1 Topic by zwap (edited by zwap 2023-11-14 20:41:36)

  • zwap
  • ADAT user
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2021-07-20
  • Posts: 29

Topic: Babyface Pro FS per optical SPDIF an DSP Monitorlautsprecher

Hallo

(sorry for posting in german, its complex)

Ich habe inzwischen Neumann KH120 II Lautsprecher, welche DSP-Monitore sind
und einen digitalen Eingang haben (leider coax/cinch)

Ist es ratsam diese vom Babyface Pro FS auch digital anzusteuern, statt klassisch über XLR?
Meine Gedanken wären, dass ich mir hierbei die 2 fach die Konvertierung DA -> AD sparen kann,
sowie die analoge XLR-Verkabelung.

Da meine Musik vom Computer per USB ins Babyface Pro FS geht, wird diese dann wenn
ich es richtig verstehe quasi vom BF Pro FS nur zu den digitalen Neumännern durchgeschliffen?


Da das Babyface Pro FS einen optischen Ausgang hat, die Neumann KH120II aber einen
digitalen/cinch Eingang habe ich mir so eine kleine Konverter Box bestellt. 
Ist soetwas bei digitalen signalen problematisch, sync? clock? oder unbedenklich?

Ist hier etwas zu beachten?  Die Steady-Clock vom Babyface Pro ist dann nicht (mehr)  aktiv?

  • vinark
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2009-06-05
  • Posts: 2,736

Re: Babyface Pro FS per optical SPDIF an DSP Monitorlautsprecher

Nein kein fs das komt denn zur Rechnung von den jitter suppression von die Neumann's. Wenn Neumann das richtig gemacht haben und warum nicht, soll das einfach ohne problem arbeiten. Auch über analog soll dass ohne wirkliche verlust arbeiten.
Hoffe das mein Deutsch begreiflich ist....

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632
  • zwap
  • ADAT user
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2021-07-20
  • Posts: 29

Re: Babyface Pro FS per optical SPDIF an DSP Monitorlautsprecher

vinark wrote:

Nein kein fs das komt denn zur Rechnung von den jitter suppression von die Neumann's. Wenn Neumann das richtig gemacht haben und warum nicht, soll das einfach ohne problem arbeiten. Auch über analog soll dass ohne wirkliche verlust arbeiten.
Hoffe das mein Deutsch begreiflich ist....

Yes, Thank you!

  • Registered: 2016-06-14
  • Posts: 1,142

Re: Babyface Pro FS per optical SPDIF an DSP Monitorlautsprecher

Meines Wissens haben der Takt des USB-Streams (Computer -> BFproFS) und derjenige am optischen Ausgang nichts miteinander zu tun. Die entsprechenden Audiodaten werden aus dem USB-Stream ausgelesen und mit der internen Clock des Interfaces als SPDIF-Signal weitergegeben. Steadyclock FS kommt also sehr wohl zum Einsatz.

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

5 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2023-11-15 11:25:18)

  • ramses
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • From: UTC+1
  • Registered: 2012-10-14
  • Posts: 12,847

Re: Babyface Pro FS per optical SPDIF an DSP Monitorlautsprecher

oli77sch wrote:

Meines Wissens haben der Takt des USB-Streams (Computer -> BFproFS) und derjenige am optischen Ausgang nichts miteinander zu tun. Die entsprechenden Audiodaten werden aus dem USB-Stream ausgelesen und mit der internen Clock des Interfaces als SPDIF-Signal weitergegeben. Steadyclock FS kommt also sehr wohl zum Einsatz.

Ja, es ist keine synchrone Übertragung. Überall da, wo Du bufferst, ist es nicht synchron (-> ASIO Buffer-size)
und bei USB2 ist die Übertragung sogar halb-duplex. Da kann nur in die eine oder die andere Richtung übertragen werden (senden oder empfangen).

