips had elluded my "radar". What a great player! Just closing his eyes and playing along with such finesse and precision! And feel !

CrispyChips wrote:

The famous musical arranger Nelson Riddle would teach that as a musical  arranger, you should begin by identifying the “emotional peaks” of a song and “build the song, working from peak to peak”. I strongly identify with such use of the innate dynamic power that resides in music, (so sadly missing in much of today’s renderings). However, the inescapable truth inherent to that interpretive philosophy, is that the “intensity” must find a “release”, and the "point of transition" provides that relaxation to the ear and brain, that cause’s it to actively reengage with the piece anew. Successfully drawing it back into the song again, now, eagerly anticipating a further climax to come

Myself, I like to parallelize the process you describe with natural phenomena! How a storm starts, develops and ends(difference in intensity), sea waves, winds etc and their variations(for eg, a strong storm in summer or a gentle rain in autumn).
This seems to fall straight in the "build the song, working from peak to peak" philosophy!

Evidence if any were needed, that the true character of a musical instruments sound, is really all in the hands of the player.

Or could it be the talent of the sound engineer?

Well, the player weaves the magic..Now to make that magic fit in the picture, with it looking to have its own space; that is an artform in itself and the talent of the sound engineer, I think! smile
Also, thanks for mentioning Hawkwind and Lemmy!!

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

When you are playing 3 meters appart you have a latency of 10ms. On a big stage easyly 30ms

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

Quote: “Simon Philips has alluded my "radar".”

His father Sid was a clarinettist band leader and a widely experienced music industry professional.

Simon was playing professionally at the age of twelve in his father’s band and after a few short years playing for Tim Rice and Andrew Lloyd Webber’s “Jesus Christ Superstar” musical and doing session recording for a variety of stage singers he came in contact with.


He took over with the group “Toto” after Jeff Porcaro sadly passed away. Drummers are very important to me and there are two things in particular I like about Simon’s, worth noting.

1. His stunning fills are delivered playing completely in his comfort zone. Precise rhythmic pattern and pace is maintained whilst simultaneously delivering, volcanically explosive, breathtakingly scintillating, highly complex fills.

Simon is totally comfortable within the context of that established pace. That isn’t an accident, but a whole philosophy of approach. On the video using Dave’s little camera mic, Canadian producer David Foster says “it’s laid back, but its great”. A better description would be, “Its great, but he’s laid back!

2. He uses an open-handed technique for using his drum sticks. Different drummer utilise a variety of methods or “grips” for holding their sticks in either hand. “The military grip” for instance.

But Simon (and all the greatest drummers I have worked with) use a technique that allows the stick to hit the drum head, and optimally bounce off it in a manner that maximised its natural resonance. Top Percussionist Eveline Glennie routinely uses a similar technique involving a light touch and grip.

If you look at the mic positions near the drum head’s they are backed off way further than many engineers would place them. This is so the mic will capture the full natural resonance of the drum head. If the mics are close to the rim they will pick up more of the “slap” of the stick on the head. But backed off, the sound is closer to its naturally sounding resonance.

Here’s a great recording that features Simons drumming, you may want to turn the volume up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktRsmHrLHU4


Quote: “thanks for mentioning Hawkwind and Lemmy!!

One of the U.K.’s top music act promoters (and the man that originated all the merchandising, Queen tee shirts etc.) lived in the next street to mine, as we both grew up.

A friend of mine (whom I worked for when I was young) owned the company that sold the majority of concert tickets sold in the area. So, I knew all the concert hall personnel well, and was often present at set up and rehearsals.

I would spend time in the band room with the artists, sometimes playing things to each other,* ** and especially on stage before the concerts whilst everyone was familiarising themselves with the venue, finding out what was what. These could be Classical or Heavy Rock.

Jon Hiseman was a great drummer and his band Colosseum was one I worked with a lot. Usually, I would decide for myself what I wanted to do during the concert. Sometimes sitting next to the sound engineer running the P.A. Sometimes sitting on stage at the side, watching the performance intimately closely, or watching the concert from an audience seat. I sat and watched Free, (All Right Now).

Sometimes, I would discreetly leave as soon as the concert started if the loudness of the concert was extremely excessive (Black Sabbath come to mind), or the artists not particularly of interest to me. (Marc Bolan comes to mind).  In those days, people like “The Rolling Stones” would play local college balls.

*When the Beatles performed here, they hung about before the concert, jamming with local musicians, also on the bill.

**When Traffic appeared at a local concert in a small hall, quite unexpectedly Eric Clapton turned up with his guitar and jammed with his buddies through the concert.


To give you an idea of how “plugged in” my promoter friend was, one day he got a worried phone call from the largest concert hall in the area.

In a couple of days, a group who were the hottest act in the country with a chart-topping hit were due to play there, but because of illness had suddenly cancelled.

In those days there were no ways of contacting all the people who had brought tickets, and the concert venue owners were terrified that once the audience arrived and were told the group would not be performing, there would be a dangerous riot.

Based upon the groups following, they were afraid the concert venue would have its seats torn out, and the palatial venue completely trashed. If they had to issue refunds to everyone, it would prove an expensive loss in revenue, and of course if trashed, the venue closed.

So, they turned to my colleague for help. “Can you find us a great alternative act, that this audience would deem to be an acceptable alternative, so we have some kind of show to appease them with.”  As they were really desperate, my friend said “he would see what he could do, to leave it with him.”

Two days later, at the night of the concert, the announcer explaining the act the audience expected would not be performing, initially received a lot of angry shouts and boos. But they soon quietened when they were told an alternative act would be performing, and they were asked to give them a fair hearing and reasonable chance.

The alternative act was almost completely unknown, but they completely blew the entire audience away. Afterwards everyone seemed to feel they had a great night, privileged to hear a phenomenal new act breaking into the big time. The concert venue was delighted, as not a single person asked for a refund of their ticket, and the building hadn’t been trashed at all, not a single seat was torn out!


There was an all-night wine merchant across the road from the venue, and my promoter friend went over and bought a bottle of Champagne to give to the group, along with an envelope with the money they had earned for their night’s performance. Everyone was in such good spirits.

The lead singer was palpably moved, they were not used to receiving bottles of Champagne after they played, and were over the moon at receiving £25 to share between them all. For them, this major concert venue was their first step up to the big time, so a fantastic opportunity, quite apart from the money and Champagne.

The lead singer told my friend: “You are the best manager I have ever worked for I will never, ever forget you! Thank you so much for all you have done for us.”

It was Robert Plant and his Band.

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

Thanks for yet another great link!
I 've done my homework for Simon Philips since yesterday! smile
Watched a bunch of interviews, re-visited some TOTO live shows, all the while wondering why I hadn't checked who replaced Jeff Porcaro!

CrispyChips wrote:

A better description would be, “Its great, but he’s laid back!

Ha,ha! That 's totally, spot on!

Now, I have to do some homework on Gordon Giltrap!! smile


CrispyChips wrote:

If you look at the mic positions near the drum head’s they are backed off way further than many engineers would place them. This is so the mic will capture the full natural resonance of the drum head. If the mics are close to the rim they will pick up more of the “slap” of the stick on the head. But backed off, the sound is closer to its naturally sounding resonance.

