1 Topic by yoorider (edited by yoorider 2022-08-17 02:26:30)

  • Registered: 2021-03-28
  • Posts: 8

Topic: ADI-2 FS AES/EBU compatibility of audio sound perspective

Hello, I have a plan that I am trying to do a digital connection with Genelec 83xx series by using an RME product.

So I am interested in ADI-2 FS on the plan. Also, it's an affordable price.

Using RCA connector, ADI-2 FS model supports the AES/EBU connection.

Q1) In my research, there are two differences between RCA and AES/EBU. One is "voltage". The other is "impedance". Can ADI-2 FS solve the differences?

Q2) With using RCA connector on the digital connection, it can affect audio sound monitoring quality?

Q3) ADI-2 PRO fs also supports AES/EBU by Digital breakout cable(BO968). Is ADI-2 PRO FS a better choice of audio sound quality perspective than ADI-2 FS?

Thank you for reading

  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2007-04-10
  • Posts: 9,549

Re: ADI-2 FS AES/EBU compatibility of audio sound perspective

When connecting to monitors digitally, without using the ADI's converters, there is no question of "sound quality". The only thing that affects it is the DA conversion of the monitors. There is also nothing to "solve" in terms of imepdance or so...

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

  • KaiS
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2020-02-05
  • Posts: 3,120

Re: ADI-2 FS AES/EBU compatibility of audio sound perspective

If you give more info what you’re heading for, help could be more precise.

Are you building a recording studio, what are you going to record, what equipment’s already there to be integrated?

Buying lots of little devices and trying to digitally interface them can easily open a big can of worms.

For a studio the RME UCX series of interfaces solves all trouble at once.
Or your BabyFace already serves you all you need.


According SPDIF-AES:
For cable length < 5 m an impedance-adaption isn’t needed.

But - SPDIF Coax to AES XLR direct connection might work or not, often the SPDIF voltage is insufficient.
In this case expensive electronics is not needed.
A simple passive impedance/level converter can help, as it adapts the impedance AND lifts the voltage.

https://www.musicstore.de/de_DE/EUR/Neu … wcQAvD_BwE

https://images.musicstore.de/images/0960/neutrik-naditbnc-m-aes-ebu-impedanzwandler_1_ACC0004614-000.jpg

KaiS's Website

4 Reply by yoorider (edited by yoorider 2022-08-18 05:17:28)

  • Registered: 2021-03-28
  • Posts: 8

Re: ADI-2 FS AES/EBU compatibility of audio sound perspective

RME Support wrote:

When connecting to monitors digitally, without using the ADI's converters, there is no question of "sound quality". The only thing that affects it is the DA conversion of the monitors. There is also nothing to "solve" in terms of imepdance or so...


I have understood what it does. I'd like to change my inquiry from "sound" to "signal".

There are lots of digital connections. But, I want to deal with "SPDIF to AES/EBU" connection and "RCA to AES/EBU" connection because an audio interface that directly supported "AES/EBU to AES/EBU" is too high-end and too much I/O to use for home studio users like me.

In my research,
   1. AES/EBU needs 2~7 voltage level & 110 Ohm
   2. SPDIF needs 0.5 voltage level & 75 Ohm
   3. RCA needs 1~2 voltage level & 75 Ohm

There is no "SPDIF to AEB/EBU cable". It needs a digital converter like Hosa ODL-312 because there are the differences above described. But, "RCA to AEB/EBU" cable is there. So, I am confused about that.

As I mentioned, RME ADI-2 FS model fully compatibly supports RCA to AES/EBU connection using RCA to AES/EBU cable even though the differences between RCA and AES/EBU exist.

Is there no possibility of signal loss? Can I think that AES/EBU accepted limits are generous?
(I had thought that signal loss occurs some noise then affects the sound quality before your reply.)

5 Reply by yoorider (edited by yoorider 2022-08-18 05:19:14)

  • Registered: 2021-03-28
  • Posts: 8

Re: ADI-2 FS AES/EBU compatibility of audio sound perspective

KaiS wrote:

If you give more info what you’re heading for, help could be more precise.

Are you building a recording studio, what are you going to record, what equipment’s already there to be integrated?

Buying lots of little devices and trying to digitally interface them can easily open a big can of worms.

For a studio the RME UCX series of interfaces solves all trouble at once.
Or your BabyFace already serves you all you need.


