1 Topic by dokev (edited by dokev 2025-08-31 11:15:16)

  • dokev
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Topic: Help with Standalone Mode MIDI (UFX+)

Hi there,

I've set up a MIDI controller to select certain submixes and control the faders of a selection of channels going into those submixes. Broadly speaking, this is using

  • CC 104 - 117 on MIDI Channels 14 and 15 for output submix selection

  • CC 102 - 117 on MIDI Channels 1 and 2 for input faders

and this works perfectly when connected to my computer with TotalMix launched. However, this setup doesn't do anything when in standalone mode. I've

  • Updated to the latest available UFX+ firmware

  • Enabled MIDI control in the TotalMix options menu

  • Selected MIDI Port 1 for MIDI control within TotalMix

  • Selected to "Store current state into device" in the TotalMix menu

  • Enabled the Mackie Protocol in the TotalMix options menu

  • Selected MIDI 1 for Standalone MIDI on the unit's Options > Hardware > Standalone MIDI menu

  • Verified that the unit is receiving the MIDI messages (per the light on the front next to IN 1)

  • I've even physically disconnected the thunderbolt cable, just in case the mere presence of it somehow throws you out of "standalone" mode

But my MIDI mapping doesn't work. I believe, per the manual, that the operations I'm trying to control should be available over MIDI in Standalone Mode:

Still many functions, and especially the most important functions to control the Fireface UFX+,
are implemented in hardware, thus available also in stand-alone mode:
All faders and pans of the first and third row
 Mute of the input signal per channel
 Ganging via 'Select'
Choice of the routing destination, i.e. the current submix
 Sending of LED and display data to the MIDI controller

Theories/Possible Red Herrings:

  • The required MIDI messages are different in Standalone mode (but if so, what are they?)

  • In TotalMix, the CC numbers for channels aren't absolute: if a channel is removed from the mixer, all channels to the right are now associated with the prior CC number minus 1. Is it possible that in standalone mode these numbers are absolute?

I'm hoping there is something simple and/or stupid that I'm missing, but I can't work it out: any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

  • waedi
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Re: Help with Standalone Mode MIDI (UFX+)

dokev wrote:

[*]Selected to "Store current state into device" in the TotalMix menu[/*]

Do you recall this slot ?

M1-GoldenGate, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue
  • dokev
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Re: Help with Standalone Mode MIDI (UFX+)

Yep, I've loaded the Setup that the state was stored into and the MIDI messages still don't have any effect.

I've also tried disabling the Mackie Protocol, just to see if that does anything: it didn't.

  • waedi
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Re: Help with Standalone Mode MIDI (UFX+)

dokev wrote:

Is it possible that in standalone mode these numbers are absolute?

Is there a reason not to test this ? Should be easy to find out, right ?

M1-GoldenGate, Madiface Pro, Digiface USB, Babyface silver and blue

5 Reply by ramses (edited by ramses 2025-08-31 10:55:26)

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Re: Help with Standalone Mode MIDI (UFX+)

I am not using MIDI control, but maybe a few little things from manual chapters
- 28.6 Stand-Alone MIDI Control
- 28.5 MIDI Control

Did you take a look into these manual chapter already?

1. You have to activate MIDI Control mode on the device:
    Options -> HW Options/Diagnosis -> Standalone MIDI
    Turn it off if not needed; the manual explains why.

2. Not all functions are available in stand-alone mode, as some of them aren't hardware but software routines.
    You find some information about what's possible in manual chapter 28.6.

3. Did you also read this information from manual chapter 28.5 "MIDI control"?
    The hex value is standardized; the key is not. If it doesn’t work try all notes one octave lower.

BR Ramses - HDSPe MADI FX, M-1620 Pro D, 12Mic, UFX III, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, Nuendo 15, Win10 IoT Ent

6 Reply by dokev (edited by dokev 2025-08-31 12:05:10)

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Re: Help with Standalone Mode MIDI (UFX+)

waedi wrote:

Is there a reason not to test this ? Should be easy to find out, right ?

Mostly the reason I hadn't tested it was that it was already late when I posted. I've just done so though, and I don't think this theory is correct. I tried to select the first non-Main submix (AN 3/4) with CC 106 on Channel 13: from my experiments within TotalMix CC102 + 103 selects global trim, CC104 + 105 selects AN 1/2 (configured as Main on my unit), and 106 + 107 gets AN 3/4. Since nothing is hidden in the mixer prior to AN 3/4, I'd expect that if there is an absolute/relative thing going on, CC 106 would be both the absolute and relative CC number for AN 3/4. I then used CC 102 on Channel 1 to adjust the fader of input AN 1/2 in AN 3/4.

This works with TotalMix, and does not work in Standalone mode. To sanity check the setup, I used Channel 1 CC 7 to control the main volume, as this is unambiguously supported per forum posts. This does work, so I think I can rule out there being something wrong with the setup as a whole.