Thank you for this great advice!

About Led Zeppelin..What can I say? Thank you very-very much for the inside story, and for your posts in general!!

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

Quote: “About Led Zeppelin..”

To properly appreciate Led Zeppelin, I believe it’s helpful to know a little about the background of the individuals in the group.

Singer Robert Plant had been involved in a Birmingham area blues group that featured Jon Bonham on drums. A number of well-known heavy rock groups including Black Sabbath, came from that region.

Jimmy Page and John Paul Jones had been very active as extremely successful recording session players in London, playing on a breath-taking number of recordings, from a very wide array of artists, in lots of different styles and genres.

In an earlier post, the complexities of overdubbing drums to a recorded track were described and I mentioned a favourite drummer friend, who featured on most of my own productions.
His name was Bobby Graham and Jimmy Page, like me would at times, stay overnight at Bobby’s place in Edmonton, (where Clem Cattini also hailed from) so were pretty friendly and got on well together, as you can imagine.

Bob and Jim were part of a very successful, elite recording session group of rhythm section players, (rather similar to the American wrecking crew). Jimmy Page, Big Jim Sullivan, Bobbie Graham, John Paul Jones, Brian Odgers, Arthur Greenslade, (as well as Vic Flick, Clem Cattini, Nicky Hopkins and others like Herbie Flowers as the line-up could vary session to session), who between them played on a massive number of hit recordings, in a wide variety of musical styles.

Sometimes big Jim might be used, sometimes little Jim got the job, Little Jim had a fantastic feel for blues, rock, standards and pop playing, but didn’t sight read. Big Jim could sight read (that’s a whole other story) and excelled at standard’s, pop, country and rock and roll styles.

If a producer hired them both, dependant on the musical genre, and whether sight reading was required, they would swap around who played lead and who played rhythm, for the best result for the specific music.

So, producers found using the combination of both players provided for a top performance, for the majority of recordings that were needed to be made, as an album would feature a variety of styles.

The thing about Jimmy was that once he had heard the music he had to play on, he knew what he was going to do, and that would be locked in his head.

He was superbly creative in delivering exactly what the specific music required.


That innovative quality of creativity is inherent to all top line session musicians, but Jim had it in absolute bucket loads. Which I think is why he was always so against sight reading and still is to this day. It would have cramped his creativity.

Producers like Shel Talmy, would often hire backup session players, like Little Jim, or Bobby if the group being recorded insisted on playing on their record, and so Jimmy Page was there for a Pete Townsend recording of the Who, just in case. (But wasn’t needed).


You would be amazed at the huge number of different top artists they created hit recordings for!

After so many years of this, Jimmy Page got tired of playing musak and wallpaper or elevator music.

I think things came to a head for him when a huge number of musicians were in the studio for a series called “Gonks Go Beat”.

He really wasn’t interested in making that type of music, any more by that point. After the session, Bob asked him “How did you find it Jim? It looked like you were playing up a storm.”

“I turned my amp off” Jim replied, knowing with such a lot of musicians it wouldn’t make much difference as there were three guitarists on that session. To me it’s an indication he was now determined to move in a new direction altogether.

With Jim on guitar and John on bass, to form a group they needed a singer and a drummer. Jim had a couple of drummers already in mind. But Robert knew Jon Bonham, and after hearing him, Jim felt he had that heavy sound that was an important part of the direction in which he was moving. If you will forgive a cliché “the rest is history”.


Although these busy session players, were often doing three or more sessions every day.
Sometimes they would have an hour or so free and listen to the playback of their recordings in the control room.

During such occasions Jim or Bob would watch, what and how producers and engineers did things in the studio, as they mixed the sound. Discretely, quite separately, they would ask a question here and there, and over time grasped enough to finally acquire the confidence to launch out into a producing roles for the first time.

So, Jimmy Page formed Led Zeppelin and went into producing.

Bobby Graham joined French band leader, club and restaurant owner Eddie Barclays record label Barclay Records as a producer in Paris.

Quincy Jones was the labels musical director and George Massenburg was the labels engineer. Whilst Stephan Grappelli, Sacha Distell and Jimi Hendrix (a guitar player) were amongst those featured on the label.

Tony Meehan drummer of the Shadows, also went into producing and recorded hits for Jet Harris. Tony was voted “Best Drummer in the U.K.”  by readers of the New Musical Express following their hit Diamonds, with its drum solo!

Actually, Bobby Graham played on the track with a new, stainless steel, Premier snare. Then, he was used to everyone else getting the fame, for he played drums on the Dave Clark Five’s hits, like “Bits and Pieces” and “Glad All Over” and that knocked The Beatles off Number 1 in relative anonymity!

Before Ringo came along and seeking a new drummer, Brian Epstein offered Bob the seat with The Beatles, but he turned it down as The Beatles weren’t well known nationally at the time. Got his leg pulled a lot about that!

Here’s a few links, the drummers on "Gonks Go Beat" are Ronnie Verrell, Bobby Graham and Ginger Baker, Alan White, etc. et al.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CycDqx2-qc0

Some of Bob’s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5efZ5DJBwc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=My5YMXGbq_o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EipdAjhImrc


Vinark posted a comment earlier and I’m not sure if it was simply a statement, or that he wanted a response to it? Either way I’m happy!

In any case, there are a number of reasons I bought my RME rig in preference to that of other manufacturers.

Transparent Mic Pre’s. Rock Solid Drivers, Perceptual Zero Latency and Unparalleled Customer Support!

But Zero Latency is one of RME's major benefits, and whatever the extra cost over lesser products.

That alone, is worth the price, to music makers!

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

So glad you chose RME and we get to learn all these details, about the early Rock music scene, in the forum! smile
Very much appreciated!!

I know about Birmingham, because of Black Sabbath!
Read a lot about rock music 's roots in magazines, artists' interviews, videos, documentaries; wherever I could lay my hands on!

Now, to comment on your links(thanks, again):

"Gonks go beat". What a blast!! All those syncopated rhythms, precision and flow! This video, I think, truly shows the level of the scene's musicianship at the time!!

"Dave Clark Five". I didn't know of this band! Have to research for sure!
"Jet Harris & Tony Meehan - Diamonds". Didn't know, either! Really liked this one! Have to research, too!
"You really got me". That's a classic!

CrispyChips wrote:

...Jimi Hendrix (a guitar player)

Ha,ha! Nice one!!

Really, I have to research on all the musicians, you mentioned!

And a small contribution, from my part.
One of my favorite drummers, which I think you 're going to appreciate, too! (and everyone else, reading)

His name is Mark Zonder, here from a Fates Warning live show:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUERwmjS1bI  (especially, after 3:00 min)

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

19 (edited by CrispyChips 2021-12-11 15:31:55)

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

Quote: “Very much appreciated!!”

It’s a pleasure, for I very much appreciate the helpful guidance and assistance I have received from this forum moderator’s and the regular contributors alike, whose names we are all familiar with, that make the RME forum a prince amongst such symposiums.

