Topic: Help me to choose products

Hello everyone,
I need help solving my problem:
I have 16 analog XLR channels that need to be digitized. The digital signal then needs to be sent to a computer running Windows 10, into a DAW/ or TotalMix FX.
I need to process the signal in real-time, applying filters such as compressors, signal cuts, delay, and others.
Some channels will be duplicated, resulting in a total of 50 channels with different parameters.
After processing, the digital signal needs to be converted back to analog sound.
I read about RoomEQ, but it seems that this program has limitations on the number of channels.
A DAW is preferable but not essential. Can I manage with just TotalMix FX?
What products do I need to buy to solve my problem? I would prefer to use an AVB interface or\with MADI.
Which of the following and in what quantity will help me solve my task, with low latency:

HDSPe AoX
M-1620 Pro
Digiface AVB
AVB Tool - is this already outdated equipment?
Fireface UFX III
M-32 AD / 2xM-32 DA Pro II
Do I need an AVB router?

Re: Help me to choose products

HDSPe AoX, Digiface AVB have no FX chip, thus no Room EQ and doesn't offer FX.

AVB tool is not available anymore and it was more a converter, no recording interface, USB only for remote control and firmware updates. Not applicable for you anyway.

I would use AVB only if there is a real reason. AVB and DANTE are still not so flexible, that you have clock master and slaves following automatically the clock of the master. Every new project or playback with a different sample rate would need all devices to be reconfigured manually. For AVB you would need an AVB switch which means additional cost.

Therefore, I would recommend you to take a recording interface with MADI support, FX chip and where Room EQ is supported.

Either PCIe based: HDSPe MADI FX is the only PCIe card with FX chip. Only newer models allow for Room EQ.
Has 3 MADI buses and a CPU resource optimizing driver.

Or the UFX III: with one MADI bus.

At what sample rates do you intend to work?

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, M-1620 Pro D, RayDAT, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10

Re: Help me to choose products

ramses wrote:

At what sample rates do you intend to work?

Thank you for reply

"At what sample rates do you intend to work?"

I think I'm limited to 16 channels for 192/24 for recording
For playback I need 50 channels, I don't remember the restrictions for MADI/AVB, but I think it will be 48/24?
I would like 192\24 or 96\24

I understand correctly that for recording I need one M-32 AD Pro II / or M-1620 Pro?
And for playing I need two M-32 DA Pro II?

If I'm right, I just have to decide what other equipment I need so that I can process the audio either on the PC or using TotalMix FX

Processing on a PC via USB or AVB?
It turns out I need some of this equipment?
HDSPe AoX
Digiface AVB
Fireface UFX III

I would prefer to do without expansion cards for the computer, as a last resort if only HDSPe AoX for AVB

As for the low lexibility of AVB and the need for frequent reconfiguration, I think I can live with it, or use MADI
But I would prefer not to be limited in the length and type of cable, when conntcting PC and equipment, so I look towards the Ethernet port via AVB

4 (edited by ramses 2024-08-01 10:55:36)

Re: Help me to choose products

Can you please describe your use case more verbose to understand the demand.

You started telling that you want to record 16 analog channels.
I am wondering why you need 192 kHz.
What type of audio is this? For what purpose do you need 192 kHz?

Then I am wondering what kind of processing your need.
Normally you work in a DAW, there you use either a VST or external HW either as "insert" (per track) or as "send" for multiple tracks (e.g. reverb) which is more efficient (less processing).
If you connect external devices, you need the same number of analog inputs/and outputs.

What I absolutely do not understand from your description, why I asked for more information,
why you say that the amount of output channels would duplicate.
What is the purpose? To where are you sending the processed signals?
Normally you would mix and master .. why do you need the double amount of outputs.
Your setup and requirements are not clear to me.

I would like to understand what you are doing there otherwise I feel like getting only half of the information.
Then I can not make a good proposal.

If you say you need quad speed (192 kHz) I would like to know for what reason.
Because quad speed has an impact ... you loose a lot of channels, because 4 channels need to be multiplexed to get the bandwidth for quad speed. So at the end only 25% of your MADI channels are left.
1 MADI Bus = 64ch at single speed, 32ch at double speed, 16ch at quad speed.

What I also do not understand is, why you think you could work without a DAW and why you think that you do not need more than the effect section of TM FX. It does not make sense to me that you raise high requirements of 192 kHz sample rate but on the other hand a fix set of effects in TM FX is all that you need for processing.

I also do not understand, what your expectation or requirements are in terms of Room EQ.
Why do you intend to use Room EQ for so many output channels?

Normally you would EQ the stereo sum of your channels and Room EQ is normally there to drive your active monitors.
But why you seem to think you need Room EQ for the double amount of your channels or even more?

