Topic: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

Hi,

I know the ADI-2 DAC FS comes with two headphone sockets, one is called headphone-out another is IEM-out.  Can I plug in two headphones, one to each, and listen music together with another person at the same time?  If yes and in this way what's the difference with ADI-2 Pro FS which claims to have 2-set of headphone amp?

Thanks.

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

In the manual of the ADI-2 DAC in chapter 31.16 Block Diagram you can see, how the two sockets are connected. Both are sourced from the only one digital to analog converter. There is no possibility to adjust the volume separately (except the Hi/Lo setting for the 1/4" TRS).

If you look at the block diagram in the ADI-2 Pro manual (17.2 Preamp and following, 34.6 Balanced Phones Mode) you can see the difference. Phones 1/2 and phones 3/4 have complete separated digital to analog converter and signal processing. Therefore each socket has own setting (volume, parametric EQ, loudness, crossfeed, ...), even balanced phones can be used.

Ralf
(ADI-2 Pro FS with ThinkPad Yoga L13, Dynaudio Focus 600 XD or Focal Clear — and a lot of Jazz)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

Thanks rawac.  Does that mean that I can still plug in two headphones to share the listening?  I don't expect any independent control.  I have not yet own a ADI-2 DAC, just checking the feature to make the decision.

4 (edited by rawac 2025-12-08 13:25:38)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

As long as you don't plug an EMI into the 1/4" jack, nothing will break, but one of the two headphones will either be too quiet or too loud, and there's nothing you can do about it. Look to the manual: Technical Specifications / Analog Outputs, the difference between the sockets is fixed to 3+7 = 10 db or 3+22 = 25 dB!

Ralf
(ADI-2 Pro FS with ThinkPad Yoga L13, Dynaudio Focus 600 XD or Focal Clear — and a lot of Jazz)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

Thanks rawac. I understood your point. Yes the difference is huge, bad news to me. It’s strange why a much cheaper DAC like Mojo can provide two headphone out for shared hearing, the much expensive RME cannot..

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

narkewoody wrote:

Thanks rawac.  Does that mean that I can still plug in two headphones to share the listening?  I don't expect any independent control.  I have not yet own a ADI-2 DAC, just checking the feature to make the decision.

I am not 100% sure whether the two phones output of ADI-2 DAC FS can operate at the same time.
But even if, then you should also be aware of, that the 2nd output is only for IEM headphones.

If you want to have the flexibility to use two normal headphones or if you would like to be able to compare two different headphones, then you need two separate headphone outputs like the ADI-2 Pro FS R BE and ADI-2/4 Pro SE offer.
Then you need two outputs with independent volume control that can stay plugged in, which allows you to make quick headphone changes by only changing them on your head. For such quick A/B comparisons, there is not time for plugging the cables additionally.

Those two models with two D/A converters for supporting two normal headphones also give you the ability to use balanced phones if you wish, where only the ADI-2/4 Pro has the new Pentaconn plug for balanced headphones.

BR Ramses - HDSPe MADI FX, M-1620 Pro D, 12Mic, UFX III, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, Nuendo 14, Win10 IoT Ent

7 (edited by rawac 2025-12-08 13:27:52)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

narkewoody wrote:

... It’s strange why a much cheaper DAC like Mojo can provide two headphone out for shared hearing, the much expensive RME cannot..

Please read the manual. Chapter 8.2 IEM Phones Output explains, why RME has incorporated this more complex and expensive feature.

The Mojo solution is the same as what such an adapter does.
https://m.media-amazon.com/images/I/51zpcMk6-LL._AC_SL1000_.jpg

Addendum:
In chapter 30.2 Analog Outputs is written:

Phones
As XLR, but:
...
Output: 6.3 mm TRS jack, unbalanced, stereo
Output level at 0 dBFS, High Power, load 100 Ohm or up: +22 dBu (10 V)
Output level at 0 dBFS, Low Power, load 8 Ohm or up: +7 dBu (1.73 V)
...
IEM
As Phones, but:
Output level at 0 dBFS: -3 dBu, 0.55 V
...

This information differs from the block diagram in chapter 31.16 (IEM -22 dB). I suspect that the correct difference is 7+3 = 10 dB or 22+3 = 25 dB. Still power factor 10 or 316.