At the Black Sabbath concert, I was with the sound engineer with the mixing console, right at the back of the concert hall. Never the less, the unprecedented level of volume was painful to my ears, and I quickly left, to protect my hearing.

Its great you are enjoying and getting so much out of music, so thank you for the link to one of your favourite drummers and their music. I believe they were an opening act for Lemmy’s Motorhead at one point, amongst other major groups of that genre. When I first saw the clip, for some reason I was reminded of the late Carlos Vegas. A great session player.


In general, I have always preferred drummers that have a degree of technical training in the rudiments of drumming (Bobby received his from Ronnie Verrell). Who have worked in Big Bands.

The reason for this, is the huge variety of complex patterns encountered in standards and dance music, especially Latin American rhythms, fast paced hot jazz, arrangements interspersed with powerful stabs of brass, and the requirement to be able to play at any dynamic weight.

With whispering delicacy and finesse, with accomplished technique at tremendously fast pace and with an accompanying toolbox of highly creative musical chops for every occasion.  Bob would play at Ronnie Scott’s with jazz trios, yet sound engineers never had any problem recording him as he would deliver a solid level to the mics for classic rock tracks.

Here’s a clip of legendary session drummer Steve Gadd from his days with the US Army Band. Note the use of the shank of his stick on the ride cymbals rather than the tip. Part of his distinctive sonic signature. If you love dogs, Steve's your man!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3JTUyu3IFM


It appears to me that many amateur and some professional recordists today have issues recording drummers. Especially with overbearingly dominant hi hats and cymbals.

Although they work hard to obtain a good balance, it always seems an elusive struggle. In my opinion the actual reason for this is not because of the sound engineer. The drummer they are attempting to record, lacks a proper sense of “internal balance".

People think of a drum kit as an instrument. It is not. Rightly understood it is a collection of widely differing musical instruments, and every one of each of them requires a level of instinctively skilled dynamic control that is commensurate with producing a properly balanced sound across the entire breadth of the kit.

A great drummer, will have a good “internal balance” that acts like a mixing console within them, enabling them to produce a completely well-balanced sound, from the entire kit.

Thus, a great drummer can be recorded well, with a single well placed mic, if necessary.


With your kind indulgence, if possible, in future I would like to address the issue of latency on large stages that vinark mentioned.

Explaining the factors at work and practical methodologies utilised to deal with them.

Latency is in fact a far larger topic than the majority of recordists appreciate.

So, bring the thread back to that subject and explore it in more detail.

Discussing orchestral, big band, jazz, pop and rock stage latency.

Understanding it and dealing with it recording too.


In order to achieve that, I would like you to consider that although we are culturally influenced to think about many matters in narrowly focussed, extremely specific ways in any given era.

Things can be thought about differently, be actually enacted differently, and never the less tremendous success be achieved.

To open our minds to consider thinking differently, I would like to begin by considering the control room of a specific recording studio.

The late Gud Dudgeon owned it, later Jimmy Page and Chris Rea too. It's Christmas soon!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ncBhlA1Kmys



Gus Dudgeon was a person I was privileged to learn a great deal from, and owned a good studio nearby, a short drive from my home.

Sadly, he is no longer with us as he and his wife died very tragically. But I am including a link, explaining the acoustical approach in his studio.

It rather went totally against the perceived wisdom of the day, so in many senses, accords with some of the comments in this thread, that might be questioned.

I hope it will enable those interested enough to read it, greater insight and encourage them to maximise the best possible use of whatever facilities they have at their disposal.

http://www.themillrecordingstudio.com/acoustics.html


Note the importance of reverb tails.

Flatness of room response, and the typical expectations of the human ear and brain being met. Especially note the following:

“The monitors at the Mill sounded wonderful, and many engineers recorded there with no subsequent alteration of tonal balance needed. Gus's mixes were often cut flat or with half a dB here and there by Ian Cooper at The Townhouse. So the tapes mixed there appeared to show an accurate acoustic balance.

The explanation for the fact that the opposing Eastlake and The Mill acoustic concepts both appear to have worked lies, I think, in the ability for the human ear/brain to notice room reverberation and take it into account. The fact that the response curve in The Mill control room follows the reverb time graph suggests that the loudspeakers were in actual fact producing a flat response, and the analyser was showing a build up of frequencies that had a longer reverb time. Somehow human hearing seems to adjust for this.”


Gus Dudgeon’s recordings will be familiar to you.

If you view and scroll  the photo gallery you will note the many windows and walls about the control room, and what will seem to many, a lamentable lack of acoustical treatment.

http://www.themillrecordingstudio.com/gallery.html


I trust this will of assistance to you, be thought provoking, mind opening and wish you all every possible success in all your recording endeavours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gus_Dudgeon

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

Quote: “When you are playing 3 meters appart you have a latency of 10ms. On a big stage easyly 30ms”


*
The human brain processes both visual and auditory information simultaneously.

However, different forms of stimuli, reach the senses at differing speeds and are processed by the relevant neural circuits accordingly.

This leaves a problem, because as you know, the speed of light is faster than the speed of sound, but events often perceived as synchronous.

Accordingly, the brain applies an amount of latency, as is required to synchronise what we see and hear, so usually, they are perceived by us as simultaneous.

This allows us, in a general sense, to properly interpret life. For as you may be aware, by nature, we instinctively tend toward thinking in terms of cause and effect.

So, according to scientific studies, our brains have an inherent adaptive flexibility, that facilitates and enables us to properly interpret what our senses are momentarily experiencing.

We are utilising latency in our brains all the time.

But don’t even know it!


Neither is it a problem to use, indeed, it is advantageous to us.

Similarly, our eyes receive stimuli upside down on our retina’s, which our brains reverse so that we can function properly in the world.


When our brain processes different stimuli, it appears that whatever is captivating the central focus of our attention, appears to dominate our perception.

Thus, beyond a certain point, a degree of latency might be clearly apparent to someone in a relaxed state, listening to music, wholly focussed, concentrating on it, with their eyes closed.

Watching the movie of a live concert where a telescopic lens has focused upon a close up of a singer and we determine they are lip synching to a pre-recorded track is another example, but not intrinsic to our purely natural abilities.

However, watching fantastic musicians delivering an exhilarating stage performance. With brilliant musicianship, physical action and bright lights. Our inherent interpretive, compensatory mental agility, usually adjusts to such different situations.

Dominated by other stimuli, we are far less likely to notice, any such latency. To a substantive degree, our brains adjust for such changes in our environmental situation. A colleague a mastering engineer from a famous record label, shared how his mentor demonstrated the differences between the same live recording mixed for two outcomes, when he first started out in film work.

The first was a straightforward musical stereo recording mixed from the record label, whilst the second, had been specifically mixed to a picture. With the video switched off, it was an absolute no brainer that the record labels mix was far more engaging, superior in every way. However, with the video on, the mix performed to picture, completely trounced the straight audio mix. The reason for this, is fundamentally outlined above.


Perhaps you have seen sheet music with a tempo mark, or a click track both of which utilise a precise Beats Per Minute.