According SPDIF-AES:
For cable length < 5 m an impedance-adaption isn’t needed.

But - SPDIF Coax to AES XLR direct connection might work or not, often the SPDIF voltage is insufficient.
In this case expensive electronics is not needed.
A simple passive impedance/level converter can help, as it adapts the impedance AND lifts the voltage.

https://www.musicstore.de/de_DE/EUR/Neu … wcQAvD_BwE

https://images.musicstore.de/images/0960/neutrik-naditbnc-m-aes-ebu-impedanzwandler_1_ACC0004614-000.jpg


I am appreciated your reply. I am a home studio user not a professional. I like listening to music with RME and am interested in Genelec digital speaker getting rid of analog faith. I am willing to set up RME with Genelec system under a reasonable solution.

My audio interface is RME babyface FS. If there is no signal loss of SPDIF to AES/EBU connection, I am going to definitely use my Babyface. But, I have no clear answer to that. So, I have looked into other RME audio interfaces. Since ADI-2 FS is an affordable price and I want to be clear it myself, I have inquired about it in RME forum.

  • vinark
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2009-06-05
  • Posts: 2,650

Re: ADI-2 FS AES/EBU compatibility of audio sound perspective

If you have the babyface pro, not the old old v1 (and even then, that one was pretty good too) I would connect to the genelecs by analog out, not digital. If there are any differences, which I highly doubt, they will 100% sure not be audible. Speakers have distortion in the 1% or more range, amps have distortion too and noise, the babyface has distortion in the 0.01% range or less as do all converters also the genelecs dsp.
Also your room and ears and head placement (lol) will have much much more influence on your audio perception, as does your mood and fatigue level.
The whole concept of signal loss and or conversion degradation is very overrated!

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
Babyface pro fs, HDSP9652+ADI-8AE, HDSP9632
  • Registered: 2021-03-28
  • Posts: 8

Re: ADI-2 FS AES/EBU compatibility of audio sound perspective

vinark wrote:

If you have the babyface pro, not the old old v1 (and even then, that one was pretty good too) I would connect to the genelecs by analog out, not digital. If there are any differences, which I highly doubt, they will 100% sure not be audible. Speakers have distortion in the 1% or more range, amps have distortion too and noise, the babyface has distortion in the 0.01% range or less as do all converters also the genelecs dsp.
Also your room and ears and head placement (lol) will have much much more influence on your audio perception, as does your mood and fatigue level.
The whole concept of signal loss and or conversion degradation is very overrated!

That is a great approach. I might be stuck in the digital stuff. Thank you for refreshing me.

  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2007-04-10
  • Posts: 9,549

Re: ADI-2 FS AES/EBU compatibility of audio sound perspective

yoorider wrote:

My audio interface is RME babyface FS. If there is no signal loss of SPDIF to AES/EBU connection, I am going to definitely use my Babyface. But, I have no clear answer to that. So, I have looked into other RME audio interfaces. Since ADI-2 FS is an affordable price and I want to be clear it myself, I have inquired about it in RME forum.

There is no (gradual) signal loss in digital format conversion. Any "loss" would mean signal corruption...

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

RME Support's Website

9 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2022-08-19 06:15:21)

  • KaiS
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2020-02-05
  • Posts: 3,120

Re: ADI-2 FS AES/EBU compatibility of audio sound perspective

yoorider wrote:

In my research,
   1. AES/EBU needs 2~7 voltage level & 110 Ohm
   2. SPDIF needs 0.5 voltage level & 75 Ohm

yoorider wrote:

   3. RCA needs 1~2 voltage level & 75 Ohm

There is no RCA-digital interfacee.

The SPDIF Coax plug is an RCA connector, 0.5 V, 75 Ohm.

yoorider wrote:

There is no "SPDIF to AEB/EBU cable". It needs a digital converter like Hosa ODL-312 because there are the differences above described. But, "RCA to AEB/EBU" cable is there. So, I am confused about that.

Is there no possibility of signal loss? Can I think that AES/EBU accepted limits are generous?
(I had thought that signal loss occurs some noise then affects the sound quality before your reply.)

I’d like to clear up some misconceptions about SPDIF-Coax to AES-XLR interconnect.


First, I suggest not to make too much out of it.


SPDIF-Coax to AES-XLR practically works quite well most of the time, because the real world AES receiver chips are typically more sensitive than the figures you picked out of the net.

