Topic: Recording analog > Babyface Pro > Audacity - how set the sample rate?

Hello, I am new and my question might be stupid:

I have an analog Input and want to record it to SSD on PC, while the A/D must be done in Babyface Pro.
Where can I set another sample rate; e.g. 48.000 Hz?

I have a Babyface Pro + Fireface USB (03.02.23) V1.227 + Audacity 3.2.5 + Windows 10 (10.0.19045.2728).

It works, but I am not sure, if the A/D-Conversion is done in Babyface or an the PC with Audacity.
E.g. the Sample rate in the Fireface USB Settings / Clock Mode can be set up to 192.000 Hz, but in Audacity up to 384.000 Hz.

So I am confused, where and which data are converted or transported.
Obviously, the analog signal at Str. 3/4 is converted into an digital format ... but which and with which sample rate?

My chain: Analog source > Babyface: Instr. 3/4 > TotalMixFX: routed to unused AS 1/2 > Audacity: Recording Device = SPIF/ADAT (1+2) (Babyface)

Somehow I miss some basic understanding ... thanx for any type of comment!

Re: Recording analog > Babyface Pro > Audacity - how set the sample rate?

Hello!

I don't use Audacity, but are you using the RME ASIO driver?
There must be some setting in Audacity, for you to set this up. An option like "Audio Devices" or "Audio Settings".

When you find it, set it to the RME ASIO driver and after that you can select your preferred Sample Rate from the BF Pro Settings!
You don't have to use 384KHz in Audacity. The conversion is done by the BF Pro in the Sample Rate you have in the RME Settings.
Then, perhaps Audacity just up-samples the signal which is of no use, since 192KHz is perfect and is the "limit" of the actual converter.

Also, you don' t have to send Inst 3/4 to S/PDIF. You can select those Inputs directly from Audacity, I think! Just set the Input to Inst 3/4, or Line In3/4(can' t remember the name)

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Recording analog > Babyface Pro > Audacity - how set the sample rate?

Hello!

First of all: Thanx for your answer!

To be sure, I updated all software and drivers. However, you got the point: The question ist the type of connection to Audacity.

The Babyface Pro is connected via USB to the PC.
The "RME Fireface USB" has a settings dialog with "Windows WDM and ASIO 2.3 Support".

In Audacity, I can choose any of Babyface's hardware-output-channels as recording device;
BUT regarding the type there is only MME | Windows DirectSound | Windows WASAPI ... no ASIO.

So I scanned several forums, where is stated, that audacity DOES NOT SUPPORT ASIO due to licence reasons.

Do I really need ASIO to record one analog stereo-source?

As already said, I can set the sample rate at the RME Fireface USB driver;
BUT there is nothing regarding the bit-bandwith; e.g. 16 Bit | 24 Bit etc.

On Audacity I can also choose 44,1 kHz sample rate + 16 Bit | 24 Bit | 32 Bit floating point.

I could set both to 44,1 kHz but still have no idea, if there is any additional conversion before writing to disc ... still confused.

Any idea? What software for recording are you using?

Any kind of advice is very welcome!

4 (edited by MetalHeadKeys 2023-03-18 17:24:04)

Re: Recording analog > Babyface Pro > Audacity - how set the sample rate?

You 're welcome!

Dr.Mavro wrote:

So I scanned several forums, where is stated, that audacity DOES NOT SUPPORT ASIO due to licence reasons.

Aaah, you 're missing all the good stuff!

Of course you should use ASIO!
Bit depth is the resolution of the sampled signal, i.e: the dynamic range.

16bit equals to 96dB of dynamic range, 24bit  -> 144dB, 32bit float -> 1528dB(theoretically). Wiki link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_bit_depth
Dynamic range is the range between the softest and the loudest parts of a given signal. For example, a piano piece starting very softly and then, escalating to a fff(very loud) refrain.

So if you want to record acoustic instruments with wide dynamic ranges, you should use higher bit depths. Of course, the converter goes up to 24bits, but you can use 32bit in your DAW for better plug-in processing!

For rock, metal, EDM etc 24bits is quite adequate! No need for more, I think!

And as for a DAW, I use Reaper and I recommend you to download it!
It 's free for 2months with full functionality! Link: https://www.reaper.fm/
It's, also, easy to understand and there are many tutorials in YouTube!

So, yeah, my suggestion is to download Reaper, select the RME ASIO Driver and enjoy your recordings!!

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Recording analog > Babyface Pro > Audacity - how set the sample rate?

Agreed get reaper. Audacity in my opinion is like toy compared to any DAW. I wouldn’t use software that doesn’t support asio

Babyface Pro Fs, Behringer ADA8200, win 10/11 PCs, Cubase/Wavelab, Adam A7X monitors.

Re: Recording analog > Babyface Pro > Audacity - how set the sample rate?

Thanx a lot for your hints! ... and sorry for the late answer; I had some vacation.

