Topic: Volume control for Pro fs r BE

Hi!
So i would like to purchase the Pro BE, but i need it to work in this specific way
I use some DCA Aeron Noires, which i will get a custom 2x trs cable for the front 2 cable balanced outs. I do however need to be able to plug something into the back that would be unpowered, to send audio to my bass shaker. I am pretty sure that has to be passive outs like rca usually, that then go into my sub amp, which goes to my shakers.
Seeing as the pro BE doesnt have rca, would it be possible for me to turn all amplification to either the rear trs or xlr, while keeping volume to the balanced front outs?
At the moment i have rca going from my Schiit modi 2 uber, being split by some y cables, going to both my magni 3, and the sub amp for the shaker. I would really like to avoid any kind of spaghetti mess, like the one i have now, and just use the 2 outs on the pro BE, along with the front phones
Would this work the way i hope? or have i misunderstood something?
Thank you in advance!

2 (edited by KaiS 2022-06-11 17:47:21)

Re: Volume control for Pro fs r BE

The DCA Aeon 2 Noire (I have it) has 13 Ohm only impedance.
Therefore it doesn’t benefit the slightest from being driven balanced from ADI-2 Pro - which finally is a good thing, as this fact opens up for a simple configuration:

• Use ADI-2 Pro’s 1/2 Line outs for the sub/shaker, connected by an XLR or RCA Y-cable to get a proper mono signal, left + right, for best shaker effect.

• Connect Aeon 2 Noire to PH 3/4 for quasi-independent volume control.
You can still link volume control 1/2 and 3/4, with an offset, if you wish to.

• Or connect Aeon 2 Noire to PH 1/2 for common volume control of headphones and shaker, and regulate the relative shaker volume by it’s amp’s control.

Result: no cable-spaghetti, simple usability  smile


Remark:
ADI-2 Pro drives DCA Aeon-2 Noire with ease, single ended.
I never go far beyond -30 dBr Volume, so tons of headroom.

Once you have your ADI-2, if you like, I can give you an EQ-proposal, that improves the midrange by one class step - at least for me.
It’s a slight correction only, Aeon-2 without EQ already is a tonally very balanced ’phone.

Re: Volume control for Pro fs r BE

KaiS wrote:

The DCA Aeon 2 Noire (I have it) has 13 Ohm only impedance.
Therefore it doesn’t benefit the slightest from being driven balanced from ADI-2 Pro - which finally is a good thing, as this fact opens up for a simple configuration:

• Use ADI-2 Pro’s 1/2 Line outs for the sub/shaker, connected by an XLR or RCA Y-cable to get a proper mono signal, left + right, for best shaker effect.

• Connect Aeon 2 Noire to PH 3/4 for quasi-independent volume control.
You can still link volume control 1/2 and 3/4, with an offset, if you wish to.

• Or connect Aeon 2 Noire to PH 1/2 for common volume control of headphones and shaker, and regulate the relative shaker volume by it’s amp’s control.

Result: no cable-spaghetti, simple usability  :)


Remark:
ADI-2 Pro drives DCA Aeon-2 Noire with ease, single endet.
I never go far beyond -30 dBr Volume, so tons of headroom.

Once you have your ADI-2, if you like, I can give you an EQ-proposal, that improves the midrange by one class step - at least for me.
It’s a slight correction only, Aeon-2 without EQ already is a tonally very balanced ’phone.

Thank you for the eq offer! Unfortunately I get severe pad twisting on my noires, so I am planning on getting some dekonis (still haven't picked fenstrated or solid yet). So their eq is going to be a bit off by default which I will have to learn how to sort from scratch (never touched an eq before).

As for the balanced cable setup, it would solve the problem for now, but if I change headphones in the future that benefits from balanced outputs, I would lose access to my shaker I think?

My new idea is a CYP AU-D12 digital splitter between my TV and rme, with the other optical out on the splitter going to an old audioengine D1, which has passive outs. I think that with the shaker it doesn't like to be preamped? So wouldn't having the volume control of the hp and shaker mess with that if it's anything above 0?
I'm sorry I don't really understand very deeply into audio stuff so I could be misunderstanding, I have simply gotten by with the little I do know haha
It would be a bit more spaghetti than I would like with this setup (if it were to be suitable), but nowhere near as bad as it is now.