Ralf
(ADI-2 Pro FS with ThinkPad Yoga L13, Dynaudio Focus 600 XD or Focal Clear — and a lot of Jazz)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

Thanks rawac for such informative details. I think I will take some time to read the manual, but not sure I can understand technique details. But I know 10 dB is already ten times difference and 20 is 20x. I am glad to know that to get the shared listening, I just need to get a 3.5mm one-to-two headphone jack, that’s great! I guess it will double the load, do you think the ADI-2 DAC can still afford to provide it?

And, do you know when I have a headphone (Currently I have a Sennheiser IE 500 Pro and HD 660S), what’s the key factor to determine which jack into which I should plug my headphone? I think it should not be the size of the plug because people can always convert it using adapters. I think it should base on the ohms of the headphones but I don't know any more exact rule.

It’s a pity that ADI-2 DAC does not provide balanced output, because I think the next headphone I will buy is the IE 900. Do you think the balanced output is something that can make a big difference?

Sorry for so many questions..

9 (edited by rawac 2025-12-08 19:33:25)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

narkewoody wrote:

Thanks rawac for such informative details. I think I will take some time to read the manual, but not sure I can understand technique details. But I know 10 dB is already ten times difference and 20 is 20x.

10 dB are 1 Bell = 1E1 = 10 = factor 10
20 db are 2 Bell = 1E2 = 10 x 10 = factor 100 
30 db are 3 Bell = 1E3 = 10 x 10 x 10 = factor 1000 
and so on ...

narkewoody wrote:

I am glad to know that to get the shared listening, I just need to get a 3.5mm one-to-two headphone jack, that’s great! I guess it will double the load, do you think the ADI-2 DAC can still afford to provide it?

Depends on the headphones. See diagrams in chapter 31.8 Extreme Power Charts. Put extremely simply, as long as both headphones are reasonably normal and the impedance is at least 16 ohms: yes (the Sennheiser are).

narkewoody wrote:

And, do you know when I have a headphone (Currently I have a Sennheiser IE 500 Pro and HD 660S), what’s the key factor to determine which jack into which I should plug my headphone? ... I think it should base on the ohms of the headphones but I don't know any more exact rule.

No. Please read the manual. Chapter 8.2 IEM Phones Output explains what the IEM output is made for. Your headphones arn't IEMs. It's all about efficiency.

narkewoody wrote:

Do you think the balanced output is something that can make a big difference?

No. Depends a little bit on the headphones. It will be somewhere between very difficult to detect and absolute no difference.

Ralf
(ADI-2 Pro FS with ThinkPad Yoga L13, Dynaudio Focus 600 XD or Focal Clear — and a lot of Jazz)

10 (edited by KaiS 2025-12-09 00:22:25)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

narkewoody wrote:

…Currently I have a Sennheiser IE 500 Pro and HD 660S),.

Plug the HD-660S (104 dB SPL /1V) into the 1/4” output and the IE 500 (126 dB SPL /1V) into the 1/8” IEM output.
This will give you about the same loudness on both ‘phones.

ADI-2 DAC’s 1/4” is 25 dB louder than the 1/8”.
IE 500 is 22 dB louder than 660S.
That’s just a nominal difference of 3 dB, not considered differences in sound.


BTW: ADI-2 doesn’t care much about load impedance by the ‘phones.
You can plug 2 or more ‘phones (e.g. 10 pairs of HD-660S) into one output, using y-adapters, no problem.

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

rawac wrote:

10 dB are 1 Bell = 1E1 = 10 = factor 10
20 db are 2 Bell = 1E2 = 10 x 10 = factor 100 
30 db are 3 Bell = 1E3 = 10 x 10 x 10 = factor 1000 
and so on ....

Thanks for the corrections. Yes, 20 dB is 100x, it’s just my head calculated it that wrong.

rawac wrote:

No. Please read the manual. Chapter 8.2 IEM Phones Output explains what the IEM output is made for. Your headphones arn't IEMs. It's all about efficiency.

It’s surprising to know that IE 500 is not an IEM. But when I bought them, they said IE stands for IEM and the whole IE series are IEM’s. I thought that sounded reasonable.

rawac wrote:

No. Depends a little bit on the headphones. It will be somewhere between very difficult to detect and absolute no difference.

Many thanks. Then I will not bother the balanced output anymore.

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

KaiS wrote:
narkewoody wrote:

…Currently I have a Sennheiser IE 500 Pro and HD 660S),.

Plug the HD-660S (104 dB SPL /1V) into the 1/4” output and the IE 500 (126 dB SPL /1V) into the 1/8” IEM output.
This will give you about the same loudness on both ‘phones.