In the meantime I had discovered, that Cubase supports ASIO.
I already hat an old Cubase LE, not not compatible with Win10.
Therefore I bought Cubase Elements 12 at an special March-Price of € 60.

First to record analog Audio and second for my midi-loop keyboard, sound modules etc.
It took a while to get familiar with this software, which is - at least for me - complex with endless functionality.
However, this works perfectly with ASIO!

Plus, I definitely will try reaper, as you suggested.

For me is in this case most important to get the highest possible quality of digital recording from an analog source.

One question arised out of your comment: If I use the A/D-converter of Babyface and then record it in Cubase with 32 Bit float, there must be an upscaling or not? The signal from Babyface to pc to Cubase is digital, anyway; or do I miss here something?

I don't really need it, but alwais am courious and wand to know, how things are working :-)

Re: Recording analog > Babyface Pro > Audacity - how set the sample rate?

Cubase is good. I use Cubase pro. I really wouldn’t worry about 32bit float. It’s not going to degrade anything

Babyface Pro Fs, Behringer ADA8200, win 10/11 PCs, Cubase/Wavelab, Adam A7X monitors.

8 (edited by MetalHeadKeys 2023-03-24 17:27:52)

Re: Recording analog > Babyface Pro > Audacity - how set the sample rate?

mkok wrote:

Cubase is good. I use Cubase pro. I really wouldn’t worry about 32bit float. It’s not going to degrade anything

+1

Dr.Mavro wrote:

For me is in this case most important to get the highest possible quality of digital recording from an analog source.

One question arised out of your comment: If I use the A/D-converter of Babyface and then record it in Cubase with 32 Bit float, there must be an upscaling or not? The signal from Babyface to pc to Cubase is digital, anyway; or do I miss here something?

The highest possible quality is 24bits and that happens on a hardware level. The actual converter of you BF is 24bits and it is used all the time you record something.
32bits float is not an upscale per se; it will, just, yield "better" results IF you are going to use any processing on the source.

For example, if you are recording a violin in an underground cave, or in a church, and you have a mic to capture the natural reverberance of the place, and then you want to apply some gentle compression on the reverb track, then 32bit float will provide an advantage.
That is because the plugin(the compressor in this case) will have more "dynamic information" to work on!

If you don't have to record and mix that kind of soundscapes, then 24bits is quite adequate!!
Also, 32bit float occurs on a software level(the DAW), which (as a process) can be described as the DAW's engine taking additional amplitude "snapshots" of the original 24bit signal. So, not an actual upscaling!

Here 's another link, https://www.mixinglessons.com/bit-depth/

Also, you could try an A/B test, yourself!
Record, let's say, a MIDI Loop (on the same level) in two different projects, one in 24bits, one in 32bit float, export them in WAV format, and have someone play them for you, without you knowing which is which! Then let your ears, be the judge! smile

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Recording analog > Babyface Pro > Audacity - how set the sample rate?

@MetalHeadKeys and @mkok: Thanx very, very much for your tipps!

My results:

1) RECORDONG an analog Source - with "Cubase Elements 12" (60 € = promotion price in March; now 100 €):
   Normally 60 days test-period, but i bought it before to get the promotion price

a) PC > USB > "Babyface Pro" (the old one, not FS):
   Connect analog test-source to the two 6,35mm mono audio jacks

b) CUBASE (just the important settings):
   Studio / Audio / Settings / Audiosystem / ASIO-Driver = select 'ASIO Fireface USB' (= successful direct connection!)
   .. / disable asio driver when program is running in background = NO
   .. / HW-Samplerate = 44.100 kHz (external Clock) (... Sample-Rate of the project is 44.1 kHz)
   .. / Accuracy = 32 bit float
   Studio / Audio / Settings / Audiosystem / External Clock-Signal = YES
   etc.
   Activate RECORD and MONITOR on the recording track

c) TotalMixFx:
   Recorded Signal on 'HARDWARE INPUT Instr. 3/4' routed to unused 'HARDWARE OUTPUTS AS 1/2'
   Monitor Signal on 'SOFTWARE PLAYBACK PH 3/4' routed to 'Main = PH 3/4' = Headphones

d) Start replaying the Source and recording in Cubase ... until stop

e) Deactivate (!) RECORD and MONITOR on the recorded track

f) Cut unused start and end of the track
   Some Analysis; e.g. 'Spectral Analysis' + 'Statistics' (to check the peaks)
   Normalize to 0 dB (since no further effects) via direct offline rework
   Delete the Hitpoints (obviousely created when normalizing)
   Insert Fade-In and -Out
   Set the Locator-Range to what I wanted to save to disk

g) Export Audio-Mixdown to WAVE, 44.1 kHz 16 Bit interleaved (=stereo)

WORKS PERFECTLY!

After this I experimented with a serie of effects and realized that with this normalizing has to be done to -6 dB maximum before ...
Also, I have not yet figured out how to normalize to a "True Peak Level".

This was the first attempt and any comments are welcome! smile

Re: Recording analog > Babyface Pro > Audacity - how set the sample rate?