However, reading a score with traditional Italian tempo indications and looking at those on a metronome. We find there is an extremely wide variation of tempos grouped together, all equally correct to the tempo indication, but all with differing Beats Per Minute.

The essential point being that conductors have to take into account not only the composer’s intention, but interpret that compositional intention with regard to the acoustical environment in which the composition is being performed, to optimise its musical coherence.

That environment will vary from concert hall to concert hall, and the ears and brains of musicians and audience alike, compensate to a large degree for such factors, so that perceptually, we properly interpret the performance, in a manner with which we can fully appreciate it.

I have conducted in rectangular, square, circular, oval, domed, half domed and half domed either end buildings and my home city we even have a D shaped concert hall. They all have their singularly peculiar challenges.  So how we address those challenges is next.

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

**
So, lets think about the worst-case scenario, a top orchestra on a huge, wide stage.

Conductors urge even the finest orchestras not to play behind their beat, but they often continue to lag and some have reputations for it. The amount of latency varies in different situations, but it is almost universal.

Skilful conductors learn to manipulate their orchestras to overcome this phenomenon in an ingenious variety of ways. But often struggle to make finely nuanced tempo adjustments, when the orchestra and their baton are not fully aligned.

A single player might eagerly attempt to consciously coincide with the baton’s tip, but the unyielding group momentum of their section becomes an instinctively restraining influence. Arresting their better or poorer judgement, dependent upon your point of view.

Strangely, musical transitions and endings often involve a powerful group influence on orchestral momentum, actively delineating and governing the pace of a tempos change. And this in many cases, can be somewhat remotely connected, to the actual movements of the baton.

You may think this could be frustrating for a conductor, but can be equally difficult for leaders of sections, as the rear of their sections may lag behind them, and the front players often need to allow for this.

Generally, Low and Loud Sections are the main culprits.


Imagine a line of cars at traffic lights. The lights change and one by one they move forward.

Great orchestra develop a form of “group bonding” within sections and between sections, so that they ideally move as one.

They can move in precise synchronisation to the conductors beat, some music demands it, Stravinsky for instance. But most great works don’t and as conductors change more often than the majority of players in the orchestra, they develop a “group feel” in “reaction time”.


“There’s safety in numbers.”

“Bird of a feather, flock together.”


So, if you are a great conductor, how do you handle this?

I always admired Herbert Von Karajan and the Berliner Philharmonika.

How tight and together their performance always was. As someone very involved with conducting at the time, it amazed me that a conductor could shut their eyes for most of the concert, never giving any musician a clear cue, and everything could sound, so together.

How it worked was as follows. Because of the very spiritual manner in which Von Karajan conducted, often with eyes closed, the leaders of each section of the orchestra would watch each other extremely closely indeed. Far more closely than would ever be deemed normal for such musicians. 

Because they watched each other so meticulously, over time they could anticipate and read each other’s intentions extremely well. Were incredibly well rehearsed, often earning copious amounts of overtime to ensure perfection on recordings. Utilising sectional line of sight, to deliver their superlative quality of performance.


When asked about this, Von Karajan would state that looking at his orchestra, giving them clear cues was the very worst thing he could do.

That doesn’t make sense until you understand that his method of conducting, forced the players in his orchestra to watch one another much more closely, than orchestra members typically would.

To me they sounded better, than anyone else in the world!


Nikisch, Tchaikovsky’s favourite, a father of modern conducting, would conduct with horrendously vague gestures, so mysterious, that orchestral musicians, wouldn’t dare to begin.

Like Karajan he was conducting the music, not the orchestra. Nikisch believed an overly clear beat produced an ugly sound from an orchestra. So I'm wondering? Are you standing on your head right now?

Because the latency you perceived as a huge problem and disadvantage, is now, by masters of their craft, mystically transformed into a positive attribute. A facilitator and enabler of more beauteous, more musical sound!

Conducting the music, as opposed to delineating beats, encourages musicians to actively utilise, develop and refine their listening skill; their unified sensitivity playing together, which is usually how a chamber orchestra, typically works best.


There are many great conductors who think like this.

Sir Adrian Boult was one, his baton stick, often referred to by musicians as his baffle stick!

A while ago, on my birthday, a company I had an interest in, sponsored a concert conducted by Valery Gergiev in London with the London Symphony Orchestra.

He certainly thinks being super clear with the baton doesn’t always get what he wants and has deliberately ditched some of the ideas, inherent to his schooled training, because of this.

This doesn’t mean every conductor with a clear beat will get a bad sound. Conducting is like riding a horse, it’s an organic relationship and often, a particular work will dictate if a clear beat is essential, as with some modern works.

However, a conductor conducts, a sense of being possessed by the music is absolutely crucial, as it leads to a totally irresistible conviction in the orchestra to play its heart out and project the powerful emotion of that music, profoundly reaching a deeply moved audience. 

In regard to the audience of the concert I mentioned, just prior to the free, outdoor concert in the heart of London, they were schooled a little, in conducting. The necessary accented beats in the complex classical composition they were about to hear carefully explained. Amazingly, the huge audience of people were, after just a few short attempts able to respond, to the conductors beats, clapping on the necessary accented beats, in perfectly simultaneous union. Not bad considering where it took place outdoors. Which involved a heck of a lot of latency to deal with!

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

***

How about a Big Band performing on a medium size stage?

Big Band music overwhelmingly features steady rhythmic patterns common to classic standards, in popular music culture.

Typically, conductors are relatively close to players, indicating clearly defined beats with tight movements, the rhythm section an engine to the entire ensemble. Once established, the tempo is effortlessly maintained.

Highly complex rhythms and dynamically powerful, accented stabs will at times occur, but generally, the normal order of business is adequately catered for well, with an initial, crisply distinct, clearly defined indication of beat.

The rhythm section provides a solid musical core, over which lines of players in instrument sections perform, close together, shoulder to shoulder. The fundamental dominance of constant rhythm to such musical styles and the intimate proximity of musicians playing identical instruments, with a clear visual beat when needed, provides all that is required. Nullifying any negative issues of latency across the stage.

If sectional group bonding occurs with orchestras, the very best musicians in the Big Bands musicians, take that group bonding to another level altogether.

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

****
How about a jazz trio, quartet or sextet?

With respect, there is a fallacy in the false assumption in the implicit presupposition that musicians interact, solely with their ears alone.

One thing I learnt from the late Al Schmitt, who recorded a lot of great jazz artists who were totally “in the pocket” as regards to timing was concerned. 

Was of the importance of laying out the positions of the musicians, in the studio, in relation to each other. The importance, of clear lines of sight, between the musicians.

Use gobos to prevent sound spill and control mic bleed, (although mic bleed can be your friend, like sonic glue, cementing a sound stage), but none the less, ensure direct lines of sight between the core rhythm section musicians.

When Al started his career, mixing consoles and equalisers didn’t exist and there were few microphones available. So careful seating arrangements for the musicians gave the balance of sound with critical mic positioning. The odd change of a mic, providing equalisation.