Sorry, but without any further information I have a bad feeling to not get to the essence of your requirements, whats needed for what exact purpose. At the moment everything sounds a bit strange to me.

In some places you have already jumped to conclusions. You seem to think that you absolutely need AVM/Ethernet because of the cable length. When using multimode transceivers, MADI not only supports 100m as with Ethernet, but with Multimode fiber (the default offering) up to 2km between each individual device, which can also be connected in series.
On special order (for devices without SFP) you can even get single mode which supports even 10km between each of the devices in a serial chain.
So, it could also be possible that 192 kHz is not really a hard requirement here. So why don't you tell us exactly what you have in mind instead of assuming things are already set in stone. Perhaps there are other possible solutions or better solutions than you might think at the moment.

So please make your setup and use cases more clear / understandable.

A little drawing is also welcome for illustration purposes. Thanks.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, M-1620 Pro D, RayDAT, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10

Re: Help me to choose products

ramses wrote:

Can you please describe your use case more verbose to understand the demand

Sorry for not providing more information initially. I thought the details I shared would be sufficient, and I didn't want to overload the message with unnecessary information.
A frequency of 192 kHz is desirable since my source produces sound in this format. The problem I'm trying to solve is that I need to digitize the sound output from the AV processor, which comes through 16 XLR channels, in real-time. I need to convert these 16 channels from analog to digital.
I have three-way surround monitors without passive crossovers, and my main monitors are four-way. Additionally, I have two subwoofers, and none of these speakers have built-in crossovers. When processing the 16 channels coming from the AV processor, I need to ensure that each amplifier powering the speakers receives only the required frequency range, along with proper equalization, delay, and other necessary adjustments.
Initially, I thought using a dedicated DAW for this purpose would be a good idea, given the availability of numerous high-quality VST plugins. However, a pure DAW solution or a combination with TotalMix FX also seems like an excellent approach.
Considering the 16 speakers and the number of frequency bands, I ultimately need 50 output channels to feed the amplifiers. Regarding the 192 kHz requirement, I understand that MADI/AVB has limitations in this aspect, so it's not a strict necessity.
You asked, "I also do not understand what your expectations or requirements are in terms of Room EQ. Why do you intend to use Room EQ for so many output channels?" I want to clarify that I would like to use Room EQ specifically to calibrate all the monitors in my room.
You also mentioned, "Normally, you would EQ the stereo sum of your channels, and Room EQ is normally there to drive your active monitors. But why do you seem to think you need Room EQ for the double amount of your channels or even more?" You may be right. I don't have RME equipment on hand, so I can't fully grasp the exact functionalities and limitations, even though I've read the manuals for almost all the interfaces I mentioned.
Regarding AVB/Ethernet, you are absolutely right. Thank you for the explanation. I am completely open to a pure MADI solution.


                  +--------------+
                  | AV Processor |
                  +--------------+
                         |
                  16 Analog XLR
                         |
                  +--------------+
                  |  M-32 AD Pro |
                  +--------------+
                         |
            MADI or AVB or USB |
                         |
                         ?At this point I don't know what I need
                         |
         +------------------------+
         |        Computer        |
         |     (TotalMix FX)      |
         +------------------------+
                         |
                         ?At this point I don't know what I need
                         |
            MADI or AVB |
                         |
                  +----------------+
                  |  2xM-32 DA Pro |
                  +----------------+
                         |
                  50 Analog Outs
                         |
          +-------+-------+-------+
          |       |       |       |
     Amplifiers  ...   Amplifiers  Amplifiers  
          |       |       |       |
      Speakers   ...   Speakers   Subwoofers

6 (edited by ramses 2024-08-01 14:27:13)

Re: Help me to choose products

Hi Korben, no problem and thanks for more background information.

I am not sure whether TotalMix, with or without Room EQ, would be suitable to act as an active crossover.
Sorry, this is not my area of expertise.

Regarding a possible setup:
It is impossible to get ONE product (recording interface) which supports 50 output channels @192 kHz,
so that it is not required to route channels without having to go through DAW.
There is no such a product which has FX chip for FX/Room EQ AND enough channels.

This solution would be feasible ...
- routing via DAW
- same type of converter (same converter latencies)
- everything over multimode fiber (OM3 or OM4)
- each device is connected to its own MADI bus; if you would chain MADI devices, then you would get
  12 samples delay per device at quad speed, this is avoided in this setup, where you connect 1 device per MADI bus

HDSPe MADI FX #1---MADI1(opt)---M-1620 Pro AD/DA (16ch IN/OUT @192 kHz)+---16 IN
                                                                                                                            +---16 OUT
HDSPe MADI FX #1---MADI2(opt)---M-1620 Pro AD/DA (16ch IN/OUT @192 kHz)+---16 OUT
HDSPe MADI FX #2---MADI1(opt)---M-1620 Pro AD/DA (16ch IN/OUT @192 kHz)+---16 OUT
HDSPe MADI FX #2---MADI2(opt)---M-1620 Pro AD/DA (16ch IN/OUT @192 kHz)+---16 OUT

The new M-1620 Pro was announced shortly .. Might need a couple of months until final availability.