Here the second results:

2) RECORDONG an analog Source - with Reaper 6.78 (60 $ for private, hobby use, 60 days trial period)
   Remark: The last free and very old version is 0.999, which can also be downloaded - but with much less functionality compared to 6.78
   In fact, I tested reaper before I tested Cubase

a) PC > USB > "Babyface Pro" (the old one, not FS):
   Connect analog test-source to the two 6,35mm mono audio jacks

b) REAPER Preferences (just the important ones):
   Device / Audio system = ASIO
   .. / ASIO Driver = ASIO Fireface USB
   .. / Enable inputs: first = Analog (1), last = Adat (8)
   .. / Output range: first = Analog (1), last = Adat (8)
   .. / requested sample ratze = 44100
   .. / Allow projects to override device sample rate = YES
   .. / 'ASIO Cinfiguration...' => 'Fireface USB Settings' (Sample rate can be selected; not greyed out)
   Project Settings / Media / Recording / Audio format fpr new recordings = WAV
   .. / WAV bit depth = 24 bit PCM, Large files = Auto WAV/Wave64
   .. / Write BWF ('best') chunk = YES
   .. / Format for Apply FX, Glue, Freeze etc. = Automatic
   .. / Default format for project/region render = 16bit WAV
   Project Settings / Advanced / :
   .. / External timecode synchronization = YES, Configure: Enable synchronization to timecode = YES, Playback = NO, Recording = YES
   .. / Use Input = 'LTC: Analog IN (L) Instr 3/4'
   .. / Display flashing notification window when waiting for sync for recording = YES

=> For the last 3 points I am not sure, because when recording the window *always* is flashing and I have to override it
=> What is the correct setting, when I want to have the main clock in Babyface?

   .. / Rewire Client Project Settings: Send loop point/repeat change request to host = YES

=> Here I am also not sure ...

   Prepare track to record + Set routing + Record

c) TotalMixFx:
   Recorded Signal on 'HARDWARE INPUT Instr. 3/4' fader set to -oo, routed to 'HARDWARE OUTPUTS PH 3/4'
   Monitor Signal on 'SOFTWARE PLAYBACK PH 3/4' fader set to -13, routed to 'HARDWARE OUTPUTS PH 3/4'
   Main = none

d) REAPER:
   Media Item Properties: Set Fade-In and Fade-Out, Normalize to 'True Peak' = 0 dB
   Optimize Fade-In and Fade-Out graphically on the track
   Render to file: Sample rate = 44100 Hz, Primary output format = WAV, 16 bit PCM, Large files: Force WAV [Render 1 File]
   Did some analysis; e.g. 'stats' (lots of infos!)

SO IT WORKED! However, I am not sure about the points mentioned above ...

Remark: I was overwhelmed by the incredible amount of settings options. I have therefore created an extra directory of the documentation so as not to lose the thread, because overall it seemed quite complex to me, at least for now.

This was my first attempt with Reaper and any comments are welcome! smile

11 (edited by MetalHeadKeys 2023-04-17 13:45:43)

Re: Recording analog > Babyface Pro > Audacity - how set the sample rate?

You 're welcome, Dr.Mavro!
Glad you 've made progress and started recording! smile

I, only, have a couple of points for you!

Dr.Mavro wrote:

Project Settings / Advanced / :
   .. / External timecode synchronization = YES, Configure: Enable synchronization to timecode = YES, Playback = NO, Recording = YES
   .. / Use Input = 'LTC: Analog IN (L) Instr 3/4'
   .. / Display flashing notification window when waiting for sync for recording = YES

These options aren't for Digital Audio Synchronization. These are required for syncing Audio-Video applications and there are many options, so here is a link for you to check: https://www.prosoundweb.com/in-sync-und … roduction/

So, you could turn these options to:
/External timecode synchronization = NO
/Use Input = 'None'
/Display flashing notification window when waiting for sync for recording = NO

The other thing I wanted to point out is that you should, always, use "Dithering" when rendering a track to a Lower Bit Rate than the one in the recording.
For example, if you are recording in 24bit and extract your audio file to 16bit, you should, always, put a dithering plugin, in the last effect slot of your Master Buss. Even after the Limiter!
If you don't have a dedicated plugin, Reaper has an option that you can tick when rendering/exporting a track! (Dither master)(with an additional Noise Shape Master option) *you 'll understand Noise Shape Master, if you read the links below
Cubase might have such an option, too, but I don't know.

To understand dithering, here are some links to study:
https://archiv.rme-audio.de/old/english … dither.htm(this is from the older - old RME website smile )

and this: https://www.izotope.com/en/learn/what-i … audio.html

RME Gear: Digiface USB, HDSP 9632

Re: Recording analog > Babyface Pro > Audacity - how set the sample rate?

@MetalHeadKeys: Wow, I am REALLY impressed.
However, I have to read these explanations twice.
In the Meantime I found the Dithering in Cubase Elements 12.
Thanx a lot again!