Remarkably, as a very young man he was none the less able to produce a hit recording using this method, for the “Mercer Ellington Band” (Duke Ellington’s son, booked in under the name of Mercer. Al had no idea who was coming in, and Duke Ellington turned up to watch.


The salient point, musician positioning and clear lines of sight are paramount


A practical example.

The kind of music I sometimes compose often features the phrase “rit.” in the score.

It depends on the piece but in other words, the music is not mechanical in beat, it breathes, momentarily in time, taking up the tempo again in a natural manner.

For emphasis, it slows slightly, quickly re-establishing the tempo at particular times. How do you handle those moments? In a typical rhythm section, piano, bass and drums are crucial.

By and large, the piano is the instrument of central importance within the ensemble. Therefore, if you carefully position the bassist and the drummer, so they have a clear line of sight to the pianists left hand.

As the music slows or quickens, observing the pianist left fingers as they depress the bass keys during those important changes in pace, mean it’s possible for the key rhythm section instruments, to be absolutely locked, tightly in time together.

Literally at the speed of light.

In general, the rhythm section provides a foundation from which and over which other instruments, take their timing cue. 

The speed of light, works quite well.

At 300,000 kilometres per second, latency doesn’t appear to bother them.

That doesn’t work for blind musicians and I have been involved with some at times.

But in my experience of them, they usually have a superior hearing acuity to sighted people.

Their sensitive awareness of timing and pitch incredibly heightened, as compensation for lack of sight.

The salient point is that certain individuals for definite reasons demonstrate a far superior acuity than is normal.

Evelynne Glennie is profoundly deaf, but can tune her instruments to pitch, sensing minute vibrational differences in her fingertips.

I follow the science in regard to such matters, noting that particular individuals, can provably demonstrate, exceptionally superior abilities.

Here’s Evelynne Glennie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IU3V6zNER4g


I used to like the Motown arrangers and musicians.

Most of which would play with jazz bands in clubs all night, get some sleep and spend the rest of the day playing on recording sessions.

I suppose what I’m really getting at is that musicians that are playing all the time, become extremely sensitive to fundamental elements in musicality to a degree that others are incapable of.

Those that play together most of the time, develop a “group feel” on stage for timing and the rhythmic pocket. Recording or on stage, they have a superlative sense of timing, and feel, for what they are playing.

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

*****
My drummer friend mentioned earlier would pick me up every day in his red Inspector Morse Jaguar, to take us to work. Producer Shel Talmy (The Kinks, The Who, David Bowie etc.) described him as "the greatest drummer the UK has ever produced".

As far as is known, he was the first drummer in history to ever call for cans on a recording session (and Al Schmitt mentioned earlier the first engineer to ever use a mic on a bass drum).

The drummer wouldn’t have his drums in the cans, just the singer, as its essential not to use drum fills that cut across the singer’s vocal lines, especially in their pickup bar.

But whenever the singer left a space, he would often instinctively place a fill.

So, when there was a lot of musicians, cans really helped.

As in this recording he played on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CN4OiYMgQT0

Or this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ye8KvYKn9-0


So, what is the latency of a headphone speaker in close proximity to the eardrum?

That would probably be the most relevant question to this thread. To which I would answer, it depends.

The RME systems excel in this area, whereas other digital recording systems vary greatly in regard to latency. Not so much with analogue consoles using typical studio arrangements I have found that work well. 

If you view the earlier recording session with Simon overdubbing drums, he’s using cans and not simply following the timing of the recorded track but also its “feel”. (See his final comments in the control room after the session).

Recording in various studios around the world, you will find that in certain places, the height above sea level, humidity and general environment, causes substantive differences in air density, altering the very speed of sound itself. All the mics you know so well, suddenly sound a bit different from what you might expect.

That can be somewhat disconcerting, but close micing and a good recording system manage latency well.

This is the point about all the recordings above.

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

******
As far as stages are concerned, the usual floor foldback monitors have largely been replaced with the ubiquitous in ear monitoring which is fairly standard everywhere now.

However, personally, I like a backline of amplifiers etc. A study presented to the Audio Engineering Society called “The Effects of Latency on Live Sound Monitoring” found that performers were more forgiving of latency, when using floor wedges over in-ear monitors.

To my way of thinking, that plays into the sort of theorising I began with using Gus Dudgeons studio as an example. The ear/brain relationship regarding perception, appears to actively compensate for the differing situations in which we find ourselves and we adapt.

Latency in live performance occurs naturally from the speed of sound. It takes sound about 3 milliseconds to travel 1 meter. Small amounts of latency occur between performers depending on how they are spaced from each other and from stage monitors if these are used.

This creates a practical limit to how far apart the artists in a group can be from one another. Stage monitoring extends that limit, as sound travels remarkably quickly through the cables that connect stage monitors.

My preference is for large side monitor stacks in addition to typical floor monitors, with a sound engineer to the side of the stage with a large mixer, responsible simply for foldback duties.

My experience conducting with such systems in large concert halls has been of having the sensation of being bathed in sound from every direction. Including vibration through the floor.

So, as with the cans mentioned previously, in such situations my experience has been that stage and recording latency isn’t a problem, but that can be system dependant.

As previously stated, there is an underlying false assumption inherent to the quote far above.

That musicians simply play, utilising the facility of their hearing alone.

Without the aid of any other of their senses.

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

*******

At the speed of light, 5 milliseconds of delay correspond to a physical distance of about 1,500 kilometres.

So as far as I am concerned, clear, direct lines of sight essential to the issue of latency.


However.

I think it's tremendously helpful to differentiate between:

The average non musician’s border of sensitivity to latency.

The mainstream musician’s border of sensitivity to latency.

The exceptional musician’s border of sensitivity to latency.

I believe it entirely reasonable, and true to my experience, to conclude that the difference between the first and second cases, can in extraordinary case’s, be equalled by the difference between the second and third cases.

I’ve studied documentation that suggests in general, mainstream musical performers can detect latency in a third of the time in milliseconds, that non-musicians can.

Most musicians start to worry about latency, when it’s begins to mess with the ability to sing or play on top of the beat or behind it, and things feel sluggish.

But there’s a world of improvement between that and the ideal of perceived zero latency.


An Audio Engineering Society paper “The Effects of Latency on Live Sound Monitoring” also found that each instrument has different tolerances for latency.

If a guitarist playing into a tube amp with no digital processing stands over two metres in front of his amp, he will experience seven milliseconds of latency, because it takes that long for the sound to travel two point four metres, from the amplifier’s speaker to his ear.

If he stands five metres in front of the amp on a big stage, he'll get fifteen milliseconds of latency. Personally, I've not heard anyone complain of latency due to this But usually with me musicians are close to their amps and the stage monitors are close enough.

But I remember when we were involved with a concert featuring the group Free (All Right Now) where each musician had a back line of three, two-hundred-watt Marshall amplifiers in tall stacks. Each firing eight speakers.

They also had a Marshall P.A. for the singer and a piano for the song “My Brother Jake”. Paul Kossof playing guitar, stood directly in front his line of stacked Marshalls, seemingly with his ears incredibly close to the speakers.

