1 Topic by bobmane (edited by bobmane 2025-03-06 04:02:57)

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Topic: Where to start RME User Forum ? FireWire & USB series VS ADI-2 & 2/4 P

I have known about RME and respected it for years but have not owned yet. This first post is centered on what makes most sense for my use case.

This is for tracking vocals using Logic/Mac. I also like the idea of including the best quality DAC to playback my DAW. I had a Benchmark Media DAC back in the day and it make a difference. I also had a Benchmark PRE420 - Microphone Pre that was ultra clean and liked it.

I will use the M149 and the H47tube. This is why I like clean sometime because the mics sound so good as is.

I currently have Antelope Discreet 4 (original unit) and Apollo Twin X. I have been using Antelope for a while and just got into UAD trying out their Unison plugin workflow.

Given my current goal to get best quality vocal takes in DAW I have been on a month long rabbit hole of gear options galore. I have a fair amount of experience but I decided to look anew at latest greatest. I have been demoing and doing exhaustive reading / testing. Having come down to a broad compass reading of Dirty/Vibe VS Pristine/Clean and points in between. I found I love the vibe stuff but I equally or possibly more love the clean for my current vocal goals. I have developed a couple strategies

Given I am covered in the mic arena, I figured instead of getting one or two channel strip, a few 19" options or a rack of 500...I could start with my conversion and add gear on top of that as needed.

1. track some super clean stuff via MIC>RME-PRES
2. and then track some other colors via e.g. MIC>BAE1073MP (or other)>RME
3. and then track some other colors via MIC>RME>ADAT from RME > to other (like UAD)

So when I saw the ADI-2 & 2/4 P and the ADI-2 Pro FS R Black Edition I thought it could be the perfect vocal tracking rig and the DAC adds value. I also liked them VS others in that category because some others don't have mic/line in like these do. Not sure how many folks use those units in that way VS FireWire & USB series. I have always used full size interfaces but not sure if that is needed here + alot of it comes down to the specs of various RME. I dont need tons of i/o but not opposed to it. But will not be tracking drums or bands just vocals.

So my questions are:

- is tracking vocals just as reasonable via ADI-2 & 2/4 P or the ADI-2 Pro FS R Black Edition as using the typical RME audio interfaces designed for pro audio per say.

- are pres, ADC and DAC the same in all RME (of course, all RME that include all of those 3) or are there big differences. 

- any recommendations as good models to consider?

2 Reply by waedi (edited by waedi 2025-03-06 06:55:14)

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Re: Where to start RME User Forum ? FireWire & USB series VS ADI-2 & 2/4 P

Don't you want to listen a backing track and your own voice in a headphone during recording ?

ADI-2 don't have Totalmix monitoring software. You would have to mix the headphone mix in the DAW and this with huge latency compared to Totalmix where direct monitoring of your mic signal happens in near zero-latency.

My voting point goes to the Babyface Pro FS, it has top notch converter quality, comes with Totalmix and is small and lightweight, good for mobile use.

M1-Tahoe, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

3 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2025-03-06 07:23:27)

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Re: Where to start RME User Forum ? FireWire & USB series VS ADI-2 & 2/4 P

What is your budget (approx.)?

What type and how many I/O ports do you need to connect stuff in parallel?
- Mic inputs
- Inst inputs
- Analog line inputs
- Analog line outputs
- MIDI I/O
- AES I/O
- MADI I/O

Do you plan to connect external preamps via ADAT or MADI?

Overview recording interfaces / Excel comparison sheet

As a basement I recommend a RME recording interface with TotalMix FX to be more flexible in terms of routing, connecting external gear and direct monitoring on the recording interface in near-realtime. A reference converter or other converter to get more high quality analog ports or the special uniq feature of the reference converters for monitoring / headphone connection you can add as an option.

I created an Excel sheet for comparing different RME USB recording interfaces, which could assist you in the selection process. You find it in this blog article, see this sticky posting: https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=35156

The blog article contains maybe also some interesting general information about RME interfaces:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ent … ces-en-de/

Combination of recording interface and reference converter

An overview about the reference converter you can find here on forum and in my blog more verbose, explaining features, etc:
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.php?id=32506
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … ses-EN-DE/

The best option is to combine RME recording interface and reference converter.
Here an example from my blog how to integrate a reference converter into your recording solution:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … ses-EN-DE/

The ADI-2 Pro FS R BE and ADI-2/4 Pro SE have two analog inputs for connecting a mic preamp.

