Topic: Vector Audio Scope Display Request

It would be greatly appreciated in a future upgrade that M/S decoding be displayed in a vertical orientation the same as non-M/S decoding.

At the moment one is vertical and the other is horizontal, makes a lot more visual sense to both be in the same orientation.

See the images below displaying the current state.

https://imgur.com/a/BlWMp4K


Thank you

Re: Vector Audio Scope Display Request

I don't understand what is wrong.

I listen to a track from Michel Portal, Mutinerie, from Dockings.
This is left/right signal as usual. Screenshot at 01:00.

http://www.rawac.de/bilder/RME/Links_Rechs.jpg

Then i generate a file, same take, with middle/side signal.

http://www.rawac.de/bilder/RME/Mutinerie.jpg

Top, grey: left/right signal
Bottom, blue: middle/side signal
Switch the Vector Audio Scope [Decode M/S] to ON.
Listen to the modified take.

http://www.rawac.de/bilder/RME/Mitte_Seite.jpg

It's not easy to hit the same time exactly.
But the orientations of the Vector Audio Scope are the same.
Music mostly in the center is vertikal.

Ralf
(ADI-2 Pro FS with ThinkPad Yoga L13, Dynaudio Focus 600 XD or Focal Clear — and a lot of Jazz)

3 (edited by GolfPutter 2025-12-03 02:30:20)

Re: Vector Audio Scope Display Request

What you have done rawac is create a stereo file out of the m/s content, hence the vertical orientation during playback. If you setup your DigiCheck with the same layout and settings as mine (see first post) and playback stereo content you will be able to replicate what is happening to me.

Note: im not seperating m/s content, my layout is for viewing stereo and m/s content at the same time from a single audio file / source

Ive replicated the Michel Portal, Mutinerie, from Dockings at the 1min for your reference. See the below image.

https://imgur.com/a/6HpXiHS

4 (edited by rawac 2025-12-03 08:14:51)

Re: Vector Audio Scope Display Request

To keep it as simple as possible, assuming no correction for different microphones and amplifiers, the following applies
L = M/2 + S/2
R = M/2 - S/2
or, the other way around
M = L/2 + R/2
S = L/2 - R/2 
Mathematically, this is a rotation of 45°.

You also switch on X/Y mode. This is a gimmick that people use to create digital audio files that are not for listening, but for drawing nice graphics in a Vector Audio Scope.  To ensure that the coordinates +1/+1 are at the top right and -1/-1 at the bottom left, a 45% rotation is required, because normally in the Vector Audio Scope, correlation = +1 (+1/+1 to -1/-1, S=0) is a vertical line. Both switches On at the same time means 2 x 45°, that's 90°.

M/S and L/R are both 2 channels, stereo. For L/R stereo, channel 1 is usually L and channel 2 is R, see Input Selection.  Except if you have a microphone setup using the M/S technique, then channel 1 is M and channel 2 is S. However, there is no way for software to recognize which microphone setup the sound engineer uses. The sound engineer must tell the software this itself; this is what the Decode M/S switch is for. It is not an Encode M/S switch.

In my humble opinion, there are two possibilities.
On the one hand: Your source software calculates the M/S signal on the fly and delivers 4 channels.
Input first Vector Audio Scope
L = 1
R = 2
Setting Decode M/S = Off
Input second Vector Audio Scope
L = 3
R = 4
Setting Decode M/S = On
On the other hand:
RME adds a new function: Encode M/S. Then both Vector Audio Scopes would display the same thing. For example, correlation = +1 (L=R and S=0 ) as a vertical line.

In both cases: what's the point of having the same graph twice, just calculated differently? In your setup both Vector Audio Scopes show exactly the same figure, only rotated by 90°.

And why do you switch on X/Y mode when viewing real audio recordings at all?

I still don't understand the request.

Ralf
(ADI-2 Pro FS with ThinkPad Yoga L13, Dynaudio Focus 600 XD or Focal Clear — and a lot of Jazz)

Re: Vector Audio Scope Display Request

Unfortunately rawac your forgetting that RME hardware / software isn't solely used for listening to music, however its used extensively in post production settings.

The audio from the following videos demonstrate exactly why is so important to not solely rely on just Stereo (L+R) Vector Audio Scopes because otherwise you would never see the constant phase fluctuations in the Mid / Side audio.

(ignore the video content as its purely to demonstrate the audio content easily on this forum)

The Stereo phase is in the +99 to +100 range but Mid / Side is constantly moving.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szGxq3pvJPQ

The Stereo phase is in the +99 to +100 range but Mid / Side is in the extreme negative range
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P52R-vge8WA


Regarding the X/Y mode, humans don't think in 45degree angles they think in left right and up down. Audio faders are left and right not -45degrees and +45degrees. Having one scope in vertical and the other in horizontal is jarring both visually and mentally.

Re: Vector Audio Scope Display Request

I do not understand, what probem do you have.

If Mid is stronger than Side then it is correct that the Scope pattern is horizontal. What else would you expect? In case Mid would be weaker then Side, the Scope pattern would be vertical.