Their bass player spent most of the concert with one foot on top of the wedge floor monitor, with three Marshall stacks behind him. It’s funny what comes to mind.

Was this for the purpose of eliminating latency? The essential visuals are below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wiF6b4rxno


Yet here is Brian May performing the same piece, a very long way from his amplifiers and walking out on a platform amongst the audience.

But keep looking, and notice the multitude of wedged monitors facing him. Being able to hear yourself and the key instruments all musicians rely upon is absolutely necessary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvQvkNUBsmY


So, latency can be dealt with sufficiently well enough, regardless of the stage situation.

And our ears and brain cooperate and aid us, in achieving that end.

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

Hello, CrispyChips!!

I was about to reply to your last post since two days ago, and then I saw your today's posts!
Forgive me for not replying, earlier, but I was not at home for the weekend and I don't have a "smartphone".

I, also, had to research your links in the morning(so I could have a reference), then left and I just got home!
You have covered everything to great extent and some questions I had, regarding timing and orchestras, are allready answered!

I only have personal experience with rock and metal bands, up to six people, playing both keyboards and guitar(I 'm a keyboardist, first).
In that context, we all get the timing through floor monitors, as you described! So, I was aware of this kind of small latency!

Now, I have to research your today's links and I might come up with a question or two! smile

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

Hello, CrispyChips!
Happy new year and best wishes to you and everyone else, reading!!

After a hectic month, I finally found some free time to post back some of my thoughts regarding our subject!
And this thread has been on my mind, all this time! smile

Regarding Gus Dungeon's studio,
Yes, I was familiar with many of the recordings, but I was not aware of the actual studio facilities!
The liveliest strings sound, I 've ever heard! I like to categorize this type of timbre as "journeying"(the mood they create)

What a great place to record! I would have loved to have listened to some metal music(with orchestral elements) recorded there!
It' s a pity that it 's not a studio, anymore..

You have covered everything so extensivelly, that I don't have anything to add.
One question that came to my mind, regarding orchestras, is this:
Based on your experience, have you noticed different pitch tunings affecting the "tightness" of the respective orchestras?

I 'm asking this, because through my own experimentations, I 've noticed that the lower the tuning pitch, the easier it becomes for a passage to be played in the same click track. It "feels" and sounds "slower". So I would guess that this affects the perception of latency, as well !

Again, thank you for all the knowledge shared, and thanks to your friends, as well, for all the great music!!

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

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Latency/line of sight issues under unusual circumstances.

Thinking about this thread over Christmas, I was reminded of a funny conversation between me and Bob, regarding hit session player Clem Cattini, who lives round the corner from him.

Clem, who you have probably never heard of, played on 43 U.K. No 1 chart hit recordings, just to give some context of what is being discussed hereabouts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clem_Cattini 

One Christmas, Clem had a call regarding an emergency situation.

At that time Shirley Bassey was at the very height of her fame and had been given a peak viewing slot, of an hour’s live programme, to be broadcast at Christmas.

She usually performed and toured with her own Musical Director and Band but unfortunately their usual drummer had gone down with a bad bout of influenza and couldn’t play, so Clem got the call.

(Normally fixers who arranged musicians for recording sessions would never disclose who the artists involved in a session were, but this was a special case, at Christmas and at very short notice, hence explanation was necessary).

So Clem goes off to the T.V. studios, and being a great drummer, everything went very smoothly, for number after number at the rehearsal. Suddenly, the musical notation he was following, came to a blank section where he was to play a long solo fill, with no indication, as to what was required?

He did the typical thing, maintaining tempo, embellishing here and there, moving and building towards a climax. Suddenly a brassy female voice screamed down the mic: “what is that drummer doing!”

"Burley chassis", eye balls on stalks, was staring hard in an accusing manner at her Musical Director.  As if he was a nanny in charge of a kindergarten of infants, but unable to control them.

It turned out that Shirley and her usual drummer had a very carefully choreographed section in that piece, which formed an important routine, a normal part of her act.

At that point, cameras closed in on her posterior and other essentially important parts of her anatomy, which she posed with provocative mannerisms, this way and that.

The drummer was required to hit, heavily stressed, syncopated accents in time with the arrival of her backside etc. in those specific positions.

As the drummer was completely unable to see what she was doing, it rather put him at somewhat of a distinct disadvantage.

The problem (caused by lack of line of sight) was amended by discretely placing a monitor near the drums.

Able now to see the close ups of Shirley, Clem was quickly able to musically interpret the choreography.

Providing what was needed to everyone’s satisfaction.


“How did you spend Christmas Clem?” he was asked?

“Playing drums in time with Shirley Bassey’s behind!” Came the intriguing reply!


Sometimes, in the orchestra pit, with a lot of musicians, certainly on musicals I have orchestrated. There have been times when the best, (sometimes the only) answer to latency as well as line of sight issues, is a camera and tv monitor, so the musicians can see a clear indication of the conductors beat.

There are some theatre pits where in order to accommodate the size of orchestra required for the many musicals that in recent years have become so popular, some of the musicians fit into recesses virtually under the stage, so this is a practical solution.

By the way, while I think of it, it’s usually best for pit conductors to reverse the traditional baton movements for the important second beat if the piece is in three quarter time. The tempo setting baton shows up better against dark clothing.

But in one way or another it’s all a matter of practically dealing with stage problems of various forms of latency and line of sight difficulties. These two matters are more often than not, inextricably interlinked.

And latency is a far, far more complex subject than the average recording interface user (who imagines it’s a subject they have total grasp of) is aware.

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

“How did you spend Christmas Clem?” he was asked?

“Playing drums in time with Shirley Bassey’s behind!” Came the intriguing reply!

Haa, ha! Thanks, for yet another great story, CrispyChips! smile
And thanks for the wiki link about Clem Cattini. I saw a lot of familiar names in that list!

CrispyChips wrote:

But in one way or another it’s all a matter of practically dealing with stage problems of various forms of latency and line of sight difficulties. These two matters are more often than not, inextricably interlinked.

Noted, and Thanks!!

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

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Some further thoughts regarding latency/line of sight issues under unusual circumstances.

Although he’s sadly no longer with us, there was a great British musician and composer, called Alan Hawkshaw.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Hawkshaw


One day Brian Bennett, a fine composer, arranger himself and drummer of “The Shadows” fame, got a call from Alan. He had a T.V. Theme recorded and needed a Pedal Tympani for a tiny section of the recorded music.

Unlike Kettle Drum and conventional Tympani, a Pedal Tympani is capable of having its pitch altered dramatically during the sounding of a note. It’s a very particular sonic effect so Alan needed someone with such an instrument.

Brian has one that he used to keep and use to the left side of his drum kit (from his perspective) for certain Shadows numbers. So, he was a natural choice to call for this short recording which involved playing just one single note.

This below is the short 30 second recording.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M2dhD9zR6hk

Here’s the main T.V. Theme which is a brilliant piece of work, usually covered with a voice over as credits roll.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlNqsA3dmaw


So quite a simple recording session one would think?

Unfortunately, the recording needed to be tracked at Alan’s home in his personal recording studio.