On the other hand the flagship interfaces like UFX II and UFX III also have the AKM AK4490 converter of the former reference converter ADI-2 Pro FS. They also give you RoomEQ and Crossfeed but are otherwise missing some special features of the reference converters.

As initially mentioned: if you tell your buget and number of I/O ports needed its possible to make a good proposal to you.

BR Ramses - HDSPe MADI FX, M-1620 Pro D, 12Mic, UFX III, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, Nuendo 15, Win10 IoT Ent

4 Reply by bobmane (edited by bobmane 2025-03-06 07:45:13)

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Re: Where to start RME User Forum ? FireWire & USB series VS ADI-2 & 2/4 P

Thanks for the feedback

OK so ADI-2 Pro FS R BE and ADI-2/4 Pro SE have better ADC and DAC than Apollo Twin X (not gen 2) and Antelope Discreet 4 (original) correct?

If so, the idea was since I am only tracking one lead vocal track at a time I would plug mic in like i said:
1. track some super clean stuff via MIC>RME-PRE
2. and then track some other colors via e.g. MIC>BAE1073MP (or other)>RME
3. and then track some other colors via MIC>RME>ADAT from RME > to other (like UAD)
I assumed 1 would track into either of the ADI-2 Pro FS R BE or ADI-2/4 Pro SE Analog Inputs via xlr and 2 would via same input via trs/Line In from my external pre.
This assumes those 2 inputs are best qual and they work in the manner I am outlining...as regular combo inputs direct to the ADC If they are it would be great.
3. would also go direct in clean to the ADC and be routed to Apollo to use its plugins.
I assume that just tracking I could use an aggregate device in OSX and hear music in headphone but you pointing out no Totalmix is not the greatest deal that is for sure.
I like the RME interfaces but I was trying to get a free DAC out of the deal while being able to track single vocal takes into daw as outlined. Not sure if it will work. As I said this all assumes it is worth the effort because RME is a high % better ADC and DAC than the units I have. If it is actually minor not worth it. Babyface is cool but limited I/o if I went that route I'd probably upgrade to a bigger one.

Kid of comes down to can I hack  the ADI-2 Pro FS R BE or ADI-2/4 Pro SE workflow that doesn't have Totalmix and is it worth the effort because of insanely great ADC and DAC. For example I could get Burl adc and dac but it is twice and much and some say RME is as good as Burl or other top contenders. Of course I would not know because I am not deep into those kind of specs. I dont even know if it would be better to just get one of the top tier Antelope or Apollo because it is not clear even their highest end ones are any different then the lower end. So I am looking for something that has ultimate premium ADC and DAC and I can use it by itself and also by sending its digital out wherever (like my other interfaces...thereby avoiding the conversion and pres on those)

5 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2025-03-06 08:33:55)

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Re: Where to start RME User Forum ? FireWire & USB series VS ADI-2 & 2/4 P

> OK so ADI-2 Pro FS R BE and ADI-2/4 Pro SE have better ADC and DAC than Apollo Twin X (not gen 2)
> and Antelope Discreet 4 (original) correct?

I wouldn't generalize it this way, it is not only the DAC chip itself that makes the sound.
Also the analog stages and the overall design plays a role.

At the end RME offers the best bundle of
- solid, well-designed HW
- performant and stable drivers
- well-designed and mature DSP mixer TotalMix FX which is IMHO the best what's available on the market
- excellent manuals

Can you please make it a little easier for us telling explicitly the number of ports that you think you require in parallel without having to unplug/replug which is tedious work?

My gut feeling is, that a Babyface Pro FS is too little in the number of I/O that it provides.
If you want to add a preamp via ADAT, then you can't integrate a reference converter anymore into the concept.

I would recommend you something in the range of this .. to have something to discuss ...