ADI-2 DAC’s 1/4” is 25 dB louder than the 1/8”.
IE 500 is 22 dB louder than 660S.
That’s just a nominal difference of 3 dB, not considered differences in sound.


BTW: ADI-2 doesn’t care much about load impedance by the ‘phones.
You can plug 2 or more ‘phones (e.g. 10 pairs of HD-660S) into one output, using y-adapters, no problem.

KaiS, Many thanks for the calculation!

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

Who can tell me why it gets the following volts in the brackets in ADI-2 DAC's manual:

Output level at 0 dBFS, High Power, load 100 Ohm or up: +22 dBu (10 V)
Output level at 0 dBFS, Low Power, load 8 Ohm or up: +7 dBu (1.73 V)

I searched and found dBu should related to 0.775 V, so 22 dBu = 10E(22/10) * 0.775 = 10E2.2 * 0.775 = 122.8 V.  So what the 10 V means?

14 (edited by unpluggged 2025-12-09 07:57:45)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

narkewoody wrote:

I searched and found dBu should related to 0.775 V, so 22 dBu = 10E(22/10) * 0.775 = 10E2.2 * 0.775 = 122.8 V.  So what the 10 V means?

You searched in the wrong place. +22 dBu = 0.775 V + 22 dB ≝ 0.775×10^(22/20) (V) = 0.775×10^1.1 (V) ≈ 0.775×12.589 (V) ≈ 9.7565 V

Fireface UCX II + ARC USB > ADI-2 Pro FS R BE > Neumann KH 750 DSP + MA 1 > KH 120 A

15 (edited by rawac 2025-12-09 08:37:58)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

unpluggged is right and faster.

Power is measured in Watts: P [W] - named after James Watt.
Voltage is measured in Volts: U [V] - named after Alessandro Volta.
The connection is resistance in Ohms: R [Omega] - named after Georg Simon Ohm.
P = U² / R
Due to the voltage squared, double the voltage equals four times the power.
Therefore, the following applies to level L:
L = 10 lg ( P / P[0] ) = 20 lg ( U / U[0] )
In the other direction:
U = U[0] 10E( L / 20 )
i.e.
U = 0.775 V x 10E (22 dB / 20)
= 0.775 V x 10 E 1.1
= 0.775 V x 12.59...
= ~ 10 V
(Exactly 10V = 22.21... dBu, but decimal places are usually omitted in dB, which is precisely why we use decibel and not Bell after Alexander Graham Bell.)

Ralf
(ADI-2 Pro FS with ThinkPad Yoga L13, Dynaudio Focus 600 XD or Focal Clear — and a lot of Jazz)

16 (edited by KaiS 2025-12-09 08:57:23)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

To be exact, dBu relates to the Voltage that creates 1 mW into 600 Ohm.
That’s about 0.774596692 Volts, or round 0.775 V.


Decibel for linear physical quantities (like e.g. Voltage “U”), is calculated:
x dB = 20 * log10 (U1 / U2), where U2 can be a reference value.

Decibel for squared physical quantities (like e.g. Power “P”), is calculated:
x dB = 10 * log10 (P1 / P2), where P2 can be a reference value.
(Power is a squared physical quantity, as it’s calculation incorporates a squared physical base quantity: P = U² / R)


The reason for the dB calculation difference:
For a given level difference you can use the either Voltage or Power based dB calculation, and get the same result.

E.g. if you double the Voltage you get 4 times the Power, both calculate to +6.0206 dB.

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

unpluggged wrote:
narkewoody wrote:

I searched and found dBu should related to 0.775 V, so 22 dBu = 10E(22/10) * 0.775 = 10E2.2 * 0.775 = 122.8 V.  So what the 10 V means?

You searched in the wrong place. +22 dBu = 0.775 V + 22 dB ≝ 0.775×10^(22/20) (V) = 0.775×10^1.1 (V) ≈ 0.775×12.589 (V) ≈ 9.7565 V

So what the dBu compared is not volts but volts squared. Thanks! This is a great information.

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

rawac wrote:

unpluggged is right and faster.