FF UCX II, Digiface USB, Babyface Pro FS

Re: Vector Audio Scope Display Request

Kubrak wrote:

I do not understand, what probem do you have.

If Mid is stronger than Side then it is correct that the Scope pattern is horizontal. What else would you expect? In case Mid would be weaker then Side, the Scope pattern would be vertical.

as per my original post,

It would be greatly appreciated in a future upgrade that M/S decoding be displayed in a vertical orientation the same as non-M/S decoding.

Re: Vector Audio Scope Display Request

GolfPutter wrote:

Unfortunately rawac your forgetting that RME hardware / software isn't solely used for listening to music, however its used extensively in post production settings. ...

I haven't forgotten that. I played back an existing recording because I don't have a bidirectional microphone. Generating the file was my "post" production.

The [Decode M/S] option is there to ensure that, when M is on channel 1 and S is on channel 2, the center is vertical as usual. Only then does it make sense to enable the option; during recording, post production and listening.

If you send the two signals to a normal oscilloscope, L to the horizontal axis and R to the vertical axis, it shows a diagonal line when L = R, i.e., correlation = 1.

http://www.rawac.de/bilder/RME/AVS1.jpg

In the case of an M/S arrangement, however, M = vertical axis and S = horizontal axis, a vertical line is created from the center (M changes, S remains 0).

http://www.rawac.de/bilder/RME/AVS2.jpg

GolfPutter wrote:

...
Regarding the X/Y mode, humans don't think in 45degree angles they think in left right and up down. Audio faders are left and right not -45degrees and +45degrees. Having one scope in vertical and the other in horizontal is jarring both visually and mentally.

As GolfPutter already wrote, this fits better and is more intuitive. What comes from the center is displayed as coming from above.
That's why, in Audio Vector Scopes, the oscilloscope tube was rotated by 45° (before the digital age), which was easy to do mechanically, but is stupid in a digital device with a pixel screen. It is easier to leave the screen normal and calculate the rotation.

http://www.rawac.de/bilder/RME/AVS3.jpg

If you switch Digicheck setting [Decode M/S] to On, the graphic rotates 45° back.

http://www.rawac.de/bilder/RME/AVS4.jpg

If you absolutely want the classic oscilloscope display, for whatever reason, you can switch on [X/Y-Mode]. DigiCheck then sends L to the horizontal axis and R to the vertical axis. If you enable [X/Y-Mode] too, it rotates another 45° more.

http://www.rawac.de/bilder/RME/AVS5.jpg

If RME would fulfill the above request to turn this up, the result would be:

http://www.rawac.de/bilder/RME/AVS6.jpg

Absolutely identical to L/R Audio Vector Scope (see above). In my opinion, makes not really sense. If 2 Vector Audio Scopes do display different shapes from the same input, it's because other options in the Audio Vector Scope Settings are different.

In the first screenshot from GolfPutter the shapes are equal:

http://www.rawac.de/bilder/RME/AVS7.jpg http://www.rawac.de/bilder/RME/AVS8.jpg

Only the calculation of the correlation -0.05 goes wrong, because Digicheck uses the formula for M/S input, but the input is L/R.

As an aside: Vinyl stereo records are actually also M/S arrangements, only rotated: M is horizontal, S is vertical. This is because mono came first and was recorded horizontally. But in the turntable's stereo pickup the coils are already arranged at 45° angles, so that it directly outputs L and an R signals. This also applies to many radio signals, so that old or simple mono receivers continue to work.

Ralf
(ADI-2 Pro FS with ThinkPad Yoga L13, Dynaudio Focus 600 XD or Focal Clear — and a lot of Jazz)

9

Re: Vector Audio Scope Display Request

This is the most important point:

rawac wrote:

The [Decode M/S] option is there to ensure that, when M is on channel 1 and S is on channel 2, the center is vertical as usual. Only then does it make sense to enable the option; during recording, post production and listening.

This feature was exclusively added to allow checking the stereo image of an ongoing recording in M/S mic arrangement, where the signal is not yet decoded. It was never thought to be there to encode a stereo signal and then look at it. I also don't think that is useful at all. As user rawac already pointed out you got mislead by a (then wrong) phase meter. Using your two YouTube examples the Vector Scope shows basically the same thing with and without M/S active, and the M/S mode phase meter is invalid for a stereo input signal.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Vector Audio Scope Display Request

MC wrote:

This is the most important point:

rawac wrote:

The [Decode M/S] option is there to ensure that, when M is on channel 1 and S is on channel 2, the center is vertical as usual. Only then does it make sense to enable the option; during recording, post production and listening.

This feature was exclusively added to allow checking the stereo image of an ongoing recording in M/S mic arrangement, where the signal is not yet decoded. It was never thought to be there to encode a stereo signal and then look at it. I also don't think that is useful at all. As user rawac already pointed out you got mislead by a (then wrong) phase meter. Using your two YouTube examples the Vector Scope shows basically the same thing with and without M/S active, and the M/S mode phase meter is invalid for a stereo input signal.

Thank you for clearing up the confusion Matthias it is much appreciated.

I have since changed my layout in light of the above information.

https://imgur.com/a/Wx3jKSg