Oh and something else I should mention! I will be having this plugged into an online ups, a riello sentinel pro. It claims to be a sinusoidal waveform but not if it is simulated or pure or anything, I saw a decent bit of conflicting info about that causing issues, so would that be okay with the rme?
Thank you for the help!

4 (edited by KaiS 2022-06-11 21:11:26)

Re: Volume control for Pro fs r BE

I‘m audio engineer and have a comprehensive understanding of audio issues by profession - saying that not to show off.

The following is based on personal experience, studies and true blind A/B comparisons with TOTL headphones.


Don’t fall into the trap of the widespread internet myths, e.g. about the superiority of balanced connection.

ADI-2 Pro drives most headphones with about 1000 mW single ended - exact figures don’t matter because doubling the power to 2000 mW is just the little of 3 dB more loudness level!

Nobody with a healthy hearing can stand the loudness resulting from driving ‘phones with 1000 mW, it would permanently damage one’s hearing immediately.
Like going to a shooting range without ear protection.


Another myth is the “underpowered bla bla ...” - but in fact a solid state amp in the quality range of ADI-2 doesn’t change the sound the slightest up to it’s full-power limit.

If you typically need 1-20 mW (that’s the true practical figures) it doesn’t make a difference if your amp can deliver 100, 500, 1000 or 2000 mW.
Like having an F1 car, but never driving fast.


Fazit:
If you don’t buy a Hifiman Susvara AND be a headbanger, you will never need balanced ‘phones connection.

I‘m using much “harder to drive” ‘phones like the AKG K-1000 and the Mysphere 3.2, and still have a 10-times margin to full power with ADI-2 – single ended!


So don’t chain your hands with unrealistic assumptions.
Your above scenario is the opposite of user-friendly.
Keep it simple and enjoy your music,

Re: Volume control for Pro fs r BE

KaiS wrote:

I‘m audio engineer and have a comprehensive understanding of audio issues by profession - saying that not to show off.

The following is based on personal experience, studies and true blind A/B comparisons with TOTL headphones.


Don’t fall into the trap of the widespread internet myths, e.g. about the superiority of balanced connection.

ADI-2 Pro drives most headphones with about 1000 mW single ended - exact figures don’t matter because doubling the power to 2000 mW is just the little of 3 dB more loudness level!

Nobody with a healthy hearing can stand the loudness resulting from driving ‘phones with 1000 mW, it would permanently damage one’s hearing immediately.
Like going to a shooting range without ear protection.


Another myth is the “underpowered bla bla ...” - but in fact a solid state amp in the quality range of ADI-2 doesn’t change the sound the slightest up to it’s full-power limit.

If you typically need 1-20 mW (that’s the true practical figures) it doesn’t make a difference if your amp can deliver 100, 500, 1000 or 2000 mW.
Like having an F1 car, but never driving fast.


Fazit:
If you don’t buy a Hifiman Susvara AND be a headbanger, you will never need balanced ‘phones connection.

I‘m using much “harder to drive” ‘phones like the AKG K-1000 and the Mysphere 3.2, and still have a 10-times margin to full power with ADI-2 – single ended!


So don’t chain your hands with unrealistic assumptions.
Your above scenario is the opposite of user-friendly.
Keep it simple and enjoy your music,

Thank you for the info! So, if the susvara or abyss 1266 are on my list of future potential upgrades would that make a difference to your recommendation? I am leaning much more on the side of not going balanced on the noires now if it will make no difference, though my cable heat shrink is coming off so I figured I might as well get a 2 cable custom if I am replacing it anyway.
If I were to also be planning on using it as a 2 headphone connection (for men and gf to listen at the same time) wouldnt that also prevent me from using the rear outs and require the optical splitter (it that is a functional option) for the shaker?
I have been doing my best to avoid snakeoil recommendations but it's often hardnto tell them apart from real things, like pure sine and stuff from a ups, still dunno if that is just overblown or a real issue

6 (edited by KaiS 2022-06-11 23:55:34)

Re: Volume control for Pro fs r BE

Let’s do some simple math:

• Hifiman Susvara specs: 83 dB SPL / mW sensitivity, 60 Ohm impedance.
• Abyss 1266 Phi is 88 dB SPL / mW,  47 Ohm, so easier to drive.
• ADI-2 Pro Power specs, single ended (diagram manual page 90): 1200 mW into 60 Ohm.