Power is measured in Watts: P [W] - named after James Watt.
Voltage is measured in Volts: U [V] - named after Alessandro Volta.
The connection is resistance in Ohms: R [Omega] - named after Georg Simon Ohm.
P = U² / R
Due to the voltage squared, double the voltage equals four times the power.
Therefore, the following applies to level L:
L = 10 lg ( P / P[0] ) = 20 lg ( U / U[0] )
In the other direction:
U = U[0] 10E( L / 20 )
i.e.
U = 0.775 V x 10E (22 dB / 20)
= 0.775 V x 10 E 1.1
= 0.775 V x 12.59...
= ~ 10 V
(Exactly 10V = 22.21... dBu, but decimal places are usually omitted in dB, which is precisely why we use decibel and not Bell after Alexander Graham Bell.)

Thanks for the detailed explaination! Yest, I got it.

19 (edited by KaiS 2025-12-09 10:27:18)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

narkewoody wrote:

So what the dBu compared is not volts but volts squared. Thanks! This is a great information.

No, dBu is a voltage, albeit historically derived from a certain power.

For dBu calculations use:
x dB = 20 * log10 (U1 / U2)

20 (edited by narkewoody 2025-12-09 10:49:41)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

KaiS wrote:
narkewoody wrote:

So what the dBu compared is not volts but volts squared. Thanks! This is a great information.

No, dBu is a voltage, albeit historically derived from a certain power.

For dBu calculations use:
x dB = 20 * log10 (U1 / U2)

My understanding is like the following.   The standard definition of decible (dB) is dB = 10 * log(Value/reference) which gives a logrithm ratio of some value related to a reference value.  No one would just change the constant scaler 10 to 20 for no reason.  But when the value you are concerning is power and you indeed don't really want to use power, then you can use voltage and the assumption is that the impedence is a constant.  So you plugin the formula and get:  dB = 10 * log( (U^2/R) / (U_0^2/R) ) = 10 * log( (U/U_0)^2 ) = 2 * 10 * log( U/U_0 ) = 20 log( (U/U_0). In the previous case, U_0 is 0.775 V. In this sense, I think the dBu is not a dB for voltage, it's actually a dB for voltage squared (which is proportional to power), that's the reason why we need divide it by 20 instead of 10 to the the logirithm ratio.

21 (edited by ramses 2025-12-09 12:01:34)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

The Sengpiel webpages contain a lot of information (formula, calculators, ...).
https://sengpielaudio.com/calculator-db-volt.htm

BR Ramses - HDSPe MADI FX, M-1620 Pro D, 12Mic, UFX III, ADI-2 Pro FS R BE, Nuendo 14, Win10 IoT Ent

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

ramses wrote:

The Sengpiel webpages contain a lot of information (formula, calculators, ...).
https://sengpielaudio.com/calculator-db-volt.htm

And German speakers can read the original webpage: https://sengpielaudio.com/Rechner-db-volt.htm  wink

Ralf
(ADI-2 Pro FS with ThinkPad Yoga L13, Dynaudio Focus 600 XD or Focal Clear — and a lot of Jazz)

23 (edited by KaiS 2025-12-10 00:25:26)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

narkewoody wrote:
KaiS wrote:
narkewoody wrote:

So what the dBu compared is not volts but volts squared. Thanks! This is a great information.

No, dBu is a voltage, albeit historically derived from a certain power.

For dBu calculations use:
x dB = 20 * log10 (U1 / U2)

My understanding is like the following.   The standard definition of decible (dB) is dB = 10 * log(Value/reference) …
… I think the dBu is not a dB for voltage, it's actually a dB for voltage squared …

Simply, no.
dBu is a voltage, referenced to 0.775 V.
Nothing squared, not a power.
Use the formula above for dBu.

Impedance BTW is irrelevant for dBu calculations.


You might have mixed that with dBm, which is referenced to the power of 1mW into 600 Ohm, and for a long time even misused for voltage measurements.

To end this, dBu was introduced as pure voltage unit - “U” is the letter that designates a voltage.

24 (edited by rawac 2025-12-10 09:56:38)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

In German, this is called “Ein Streit um Kaisers Bart” (a dispute over the emperor's beard).  In literature, you will also find that the u stands for “unloaded.” Some also say that it stands for “unit” as in VU. This would be a topic for the Mythbusters.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel

The already mentioned Eberhard Sengpiel (born 1940, died 2014, German sound engineer, musician, lecturer at Berlin University, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eberhard_Sengpiel or https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eberhard_Sengpiel) mentions both: https://sengpielaudio.com/ElektrSpanndB … worten.pdf

The basic definition is much more often referred to as power. I don't think it's that important. The main thing is to understand the difference and use both formulas correctly. Before the power amplifier, it's more about voltage, and after, it's more about power. At the beginning, I was looking at the power in the case of "0 dB are 1 Bell = 1E1 = 10 = factor 10". Because the headphone output is after the power amplifier. I should have included the word "power" in my posting.