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, RayDAT, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10Pro22H2, Cub13
  • vinark
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2009-06-05
  • Posts: 2,736

Re: Babyface Pro FS per optical SPDIF an DSP Monitorlautsprecher

Steadyclock (FS) only does its magic when clocked to external gear. Audio over usb has nothing to do with that. USB audio can be clocked internal or external. There is no clock signal in RME's usb protocol.
The OP is asking if it is useful to connect his speakers using a digital connection.
The babyface will be master clock so it is all dependent on the clock recovery of his Neumann speakers.
And for the 100th time Steadyclock FS makes it possible to run a RME converter with external clock with the same minimal jitter as if on internal clock. And yes it will also distribute this clock to the other digital outs of the interface, but that is not the case here.
So yes FS can clean up a very nasty external clock better the normal steadyclock, but it has to be very very nasty to make a difference.
And again in this situation, usb audio internal clock and using optical spdif ou, steadyclock is not doing anything at all.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632
  • Registered: 2016-06-14
  • Posts: 1,142

Re: Babyface Pro FS per optical SPDIF an DSP Monitorlautsprecher

vinark wrote:

Steadyclock (FS) only does its magic when clocked to external gear. Audio over usb has nothing to do with that. USB audio can be clocked internal or external. There is no clock signal in RME's usb protocol.
The OP is asking if it is useful to connect his speakers using a digital connection.
The babyface will be master clock so it is all dependent on the clock recovery of his Neumann speakers.
And for the 100th time Steadyclock FS makes it possible to run a RME converter with external clock with the same minimal jitter as if on internal clock. And yes it will also distribute this clock to the other digital outs of the interface, but that is not the case here.
So yes FS can clean up a very nasty external clock better the normal steadyclock, but it has to be very very nasty to make a difference.
And again in this situation, usb audio internal clock and using optical spdif ou, steadyclock is not doing anything at all.

Not true. According to the description text on the RME website, steadyclock technology (FS or not) is also active on the internal clock - yes, why it shouldn’t? 
https://www.rme-audio.de/steadyclock-fs.html

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2
  • Registered: 2016-06-14
  • Posts: 1,142

Re: Babyface Pro FS per optical SPDIF an DSP Monitorlautsprecher

ramses wrote:
oli77sch wrote:

Meines Wissens haben der Takt des USB-Streams (Computer -> BFproFS) und derjenige am optischen Ausgang nichts miteinander zu tun. Die entsprechenden Audiodaten werden aus dem USB-Stream ausgelesen und mit der internen Clock des Interfaces als SPDIF-Signal weitergegeben. Steadyclock FS kommt also sehr wohl zum Einsatz.

Ja, es ist keine synchrone Übertragung. Überall da, wo Du bufferst, ist es nicht synchron (-> ASIO Buffer-size)
und bei USB2 ist die Übertragung sogar halb-duplex. Da kann nur in die eine oder die andere Richtung übertragen werden (senden oder empfangen).

Es erfolgt über USB keine lineare Übertragung, die Daten werden „in Paketen verschickt“. Im Interface werden sie dann quasi „ausgepackt“ und weitergeleitet - schön im Takt der internen oder externen Clock und dank Steadyclock nahezu frei von Jitter.

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2

9 Reply by vinark (edited by vinark 2023-11-15 14:26:40)

  • vinark
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2009-06-05
  • Posts: 2,736

Re: Babyface Pro FS per optical SPDIF an DSP Monitorlautsprecher

oli77sch wrote:
vinark wrote:

Steadyclock (FS) only does its magic when clocked to external gear. Audio over usb has nothing to do with that. USB audio can be clocked internal or external. There is no clock signal in RME's usb protocol.
The OP is asking if it is useful to connect his speakers using a digital connection.
The babyface will be master clock so it is all dependent on the clock recovery of his Neumann speakers.
And for the 100th time Steadyclock FS makes it possible to run a RME converter with external clock with the same minimal jitter as if on internal clock. And yes it will also distribute this clock to the other digital outs of the interface, but that is not the case here.
So yes FS can clean up a very nasty external clock better the normal steadyclock, but it has to be very very nasty to make a difference.
And again in this situation, usb audio internal clock and using optical spdif ou, steadyclock is not doing anything at all.