• 1200 mW is 31 dB above 1 mW
• 83 dB SPL + 31 dB = 114 dB SPL max. Sound level.

As a reference: one shouldn’t listen above 85 dB SPL (average) for long term to avoid hearing damage.
BTW: 85 dB SPL average already is uncomfortable loud, like close to a motorbike or uncovered car engine on high RPM.
(These figure are mentioned in Abyss’ manual too, BTW, and should be take seriously).

So you got 28 dB headroom for peaks, even for very dynamic Classical with a 15-20 dB peak / average ratio, power is sufficient.
Rock / Pop etc. has a peak/average ratio of just about 6-8 dB, so even less demanding.

Leaving  8 - 20 dB of headroom, much more if you listen on a more comfortable level .


Balanced would give you 3000 mW, that’s just 4 dB above 1200 mW, not a big difference.

Add in that your bass shaker let’s you perceive the audio more intense, reducing the power demand on the ‘phones.

Re: Volume control for Pro fs r BE

KaiS wrote:

Let’s do some simple math:

• Hifiman Susvara specs: 83 dB SPL / mW sensitivity, 60 Ohm impedance.
• Abyss 1266 Phi is 88 dB SPL / mW,  47 Ohm, so easier to drive.
• ADI-2 Pro Power specs, single ended (diagram manual page 90): 1200 mW into 60 Ohm.

• 1200 mW is 31 dB above 1 mW
• 83 dB SPL + 31 dB = 114 dB SPL max. Sound level.

As a reference: one shouldn’t listen above 85 dB SPL (average) for long term to avoid hearing damage.
BTW: 85 dB SPL average already is uncomfortable loud, like close to a motorbike or uncovered car engine on high RPM.
(These figure are mentioned in Abyss’ manual too, BTW, and should be take seriously).

So you got 28 dB headroom for peaks, even for very dynamic Classical with a 15-20 dB peak / average ratio, power is sufficient.
Rock / Pop etc. has a peak/average ratio of just about 6-8 dB, so even less demanding.

Leaving  8 - 20 dB of headroom, much more if you listen on a more comfortable level .


Balanced would give you 3000 mW, that’s just 4 dB above 1200 mW, not a big difference.

Add in that your bass shaker let’s you perceive the audio more intense, reducing the power demand on the ‘phones.

Thank you for teaching me, I will save my money and go with what you have suggested and avoid the balanced, but I will try and use the digital out through to the audioengine D1 for the shaker, just to see how it works. In the future I will probably want a cheap soundbar like the sonos beam, just for some guilty gear with the girlfriend without having to faff around with speakers, so it would be nice to familiarise myself with the digital out settings before then, as all the settings are already overwhelming me just looking through the manual
I really appreciate the time you have taken to help!

8 (edited by KaiS 2022-06-12 07:16:06)

Re: Volume control for Pro fs r BE

I suggest to use ADI-2 Pro in DAC-Mode (manual page 43).
It’s the most simplistic Mode, best suited for typical home use:

SETUP / Options / Device Mode-DSD / Basic Mode : DAC


If you want to use an external DA-Converter for the shaker, switch:

SETUP / Options / Device Mode-DSD / Dig. Out Source: Main Out

Now the digital out signal level follows the VOLUME control (“post DSP”), you don’t need to readjust the shaker after every volume change, it’s level follows the VOLUME control.

This does not work with Balanced Phones = On.
The DSP is used for balanced operation and therefore Digital Out is disabled when not in setting: Dig. Out Source: “Default”.


SETUP / Options / Device Mode-DSD / Dig. Out Source: Default
delivers the digital signal at full volume, in both Balanced Phones Mode “On” or “OFF”, but you have to separately adjust your shaker volume.