The thing was, Alan’s studio was upstairs on the first floor and the staircase angled around half way up it.

Of course, a Pedal Tympani is no small instrument, fairly heavy as instruments go, but also an extremely bulky shape.

It was obvious that they weren’t going to be able to get the Pedal Tympani up Alans’s stairs so they had to think about that for a bit.

They decided to place the Pedal Tympani at the bottom of the stairs, play the single note there, running long mic and headphone cables from the upstairs studio to the bottom of the stairs.

No line of sight, the possibility of latency, however there was one problem they hadn’t anticipated at all. To understand the problem, you have to appreciate that used in this way, the sound of a Pedal Tympani is unusual.

Alan’s small terrier dog thought so, because after Brian had a practise run-through, with headphones on and concentrating on the music for a proper recording, he hit the Pedal Tympani, and with its vampire like teeth, the dog bit straight into the back of Brian’s leg that was operating the pedal. Right into the tendon!

The dog was pretty intelligent, clever enough to determine that the sonic barrage he found so disturbing, only occurred when the man standing at the bottom of the stairs, moved his foot. Hence his bite into the back of the leg that brought the proceedings to a halt.

Well, some medical attention was called for and administered, and with his leg bandaged and the dog removed to somewhere he couldn’t get out of, Brian successfully completed the recording session.

Somewhere I have a great picture of Bobby Graham, Clem Cattini, Brian Bennett and Steve Smith (American Drummer) all huddled together in the control room of a recording studio for the shot.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Smi … _musician)

Anyway, this came to mind and it seems to fit the "thoughts regarding latency/line of sight issues under unusual circumstances" theme.

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

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In segment **** I wrote regarding the importance of lines of sight on stage and in the studio for jazz trios, quartets and quintets etc.

In learning, there is a general principle I try to follow, that is to carefully observe how the very best exponents of a musical genre organise themselves and use that as a basis from which to progress forward.

Eventually, with differencing circumstances arising I will deviate and develop what for me better suits any given situation I am dealing with; but start from a good basis, a solid, proven, foundation, people I respect have found works well for them.

With that in mind you may recall me writing earlier in regard to the importance of lines of sight between the left hand of the keyboard player, the bassist and the drummer and them being closely in sync, especially during moments in the performance where the tempo changes, or that there is a simple ritenuto, for instance.   

Here’s Oscar Peterson, (a pianist) Ray Brown and Ed Thigpen, demonstrating precisely what I explained earlier. Observe their lines of sight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTJhHn-TuDY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7xodWzLbCo

Note how Ray Brown can look straight down the entire keyboards length and the drummer also sees the pianists left hand, readily any time he wants.

This not only works well on stage, without monitoring in concert, but also in the studio where gobos are used to provide a certain amount of separation, and mic bleed used positively as "acoustical glue" to the overall sound.

Of course, in various situations on T.V. and in concerts with different producers and staging, different layouts are at time utilised. The point here is, given the choice, these exemplary exponents of their musical genre and craft, repeatedly chose this one.


Here’s a live Diana Krall recording by Al Schmitt that features the rhythm section musicians, utilising exactly the same line up, for precisely the same reasons.

These are examples are no accident, they are by design and intention planned that way to reduce the typical latency and line of sight difficulties involved in playing tight together.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=70b5-L13B6k

I don’t really know if anyone hereabouts is particularly interested in mics, but you may note the PMZ Mic on the piano lid, in addition to the usual set up of Condensers.


There is another “tight together” factor that I would like to explore with you a little, and it has a direct link to latency.

Al mentioned that when he recorded Dianna’s Grammy winning “Look of Love” album, at one point he needed to adjust a stray bass drum beat. Easy to accomplish in a digital sequencer.

Sometimes, recordists attempt to better align instruments in their digital sequencer, where they are not really as tight together, as they really should be. It happens and as already established, this is a perfectly legitimate process, the best engineers in the world, at times use.


However, like most things in life, this process can be misused, as well as used to good effect.

The problem lays in the ability to almost infinitely stretch out the time domain in the sequencer.

As its possible in this manner to perfectly align all the elements in a mix. Creating an exacting degree of precision in their alignment, that is not found in nature.

Here's the thing, the danger with such an approach is that although it creates an exacting alignment in timing, such precision inevitably results in creating a “masking“ effect.

Where the louder elements of the mix, wholly prevent quieter parts of the mix to be heard.


The salient point being, a constant theme in my contributions throughout this thread.

That latency, always seen as a bad thing by recordists, is actually utilised by top performers, to significantly improve performance in amazingly creative ways.

As you know, much of what enables us to differentiate musical instruments from one another, is enharmonic information (which includes fundamentals), overtones (which don’t), speed of attack and decay, fast transients, etc.et al.

So, when music speeds up and slows down, tempos are established or change, miniscule timing differences between players, (we are talking milliseconds, so easily thought of typical latency values) allow for the human ear to detect harmonic differentials, fast transient attack and decay, slow attack and decay etc.

All this, even when to the human ear, all the instruments are moving together, in perfectly strict time together. 

Latency to a degree once again is found to be our friend rather than our enemy.

A masked mix, perfectly in exact alignment, will sound sterile.

Stripped of its harmonic information.


Its all relative, but that's another story altogether, perhaps the most amazing of all.

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

CrispyChips wrote:

In learning, there is a general principle I try to follow, that is to carefully observe how the very best exponents of a musical genre organise themselves and use that as a basis from which to progress forward.

Eventually, with differencing circumstances arising I will deviate and develop what for me better suits any given situation I am dealing with; but start from a good basis, a solid, proven, foundation, people I respect have found works well for them.

Same here!! Been doing this for years!

CrispyChips wrote:

With that in mind you may recall me writing earlier in regard to the importance of lines of sight between the left hand of the keyboard player, the bassist and the drummer and them being closely in sync, especially during moments in the performance where the tempo changes, or that there is a simple ritenuto, for instance.

Thanks for the links, once more!!
I wasn't aware that this way of positioning had this reasoning behind it! Read it in your previous post and took a mental note!

CrispyChips wrote:

I don’t really know if anyone hereabouts is particularly interested in mics, but you may note the PMZ Mic on the piano lid, in addition to the usual set up of Condensers

I wouldn 't have noticed, if you hadn 't point it out! I 've read about PMZ mics, but haven 't used or seen anyone using one, in person.

CrispyChips wrote:

As you know, much of what enables us to differentiate musical instruments from one another, is enharmonic information (which includes fundamentals), overtones (which don’t), speed of attack and decay, fast transients, etc.et al.

So, when music speeds up and slows down, tempos are established or change, miniscule timing differences between players, (we are talking milliseconds, so easily thought of typical latency values) allow for the human ear to detect harmonic differentials, fast transient attack and decay, slow attack and decay etc.

All this, even when to the human ear, all the instruments are moving together, in perfectly strict time together.

Latency to a degree once again is found to be our friend rather than our enemy.

Could not agree more! And this is the kind of music that I like to listen to!!
I hate productions where everything is perfectly aligned on the grid.