Not true. According to the description text on the RME website, steadyclock technology (FS or not) is also active on the internal clock - yes, why it shouldn’t? 
https://www.rme-audio.de/steadyclock-fs.html

I am sorry but you read it wrong! this is very important cause it causes unnecessary stress for people who have a steadyckock only device (I have a FS device so I am not saying this to defend my own choice). Only in cases where clocked externally and to a very bad source, like madi, there is a very small improvement. As RME says it themselves, there was very little to improve in steadyclock.

About Steadyclock in general

There is not much to improve with SteadyClock, it has earned its accolades over years of flawless operation in numerous RME devices, guaranteeing that using the internal clock will produce exactly the same sound as when using an external one. SteadyClock highly rejects jitter and handles all digital interface formats in an exemplary way.

About FS

The self jitter measured through DA conversion now reaches levels that usually are only available in master quart

@MC

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632
  • Registered: 2016-06-14
  • Posts: 1,142

Re: Babyface Pro FS per optical SPDIF an DSP Monitorlautsprecher

@vinark
It seems there are some misunderstandings between us (language issue maybe?). So I want to try to clear things up:
1:

vinark wrote:

Steadyclock (FS) only does its magic when clocked to external gear.

Mainly yes, but it also 'cleans' the self jitter of the internal clock.
2:

vinark wrote:

Audio over usb has nothing to do with that. USB audio can be clocked internal or external. There is no clock signal in RME's usb protocol.

It's what I wrote too, so why do you correct me? See here:

oli77sch wrote:

Meines Wissens haben der Takt des USB-Streams (Computer -> BFproFS) und derjenige am optischen Ausgang nichts miteinander zu tun.

3:

vinark wrote:

I am sorry but you read it wrong! this is very important cause it causes unnecessary stress for people who have a steadyckock only device...

I never compared the different versions of Steadyclock and I also didn't say, FS is much better or such. So I for sure don't cause any stress to someone.

4:

vinark wrote:

About Steadyclock in general

There is not much to improve with SteadyClock

Well, exactly that is related to the difference between 'normal' Steadyclock and the improved FS version.
In my opinion in the German version it's even more clear:
Es gibt an SteadyClock nicht viel zu verbessern, die Schaltung hat sich in Jahren einwandfreien Betriebs in zahlreichen RME-Geräten viel Lob und Auszeichnungen verdient.

5:

vinark wrote:

Only in cases where clocked externally and to a very bad source, like madi, there is a very small improvement.

Are you sure? RME writes:
With SteadyClock FS the focus was put on reducing the self jitter of SteadyClock to new lows, by improving its second, analog PLL circuit, and referencing both Direct Digital Synthesis and PLL to a low phase noise quartz crystal. The self jitter measured through DA conversion now reaches levels that usually are only available in master quartz clock mode, while SteadyClock still always runs in PLL mode - no matter if internal or external clock, sound is exactly the same (again). The low phase noise oscillator driving the updated circuit reaches jitter specs lower than a picosecond (ps), an area called FemtoSecond. Hence SteadyClock FS.

UCX - FF 400 - Babyface pro - Digiface USB - ADI-2 (original)
Mac mini M1 - Macbook pro - iPad Air2
  • vinark
  • DAW Mastermind
  • Offline
  • Registered: 2009-06-05
  • Posts: 2,736

Re: Babyface Pro FS per optical SPDIF an DSP Monitorlautsprecher

Improving the self jitter of SteadyClock

This is the key...there was jitter in the steadyclock recovered external clock. This has been reduced to internal clock levels by steadyclock FS.
I am 100% sure.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632