Ralf
(ADI-2 Pro FS with ThinkPad Yoga L13, Dynaudio Focus 600 XD or Focal Clear — and a lot of Jazz)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

I don‘t think that correction of the obviously wrong is pointless.

For a layman the whole level-, power-, voltage- and dB - thing is hard enough to understand.
Calculating with the wrong formula leads to obviously wrong results (like +22 dBu should be 122.8 V) and therefore to frustration.

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

The audio community does things a little different. It's a set of unique units and jargon.
I'm sure someone created dbu's to make things easier to manipulate. But it's only a factor of .775.
I find myself constantly grabbing my calculator to convert voltage and power levels from dbu.

27 (edited by KaiS 2025-12-10 21:48:37)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

ralphb wrote:

The audio community does things a little different. It's a set of unique units and jargon.
I'm sure someone created dbu's to make things easier to manipulate. But it's only a factor of .775.
I find myself constantly grabbing my calculator to convert voltage and power levels from dbu.

The value 0.775 V origins from very early telegraph and telephone lines (*1), became standard in 1940 in the US (the leading nation for strange measurement units, from an european view smile ).

Here’s a link to the AES paper from 1940 that seems to be the base for the decision:
https://www.aes.org/aeshc/pdf/chinn_a-new-svi.pdf


Standards die slow, the alternative value dBV (dB referenced to 1 Volt) could not replace it.
Millions of bucks have been wasted ever since in engineer’s working hours for the extra calculation of 0.775 to 1 Volt.


(*1) Telephone lines, made from a simple wire through the air, have an impedance of about 600 Ohm.
The sender and receiver at a long transmission line needs to match the impedance of the line, else energy is reflected at the link points, resulting in audible echoes.

Therefore communications engineers often calculate with this 600 Ohm.
Plus, they tend to calculate in terms of power, not voltage, albeit power isn’t as easy directly measured as voltage is:
Power is: voltage² / impedance x cosinus φ, (φ is the phase angle between AC voltage and current, not easy to measure then).

0 dBm is just 1 mW (1/1000th of a Watt) into 600 Ohm, and the voltage for this is the famous 0.775 V, designated dBu if the voltage, not the power level is meant.

28

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

rawac wrote:

This information differs from the block diagram in chapter 31.16 (IEM -22 dB). I suspect that the correct difference is 7+3 = 10 dB or 22+3 = 25 dB.

The block diagram is correct. The DAC output is +19 dBu (not labeled). Also a block diagram is a simplified version for a better understanding of the signal flow. It might not show the exact levels as they exist inside the unit.

Regards
Matthias Carstens
RME

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

MC wrote:

...

The block diagram is correct. The DAC output is +19 dBu (not labeled). Also a block diagram is a simplified version for a better understanding of the signal flow. It might not show the exact levels as they exist inside the unit.

That was the reason I used the wording "This information differs from the block diagram ...", neither "false" nor "incorrect".

I made a wrong calculating in https://forum.rme-audio.de/viewtopic.ph … 92#p245792 first, using the -22dB. Realized my error later, edited the calculation and wrote the addendum in case, someone wonders about the change.

Ralf
(ADI-2 Pro FS with ThinkPad Yoga L13, Dynaudio Focus 600 XD or Focal Clear — and a lot of Jazz)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

KaiS wrote:
ralphb wrote:

The audio community does things a little different. It's a set of unique units and jargon.
I'm sure someone created dbu's to make things easier to manipulate. But it's only a factor of .775.
I find myself constantly grabbing my calculator to convert voltage and power levels from dbu.

The value 0.775 V origins from very early telegraph and telephone lines (*1), became standard in 1940 in the US (the leading nation for strange measurement units, from an european view smile ).

Here’s a link to the AES paper from 1940 that seems to be the base for the decision:
https://www.aes.org/aeshc/pdf/chinn_a-new-svi.pdf


Standards die slow, the alternative value dBV (dB referenced to 1 Volt) could not replace it.
Millions of bucks have been wasted ever since in engineer’s working hours for the extra calculation of 0.775 to 1 Volt.


(*1) Telephone lines, made from a simple wire through the air, have an impedance of about 600 Ohm.
The sender and receiver at a long transmission line needs to match the impedance of the line, else energy is reflected at the link points, resulting in audible echoes.