A) a combination of UCX II and ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

B) UFX II alone or optional in combination of ADI-2 Pro FS R BE

The major difference here with the UFX II is for example
- the number of Mic Pres (4)  that can also be used as Inst inputs.
- that you have besides AES, two ADAT ports for connecting other devices digitally

As mentioned the UFX II has already the converters of ADI-2 Pro FS (former product), AK4490.

You still didn't tell your budget, to get a more concrete what the setup may cost or where the limits are.

bobmane wrote:

Kid of comes down to can I hack  the ADI-2 Pro FS R BE or ADI-2/4 Pro SE workflow that doesn't have Totalmix and is it worth the effort because of insanely great ADC and DAC. For example I could get Burl adc and dac but it is twice and much and some say RME is as good as Burl or other top contenders. Of course I would not know because I am not deep into those kind of specs. I dont even know if it would be better to just get one of the top tier Antelope or Apollo because it is not clear even their highest end ones are any different then the lower end. So I am looking for something that has ultimate premium ADC and DAC and I can use it by itself and also by sending its digital out wherever (like my other interfaces...thereby avoiding the conversion and pres on those)

RME provides transparent AD/DA conversion which means high quality conversion without adding any "mojo".
Whether other converters make you more happy is questionable.

For the flexibility of monitoring I would work with the RME solution and TotalMix FX.
Adding more interfaces with aggregate device would be possible but then you have to route through the DAW with much higher latency for all of your monitoring flows (no good design/setup).

Some considerations

- Babyface Pro FS is most likely too small.
- UCX II might fit, but has only one AES, one ADAT I/O (and SPDIF (c) I/O), not sure whether this is sufficient.
- UFX II would be more on the safe side for you giving you a solid mix of type and number of I/O ports.
   At the same time delivers AKM converter AK4490 which might be for your "taste".

Then it is an option whether you want one of the reference converters
- ADI-2 Pro FS R BE or
- ADI-2/4 Pro SE
additionally for several purposes: monitoring, headphpnes, analog connection of external Mic Pres (up to two).

If you want to digitize vinyl, then have a look at the ADI-2/4 Pro SE special options in terms of internal high quality RIAA decoder.
The ADI-2/4 Pro SE also adds a 5th analog stage which expands the volume range in which the DAC can automatically provide optimum SNR/dynamic by the feature auto ref level. Useful if you listen with different volumes.

The effect of auto ref level you can see in my Excel here: https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/attachme … v005-xlsx/

Prices

To get an idea about prices:
UCX II                   € 1329
UFX II                   € 2099
ADI-2 Pro FS R BE  € 1599
ADI-2/4 Pro SE      € 2085

Adding an ARC USB can be useful for operation of TM FX (recording interface):
ARC USB               €  144

BR Ramses - HDSPe MADI FX, M-1620 Pro D, 12Mic, UFX III, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, Nuendo 15, Win10 IoT Ent
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Re: Where to start RME User Forum ? FireWire & USB series VS ADI-2 & 2/4 P

Can you please make it a little easier for us telling explicitly the number of ports that you think you require in parallel without having to unplug/replug which is tedious work?

I have the Apollo Twin and Discreet 4 both are not full size. So if I bought another interface I would not go full size. You have verified that UCX II would be good with option of ADI-2 Pro FS R BE for as DAC correct? That would be nice, I thought I could somehow beat the system and get it all from ADI-2 Pro FS R BE. I now see that is not the case. But the UCX II could also be overkill to record single vocal takes. Another issue I noticed RME has no XLR or XLR/TRS combo on back on units (another reason I liked ADI-2 Pro) they are all on front. Anyway, the platform could still work but it would a a smaller interface.


You still didn't tell your budget, to get a more concrete what the setup may cost or where the limits are.
I dont want to spend more than 3-4K for ADC and DAC and hoped I could somehow get top class ADC and DAC but I now see that is kind of tight budget.

UCX II                   € 1329
ADI-2 Pro FS R BE  € 1599
could work
but how would ADI-2 Pro FS R BE  integrate into totalmix
or upgrade to AKM converter AK4490 but plus we are back to the question is AKM converter AK4490 really that much % better? You seemed to indicate it is somewhat subjective. I watched a few videos where people were on fire claimed they are "the best ever period" but you dont seem to take as strident of a stand for real world difference.