The impedance mismatch works in your hands too, because the higher 110 Ohm AES load does not drop the voltage as much as the 75 Ohm SPDIF receiver would, you get 0.7 V instead of 0.5 V at the AES receiver.


The usual way to deal with it: plug it in and try if it works, most of the times this is all you have to do.
If it doesn’t, it probably will work with the adapter mentioned.



Your main concern was signal quality.

Most quality issues with AES and SPDIF are very clearly audible with normal music, as signal dropouts.

Now, if you want to make sure there is no signal loss, set your player to the highest sample rate you intend to use.
Be aware that 192 kHz is the upper limit the AES/SPDIF interface can deal with.

HINT: for high sample rates use cables as short as possible.

Then, from any source like a sine wave generator app (preferred), download, YouTube, play a very high frequency sine wave, between 17 and 20 kHz (in the range that is inaudible to you).
Be sure to use a natively generated signal, not a resampled one.

Important, do NEVER dial up high volume, check with music at moderate level before playing the sine, or you might fry your tweeters.

Now listen for some time.
If there is something wrong like dropped samples, glitches will occur that sound like the click when the sine wave starts and stops.
If you don’t hear clicks everything is OK.

Tone Generator / Sinewave Generator Apps, e.g.:

https://www.artalabs.hr/

https://www.roomeqwizard.com/

https://www.dr-jordan-design.de/signalgen.htm

https://apps.microsoft.com/store/detail … &gl=DE

https://appfurpc.com.de/app/768229610/a … sgenerator

KaiS's Website

  • Registered: 2021-03-28
  • Posts: 8

Re: ADI-2 FS AES/EBU compatibility of audio sound perspective

KaiS wrote:

Your main concern was signal quality.

Most quality issues with AES and SPDIF are very clearly audible with normal music, as signal dropouts.

Now, if you want to make sure there is no signal loss, set your player to the highest sample rate you intend to use.
Be aware that 192 kHz is the upper limit the AES/SPDIF interface can deal with.

HINT: for high sample rates use cables as short as possible.

Then, from any source like a sine wave generator app (preferred), download, YouTube, play a very high frequency sine wave, between 17 and 20 kHz (in the range that is inaudible to you).
Be sure to use a natively generated signal, not a resampled one.

Important, do NEVER dial up high volume, check with music at moderate level before playing the sine, or you might fry your tweeters.

Now listen for some time.
If there is something wrong like dropped samples, glitches will occur that sound like the click when the sine wave starts and stops.
If you don’t hear clicks everything is OK.

Thank you for that. It is not easy for me. But, it would be valuable work.

  • Registered: 2021-03-28
  • Posts: 8

Re: ADI-2 FS AES/EBU compatibility of audio sound perspective

RME Support wrote:

There is no (gradual) signal loss in digital format conversion. Any "loss" would mean signal corruption...

Please refer to https://www.ranecommercial.com/legacy/note149.html

12 Reply by KaiS (edited by KaiS 2022-08-20 08:13:17)

  • KaiS
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: Germany
  • Registered: 2020-02-05
  • Posts: 3,120

Re: ADI-2 FS AES/EBU compatibility of audio sound perspective

yoorider wrote:
RME Support wrote:

There is no (gradual) signal loss in digital format conversion. Any "loss" would mean signal corruption...

Please refer to https://www.ranecommercial.com/legacy/note149.html

Nice, relatively comprehensive overview.


The issue with the different status bits in AES and SPDIF is only mentioned, not explained, for a reason:
It’s beyond the capability of an average layman’s interest and understanding, would only be confusing.

SPDIF to AES conversion has a multitude of variables.
Manufacturers don’t tell all the details of their interfaces, not even the true levels used, RME is no exception, for the same reason.


Anyway it wouldn’t help without diving real deep, and still no guarantee:
SPDIF and AES are partly compatible, but not fully, under all circumstances, Period.


But: Practically, in most cases the interfacing works, in the real world it saves a lot of time to simply plug and test it.
There is no other way, manufacturer’s information to solve this on a theoretical base (something I like to do in other cases) is not available.

I’ve given you the simple tool to go one step further, fully testing signal integrity, if you’re concerned about it.


Footnote - most important quote from your linked document:

The old rule that direct connection between AES/EBU and S/PDIF equipment is bad practice is relaxed today with new receiver chips tolerant to either interface. ...

KaiS's Website