Therefore communications engineers often calculate with this 600 Ohm.
Plus, they tend to calculate in terms of power, not voltage, albeit power isn’t as easy directly measured as voltage is:
Power is: voltage² / impedance x cosinus φ, (φ is the phase angle between AC voltage and current, not easy to measure then).

0 dBm is just 1 mW (1/1000th of a Watt) into 600 Ohm, and the voltage for this is the famous 0.775 V, designated dBu if the voltage, not the power level is meant.

Thanks KaiS. I was aware of the 1 mW into 600 ohms communications standard...but I never connected to Vu.

Interesting I.R.E. proceeding article also. I had to chuckle how they determined distortions based on average people's perceptions using equipment that generates lots of distortion based on today's standards. But It makes sense at the time there was a need to establish some kind of standard.

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

KaiS wrote:
narkewoody wrote:
KaiS wrote:

No, dBu is a voltage, albeit historically derived from a certain power.

For dBu calculations use:
x dB = 20 * log10 (U1 / U2)

My understanding is like the following.   The standard definition of decible (dB) is dB = 10 * log(Value/reference) …
… I think the dBu is not a dB for voltage, it's actually a dB for voltage squared …

Simply, no.
dBu is a voltage, referenced to 0.775 V.
Nothing squared, not a power.
Use the formula above for dBu.

Impedance BTW is irrelevant for dBu calculations.


You might have mixed that with dBm, which is referenced to the power of 1mW into 600 Ohm, and for a long time even misused for voltage measurements.

To end this, dBu was introduced as pure voltage unit - “U” is the letter that designates a voltage.

I has no any objection to that we should plugin volts instead of walts into the dBu calculation. Even if one think it's for power another think it is for voltage, the result of the calculation will be the same from the both guys.  What I suspected is that the strange coefficient 20.  Why it's not simply 10?  The other decibel formulas like dBm = 10 x log (p/1mv) and this dBu formula dBu = 20 log(v/0.775), which one was invented first? If it's really ture that the dBu formula was formed firstly, then I would think I was wrong in this point and will belive that people just by chance choosed 20 as the coefficient (actualy the unit of the logorithm scale). If it's not, I think it's obvious that what people indeed thought when forming the dBu formula is highly possible to be dBu = 10 log(u^2/0.775) -- they wanted to speak powers.

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

narkewoody wrote:
KaiS wrote:
narkewoody wrote:

My understanding is like the following.   The standard definition of decible (dB) is dB = 10 * log(Value/reference) …
… I think the dBu is not a dB for voltage, it's actually a dB for voltage squared …

Simply, no.
dBu is a voltage, referenced to 0.775 V.
Nothing squared, not a power.
Use the formula above for dBu.

Impedance BTW is irrelevant for dBu calculations.


You might have mixed that with dBm, which is referenced to the power of 1mW into 600 Ohm, and for a long time even misused for voltage measurements.

To end this, dBu was introduced as pure voltage unit - “U” is the letter that designates a voltage.

I has no any objection to that we should plugin volts instead of walts into the dBu calculation. Even if one think it's for power another think it is for voltage, the result of the calculation will be the same from the both guys.  What I suspected is that the strange coefficient 20.  Why it's not simply 10?  The other decibel formulas like dBm = 10 x log (p/1mv) and this dBu formula dBu = 20 log(v/0.775), which one was invented first? If it's really ture that the dBu formula was formed firstly, then I would think I was wrong in this point and will belive that people just by chance choosed 20 as the coefficient (actualy the unit of the logorithm scale). If it's not, I think it's obvious that what people indeed thought when forming the dBu formula is highly possible to be dBu = 10 log(u^2/0.775) -- they wanted to speak powers.

It's better to stop these speculative and misleading exercises. dBu is a unit of voltage, by its very definition.

Fireface UCX II + ARC USB > ADI-2 Pro FS R BE > Neumann KH 750 DSP + MA 1 > KH 120 A

33 (edited by KaiS 2025-12-12 11:54:23)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

narkewoody wrote:

What I suspected is that the strange coefficient 20.  Why it's not simply 10?  The other decibel formulas like dBm = 10 x log (p/1mv) and this dBu formula dBu = 20 log(v/0.775), …

This thread already has extended too much, but OK:

The factor 10 was first (deci-Bel), and the calculation was for power, the unit named dBm.
Power is a squared magnitude, as it’s calculated by P = U² / R, voltage goes in squared.