For example, I could never imagine something like this:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3b1xJYCrKDU being time aligned and just "snapped to grid" !! (Magic starts at 1:40) smile

CrispyChips wrote:

Its all relative, but that's another story altogether, perhaps the most amazing of all.

RME=mc^2 ?   smile smile

Thanks, a lot, CrispyChips!!

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

34 (edited by CrispyChips 2022-01-28 20:29:30)

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

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Edited for shortness -

Quote: “have you noticed different pitch tunings affecting the "tightness" of the respective orchestras?” I 've noticed that the lower the tuning pitch, the easier it becomes for a passage to be played in the same click track. It "feels" and sounds "slower". I would guess that this affects the perception of latency”


This covers a lot of ground, not all of it easy to understand, let alone explain.

So, I will comment on orchestral tuning directly, and the latter part separately.

As in the case with Gus Dudgeons studio, using analogies to get our minds opening and our thoughts flowing in a clear direction.

Don’t believe all that is written about orchestra tuning, especially wild claims, unless they are regarding baroque music and instruments, which are indeed a special case.

In a world with many great orchestras, all at times performing and recording similar music, how do you develop a unique selling point, a sonic signature differentiating your orchestra from all the others?

I see the tuning differentials equating to one, two or less than a handful of cents in pitch as being of little consequence, unless a critic is directly comparing C.D. recordings of the same music by different orchestras.

Which of course may well be both the intended audience and indeed the point.


Often it is argued that particular concert halls have or induce by virtue of their design, a dark quality of sound to an orchestra, thus tweaking concert pitch mitigates the negative effect of many halls in which they perform.

I would not argue regarding the brightening and tightening effect of such a transition. Rather I have concern for the additional tonnage of pressures that will be induced on particular acoustical musical instruments, all of which are finely made and some of which are clearly fragilely delicate.

However, I have had the advantage of conducting or performing in an extremely wide range of completely differently shaped buildings. Probably the most difficult of which was Earls Court before an audience in excess of 20, 000 and whose shape presented a great many problems indeed due to both its size and shape.

Fortunately, Pink Floyd, (a British group) had performed there the just week before us, and they had some very good sound people who ensured that some of the uniquely difficult properties of that building were somewhat tamed, leaving in place a better controlled acoustical environment, than would have otherwise been the case.


The point I getting round to is the following.

In my experience, absolutely optimising tempo for the particular venue used for performance, will make far more difference that any minor adjustment by a cent or three, in concert pitch. 

That a musical piece or song can be made to project to the audience as brighter and the band tighter, simply by assiduously nailing the ideal tempo for the acoustics of that particular concert hall, and that typically a slightly faster pace of tempo will be perceived as brighter.

After I left the particular group that played Earls Court, they had me back to orchestrate and conduct a huge later project. So, I was involved with them again under a different role. We had at times played on Army and Air Force Bases for years and reciprocally, the Military allowed us to use their huge buildings to test our rather large P.A.

Now I am standing in front of the group, near the mixing console, and they are performing a song they are well known for. I asked them to perform the number, rather faster than they had ever done previously. The leader, a singer of the group, adamantly resisted this modest request. It did not “feel right” to him. Everything came to a complete impasse.

Happily, there was a quality reel to reel tape machine hooked up to the mixer and so I quite reasonably inquired whether they could record the number as they always performed it, and also perform it at the specific tempo I set for them? They could then determine which was best themselves. It was impossible for them to argue against the reasonableness of this, and of course, felt it would prove them right.

They performed the number twice, including at precisely the tempo I indicated, and we played back both performances through the P.A. into the huge auditorium, kindly provided to by the British Military.  They were completely surprised, blown away by the second performance over the first. The leader didn’t like it, but his singer wife enthused extremely strongly regarding its clear superiority, as did everyone else.


This isn’t about who was right and who was wrong.

Its simply about understanding that a piece of music may be performed advantageously in different auditoriums by adjusting the tempo. It’s about optimising performance.

If you work with American composers, the commonplace practise in notation is for tempo to be indicated by a tempo mark.  The great advantage of this is a precise definition by no less than the composer themselves, of their intended tempo for the composition.

The problem with that, is that the ideal tempo so precisely defined in notation. So clearly indicated, may often not be the ideal tempo for that specific piece of music, in any particular concert hall. Conductor’s, musicians and performers in general, may feel honour bound, obliged to perform the piece at the composer’s indicated tempo, in circumstances where to do so, is plainly suboptimal.


Whereas, if you look at the back of any good metronome.

You will find that the traditional Italian indications of tempo, provide for a genuine range of tempos that are suitably utilised, under any that the composer has particular chosen.

Thus, Moderato provides for a range of tempos, from 66 Beats per minute to 126 Beats per minute. Over the 19th and 20th centuries, different metronomes, across a number of different European countries, have indicated various differences, aligned to specific terms in particular.

That is beside the point, an historical artefact. The real point is of course, that allowing a range of tempos, giving wide latitude to a conductor to interpret a composer’s music. Making allowance and adjustment for the particular concert hall environment, in which the composition will be performed.

I could give various examples, where “musicals” finish the first half with a song or music and open the second half with the same music or as in the case of orchestrations of my own, an entirely different arrangement of the same piece is composed.

Leonard Bernstein always felt his West Side Story musical (a typical case in point), was always opened at the second half “over brightly” by which he meant at too fast a tempo.

Therefore “Brightness” is not simply a matter of pitch (though in many ways it is exactly that) but also a matter of “Tempo” or “Timing”.

In the audience’s perception and experience they are directly related.

As mentioned previously, its all relative!

Re: Round-trip latency: Original Babyface vs DigiFace USB?

I wrote in another thread that all your posts are worth the time reading them. Well, they 're worth of a lot more!! smile
And again, very much appreciated for taking the time and sharing your knowledge!

This clears everything up for me!

The key factors were this:

CrispyChips wrote:

Often it is argued that particular concert halls have or induce by virtue of their design, a dark quality of sound to an orchestra, thus tweaking concert pitch mitigates the negative effect of many halls in which they perform.

and this:

CrispyChips wrote:

In a world with many great orchestras, all at times performing and recording similar music, how do you develop a unique selling point, a sonic signature differentiating your orchestra from all the others?

These were missing from my "field of view".

And yes, I 've read a lot on the subject but these reasons were, never, taken into consideration! Except Baroque music, as you 've mentioned!
So, I started experimenting! Hopefully, my keyboard(a Korg Kronos-X) provided a "Master Pitch Tuning" Setting, in Hz, so I could try things first hand!
But, I couldn't know how that would affect an entire orchestra, hence my question!


CrispyChips wrote:

In my experience, absolutely optimising tempo for the particular venue used for performance, will make far more difference that any minor adjustment by a cent or three, in concert pitch.

CrispyChips wrote:

Its simply about understanding that a piece of music may be performed advantageously in different auditoriums by adjusting the tempo. It’s about optimising performance.

CrispyChips wrote:

Therefore “Brightness” is not simply a matter of pitch (though in many ways it is exactly that) but also a matter of “Tempo” or “Timing”.

It, all, makes sense, now!
Thanks, a lot!!

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632