I'm left thinking one of three things is going on:

  • The expected MIDI messages are different in standalone mode, though I'm not sure where to start to discover what they are if so.

  • The manual isn't accurate in describing submix selection and channel faders as MIDI controllable in standalone mode

  • There is some glaringly obvious thing that I'm missing

What's odd is that the prior section in the manual to the Standalone MIDI one describes how the messages should work (in hexadecimal, bold messages are my additions)

Furthermore all faders of all three rows can be controlled via simple Control Change commands. The format for the Control Change commands is:
Bx yy zz
x = MIDI channel
yy = control number
zz = value
...
Note: Sending MIDI strings requires to use programmer's logic for the MIDI channel, starting
with 0 for channel 1 and ending with 15 for channel 16.
...
16 Controller numbers are used: 102 up to 117 (= hex 66 to 75). With these 16 Controllers (=
faders) and 4 MIDI channels each per row, up to 64 faders can be controlled per row (as required by the HDSPe MADI).
...
Select submix (fader) in third row:
- channel 1/2: BC 68/69 xx [I.E. Channel 12+1, CC 104/105
- channel 3/4: BC 6A/6B xx [I.E. Channel 12+1, CC 106/107
etc.

This lines up with exactly what I've done, and there's no indication in the Standalone MIDI section that messages should be different here. The only thing that might mean it is that I can think of is that

The second row (software playback) is skipped

might mean that from the pov of the unit in standalone mode, MIDI messages intended for the hardware outputs (row 3 in TotalMix) should be expressed as if they're row 2 in Standalone, which I suppose I might test out now, but it's pretty awkward having the MIDI spec shift between two different modes of operational.

ramses wrote:

I am not using MIDI control, but maybe two little things from manual chapter 28.6 "Stand-Alone MIDI Control".
Did you take a look into this manual chapter already?

1. You have to activate MIDI Control mode on the device:
    -> Options -> HW Options/Diagnosis -> Standalone MIDI
    Turn it off if not needed, the manual explains why.

2. Not all functions are available in stand-alone mode, as some of them aren't hardware but software routines.
    You find some information about what's possible in manual chapter 28.6.

Yep: in this and my first post I quoted the bits from the manual that suggest that what I'm doing is meant to be supported, and is following the procedure described in the manual.

ramses wrote:

3. Did you also read this information from manual chapter 28.5 "MIDI control"?
    The hex value is standardized; the key is not. If it doesn’t work try all notes one octave lower.

I don't think this is applicable to my situation, as I'm just trying to control things that have associated CC numbers, rather than things that are controlled via MIDI note messages.

7 Reply by MC

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Re: Help with Standalone Mode MIDI (UFX+)

Fader control via CC numbers is NOT described in the chapter Stand-alone mode and thus not available in that mode. What is available is precisely listed in chapter 28.6. That is mostly Mackie Protocol.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

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  • dokev
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Re: Help with Standalone Mode MIDI (UFX+)

OK, well that explains it, but I wouldn't agree that what is available is precisely listed. This is part of what is described in the manual

28.6 Stand-Alone MIDI Control wrote:

Still many functions, and especially the most important functions to control the Fireface UFX+,
are implemented in hardware, thus available also in stand-alone mode:
 All faders and pans of the first and third row
...

The only other direct reference to control of faders is in the prior section

28.5 MIDI Control wrote:

Furthermore all faders of all three rows can be controlled via simple Control Change commands. The format for the Control Change commands is:
Bx yy zz
x = MIDI channel
yy = control number
zz = value
The first row in TotalMix is addressed by MIDI channels 1 up to 4, the middle row by channels 5
up to 8 and the bottom row by channels 9 up to 12.
16 Controller numbers are used: 102 up to 117 (= hex 66 to 75). With these 16 Controllers (=
faders) and 4 MIDI channels each per row, up to 64 faders can be controlled per row (as required by the HDSPe MADI).

I don't think it's irrational to infer from these two sections of the manual that you can control faders with these CC numbers in standalone mode. This quoted section of 28.5 immediately follows a discussion of MIDI note control that (as a I understand it) comes from the Mackie Protocol and is the only direct documentation of MIDI fader control: it's ambiguous that this CC discussion is not actually documentation of the Mackie Protocol, and is in fact an orthogonal/separate RME MIDI implementation that coexists(?) with the Mackie Protocol. 28.6 goes onto to specifically list Faders as something under Mackie Protocol, but due to the prior ambiguity, it's not clear that this isn't associated with these CC numbers. I think the documentation could be improved a bit here.

Nevertheless:

  • Can Mackie Protocol fader control be mimicked by MIDI messages, and is the means to do so documented anywhere?

  • is there a barrier to fully documenting the MIDI specification of TotalMix and the standalone unit? It's quite unusual to have to do this much (error-prone) inference

  • Is it possible that RME would support CC control of faders/submix selection in standalone mode in the future?