The factor 20 (2 * 10) is used for linear magnitudes like voltage.
Due to the nature of logarithm, doubling the log value is like squaring the original value.

This way, doubling the voltage gives you a reading of +6 dB, no matter if you look at the voltage or the resulting power (which is quadrupled).


At the time it was invented, power was hard to measure.
In fact you need to measure voltage and current at the same time and multiply one with the other, which isn’t an easy task in the analog domain across the audio band.
Such a meter costed several 1000 bucks then.

They just could easily measure voltage, and scaled their dB / voltage level meters to read the resulting power in dBm.
This type of meter was 5 bucks.

But - to measure voltage, but read power, the factor 20 instead of 10 is needed in the voltage dB calculation.

34 (edited by rawac 2025-12-12 11:17:49)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

Sometimes it helps to be old enough to have had to work with a slide rule. It's the same formula, just phrased differently. I try an other way to explain.

It's about the relationship between linear and all logarithmic scales.

First, the multiplication x · y
log(x · y) = log(x) + log(y)
A multiplication on the linear scale becomes an addition on the logarithmic scale.

Then the exponential function xEy (or x^y)
log( xEy ) = y · log(x)
An exponential function on the linear scale becomes a multiplication on the logarithmic scale.

So if
dB = 10 ln (P/P[0]) = 10 ln (V² · R/V[0]² · R)
we can cancel out R and combine the identical exponents
dB = 10 ln (V/V[0])²
Then bring the exponent to the front
dB = 10 · 2  ln (V/V[0]) = 20 ln (V/V[0])

If you take physics very seriously, the unit Volt is also eliminated from the fraction, as is the resistance in Ohms, and dBu is dimensionless.
9.756671941 V = 0.775 V · 10E(22 dBu / 20)
Not only must the values on the left and right sides of the equal sign be equal, but so must the units. If the factor 10E(22 dBu / 20) were Volts, the result on the left would be V² = V · V.

For non-German readers: Dezibel is the German writing for decibel and we use U instead of V in physic formulas.

Ralf
(ADI-2 Pro FS with ThinkPad Yoga L13, Dynaudio Focus 600 XD or Focal Clear — and a lot of Jazz)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

Here is a convenient tool:
https://www.analog.com/en/resources/int … nvert.html

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

@rawac I know you wanted to say that dB{x} is intended to tell ratios, which is dimentionless. That is true and is the key to the understanding.

To make it very clear of my point:

u1 = 5   dBu = 0.775V * 10^(5/20) = 1.3782 V
u2 = 10 dBu = 0.775V * 10^(10/20) = 2.4508 V

u2 is 5 dBu higher than u1.

Assumping a same impedency, u1 and u2 produce powers p1 and p2.  What's the decibel power difference of p1 and p2?

p2 is higher than p1 with 10 * log(u2^2 / u1^2) = 10 * log(2.4508^2 / 1.3783^2) = 5 dBm.

In this way, the logorithm difference of powers and voltages matches perfectly.  And, the real point is, per my assumption, otherwise I cannot think of another cause for this math manipulation of using 20 instead of 10, that when a people see from some specs that there is 5 dBu increasing in voltage he can immediately conclude that there is 5 dBm increasing in power!  -- That's all for power actually, and I fully agree with and leant from KaiS that the reason behind this is simply because voltage are much easier to be measured than powers.

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

narkewoody wrote:

...
p2 is higher than p1 with 10 * log(u2^2 / u1^2) = 10 * log(2.4508^2 / 1.3783^2) = 5 dBm.

dBm is Power, but with fixed Power P[0] = 0,001 W = 1 mW = (0,775 V)² / 600 Ohm  in the denominator of the fraction. With "... = +5dB" everything would be right. wink

Ralf
(ADI-2 Pro FS with ThinkPad Yoga L13, Dynaudio Focus 600 XD or Focal Clear — and a lot of Jazz)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

rawac wrote:
narkewoody wrote:

...
p2 is higher than p1 with 10 * log(u2^2 / u1^2) = 10 * log(2.4508^2 / 1.3783^2) = 5 dBm.

dBm is Power, but with fixed Power P[0] = 0,001 W = 1 mW = (0,775 V)² / 600 Ohm  in the denominator of the fraction. With "... = +5dB" everything would be right. wink

Exactly, the 600 Ohm is a good insight!

39 (edited by KaiS 2025-12-13 09:32:29)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

narkewoody wrote:

otherwise I cannot think of another cause for this math manipulation of using 20 instead of 10,.