RME needs to confirm, that TotalMix FX / Room EQ alone would be feasible to act as active crossover in your setup.
You also need to ask how many Room EQ instances are supported per HDSPe MADI FX.

Please keep in mind, also the PC must be able to process all channels of those two cards

As a side note, I have doubts whether the AD conversion at double speed would really cause an audible quality decrease
compared to the source signal. Maybe you should A/B / validate that 1st before having too high requirements. Just my opinion/guess (not tested, validated in blind tests). It would surely ease everything a bit, only having to deal with this amount of channels at double speed.

BTW .. do you have a setup of multiple B&W Nautilus ? But stop, I think they have internal passive crossover.
But I heard each of the speaker would require a dedicated amplifier.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, M-1620 Pro D, RayDAT, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10

Re: Help me to choose products

Thank you very much for the information and the proposed configuration. I probably didn't explain well, but I understand that for DA conversion I need two interfaces, and one for recording. That's why I'm considering buying one M-32 AD Pro II and two M-32 DA Pro II.
However, I don't understand how they can communicate with each other. Or is it all supposed to be managed by the interface connected to the computer?
If I choose MADI, why not opt for the MADIface XT II? Connect it to the three M-32s. Would the absence of a third optical connector on the MADIface XT II be a major issue?
Then I can connect the interface to the computer and use a DAW to apply filters and route the signal. Another alternative is the HDSPe AoX-M, but it is more oriented towards AVB.
In principle, it's possible to forego the requirements for TotalMix FX and Room EQ and do everything via the DAW.
No, I don't have a B&W Nautilus; I have a DIY.

8 (edited by ramses 2024-08-01 17:03:04)

Re: Help me to choose products

I explained already in post #2 that
- the FX in TotalMix FX and Room EQ need a recording interface with a 2nd FPGA where this is supported and
- that the DxO doesn't support FX, it is designed for other purposes (lots of channels, format converter)

If you insist in using the M32 Pro II DA and want to get 2x32ch@192kHz, then you
- need to choose a combination of MADI optical and MADI coaxial (limited to 100 m, no galvanic isolation)
  as these cards have internal two transceiver, but each of them can only handle 16 channels@192 kHz
  therefore at 192kHz a mix of optical and coaxial (BNC) connection is needed
- on top you also need a separate AD converter separate.

I think the M-1620 won't have worse converter, wait for the specs. Therefore my proposal to get this unit.
There you have AD and DA in one device and could connect everything via MADI optical with galvanic isolation,
no mix of MADI optical and coax needed.
It could also be a plus to have four devices, then you can better place them in the room so that you do not need
too long copper cable to the amplifiers.

Recording Interface #1 (*)---MADI Bus #1 IN (optical)------------------------M-32 Pro II DA #1 ch 1..16 IN (only 16 of 32)
Recording Interface #1 (*)---MADI Bus #1 OUT (optical)----------------------M-32 Pro II DA #1 ch 1..16 OUT
Recording Interface #1 (*)---MADI Bus #3 OUT (coax. max 100m)----------M-32 Pro II DA #1 ch 17.32 OUT
Recording Interface #2 (*)---MADI Bus #1 OUT (optical)----------------------M-32 Pro II DA #2 ch 33-48 OUT
Recording Interface #2 (*)---MADI Bus #3 OUT (coax .max 100m)----------M-32 Pro II DA #2 ch 49-64 OUT

(*) Either HDSPe MADI FX or MADIface XT II
I prefer the HDSPe MADI FX, because
- it is PCIe and you want to use two cards
- it has an optimizing driver, that only allocates driver resource from the PC of ports in groups of 8.
If at least one port of a group of 8 is in use, then driver resources will be allocated for the 8 ports, otherwise not.

BR Ramses - UFX III, 12Mic, XTC, M-1620 Pro D, RayDAT, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, X10SRi-F, E5-1680v4, Win10

9 (edited by vinark 2024-08-01 16:48:37)

Re: Help me to choose products

Just my humble opinion, but I would deal with the crossover needs in another way, not a computer. To complicated and to much channel waste. Also any error in the setup, or just a glitch or hickup could destroy a speaker driver, for example sending low freq to a tweeter. If taken care of this in another way your needs will be more manageable. 16 in and 16 out

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632