7 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2025-03-06 20:21:49)

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Re: Where to start RME User Forum ? FireWire & USB series VS ADI-2 & 2/4 P

There are minor differences, the question is whether these are really decisive for the final result.

I've also heard this "oh and ah" about the reference converters after people from other recording solutions (including Apollo or Antelope) have switched to them.

What nobody knows, however, is to what extent the tests were really valid, i.e., psychoacoustic phenomena were excluded by blind or double-blind tests.

My personal experience is limited to an A/B comparison between Accuphase E-600 Class A amplifier with built-in Accuphase digital D/A module and ADI-2 Pro FS (older version with AK4490 converters) and .. of course, that I am really satisfied with the RME products.

The differences in sound were subtle, but I have to admit that I don't have an acoustically optimized room. What was clearly recognizable, however, was that the ADI-2 Pro FS sounded more transparent. The Accuphase DAC sounded like an ADI-2 Pro FS in NOS mode (i.e., with a decline in treble at single speed in the audible range up to 20 kHz).

A Studio Pro here in the studio, KaiS, who is very interested in the Reference Converter product range and is very active in the forum, has carried out many tests and compared the D/A filters of the ADI-2 Pro FS. According to his experience, percussive instruments can be better located in the sound image with the Slow filter. However, Slow also has a small treble cut in the audible range up to 20 kHz at single speed, but this can also be corrected with the PEQ. There are different settings for 44.1 and 48 kHz.

The default settings use the SD Sharp DA filter, which also offers the most linear frequency response at single speed, which is recommended for studio recordings and archiving.

With recording interfaces, even if they have implemented the AK4490, there is no switching option for D/A filters, which makes the reference converters interesting for monitoring.

KaiS also noted that the D/A filters of the ADI-2/4 Pro SE, with ESS chip, are implemented differently for those with a similar designation, so it was a different D/A filter, not slow, that he preferred for monitoring.

Yes, there are differences. Basically, however, I would say that RME designs all its devices very well and that the analog stage is also good and that the converter and analog stage deliver a very good sound.

If you want to be absolutely sure about conversion quality, talk to your supplier and compare UFX II with UCX II and ADI-2 Pro FS with your ears / room / equipment (preamps) and send back the device which you do not need. Online ships are aware of, that all customers can't travel to them and might have special demands and need to try it out in their premises.

I would definitely look to get a combination of recording interface and reference converter.

I already sent you a link at the top of the post on how to best integrate the reference converters into the setup by connecting via AES or ADAT (optical SPDIF). I would also connect via USB to enable remote control via ADI-2 remote software.
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/Ent … our-Setup/

In case you are interested, this is my setup:
https://www.tonstudio-forum.de/blog/ent … iii-en-de/

BR Ramses - HDSPe MADI FX, M-1620 Pro D, 12Mic, UFX III, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, Nuendo 15, Win10 IoT Ent
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Re: Where to start RME User Forum ? FireWire & USB series VS ADI-2 & 2/4 P

I found some references in terms of converter AD/DA filter.

For recording purposes better use the standard filter to ensure linear frequency response, especially at single speed (44.1. 48).

For playback / monitoring:

https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 61#p228361
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 10#p224710
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 61#p224661
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 72#p223572
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 29#p223529
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 40#p223340
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 73#p218673
https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 98#p212998

BR Ramses - HDSPe MADI FX, M-1620 Pro D, 12Mic, UFX III, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, Nuendo 15, Win10 IoT Ent
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Re: Where to start RME User Forum ? FireWire & USB series VS ADI-2 & 2/4 P

You diagram makes perfect sense. I understand the RME offerings now. I will condenser ADI-2 Pro FS R Black Edition and possibly also adding Fireface UFX II thank you for the help. Great information.

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Re: Where to start RME User Forum ? FireWire & USB series VS ADI-2 & 2/4 P

bobmane wrote:

You diagram makes perfect sense. I understand the RME offerings now. I will condenser ADI-2 Pro FS R Black Edition and possibly also adding Fireface UFX II thank you for the help. Great information.

You're welcome :-)

BR Ramses - HDSPe MADI FX, M-1620 Pro D, 12Mic, UFX III, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, Nuendo 15, Win10 IoT Ent