In fact, with audio, the 20-factor is used 99.9% of the time, e.g. in ADI-2’s scales and settings all over.

You can quasi forget about the 10-factor, you will hardly find it anywhere.


Some important nomenclature, to use dB correctly:

• dB (straight) is relative, like for all kinds of gain settings:
Volume, EQ and amp gain, level damping (in dB –x), etc.

• dBu and dBV are absolute voltage units (0.775 V and 1 V) expressed in dB scale.

• dBm is an absolute power unit (1mW @ 600 Ohm) in dB scale.
It’s very special for early audio and telecommunication, not much used any more and for a long time misused instead of the correct dBu.
You will hardly find it with current audio these days.


EDIT: There are two more:

• dBFS, used with digital, relativ to digital FullScale.

• dBr, (r = relative), used e.g. in ADI-2 when Auto Reference Level is active.

40 (edited by narkewoody 2025-12-13 09:13:11)

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

KaiS wrote:
narkewoody wrote:

otherwise I cannot think of another cause for this math manipulation of using 20 instead of 10,.

In fact, with audio, the 20-factor is used 99.9% of the time, e.g. in ADI-2’s scales and settings all over.

You can quasi forget about the 10-factor, you will hardly find it anywhere.


Some important nomenclature, to use dB correctly:

• dB (straight) is relative, like for all kinds of gain settings:
Volume, EQ and amp gain, level damping (in dB –x), etc.

• dBu and dBV are absolute voltage units (0.775 V and 1 V) expressed in dB scale.

• dBm is an absolute power unit (1mW @ 600 Ohm) in dB scale.
It’s very special for early audio and telecommunication, not much used any more and for a long time misused instead of the correct dBu.
You will hardly find it with current audio these days.

Yes, it’s my mistake by saying dBu are ratios. You are absolutely correct in they are volts. I may be just wanting to emphasise that those kinds of quantity are measured based on ratios.

But for the other part. No. I learned from school decibels are always 10xlog things; I also checked internet that this is true. My original intention of posting the question was driven by that I didn’t believe that in foundation math units, one thing could have different
definitions.  20x is not the first hand definition and there is only one definition which is 10x. 20x is just the same definition applying on squared values like V^2; and the squares move down and timed to the 10 becoming 20 - that’s a result of the calculation based on the single definition and the purpose of using V^2 is to make sure the  dBu difference will equal to the corresponding dBm difference. Just because of the used quantities are indeed V^2’s, so what the resulting dBu compared are essentially powers - a single dBu has two rules, indicating a volts quantity and telling you the power difference at the same time.

I just found the following WiKi which states exactly what I understood including the reasoning for how the 20 came from:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decibel

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

any units divided by same units equals no units

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

narkewoody wrote:

…Just because of the used quantities are indeed V^2’s, so what the resulting dBu compared are essentially powers - a single dBu has two rules, indicating a volts quantity and telling you the power difference at the same time.

As an engineer I might see things more from the practical side:

10 Volt is 10 times 1 Volt, no matter of load impedance, which actually might even vary due to nonlinear resistance (think light bulb or semiconductor as load).

No defined load impedance = no defined power..

20 dBV is another expression for 10 V , so 0 dBV is 1 Volt, still no power in sight – so why bother?!

Same for dBu (0.775 V) - no power relationship included.



BTW: schoolbook often contain outdated or over-complicated information, even more so if school was multiple decades ago.

I remember (and still have) some of my old physics and electronics engineering formula and table books - most of which don’t contain much useful information from today’s point of view.
The best formula collections I have are the ones I created by myself.

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

Exactly. I don't even remember seeing dBu referenced when I was studying EE.

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

KaiS wrote:
narkewoody wrote:

…Just because of the used quantities are indeed V^2’s, so what the resulting dBu compared are essentially powers - a single dBu has two rules, indicating a volts quantity and telling you the power difference at the same time.

As an engineer I might see things more from the practical side:

10 Volt is 10 times 1 Volt, no matter of load impedance, which actually might even vary due to nonlinear resistance (think light bulb or semiconductor as load).

No defined load impedance = no defined power..

20 dBV is another expression for 10 V , so 0 dBV is 1 Volt, still no power in sight – so why bother?!

Same for dBu (0.775 V) - no power relationship included.



BTW: schoolbook often contain outdated or over-complicated information, even more so if school was multiple decades ago.

I remember (and still have) some of my old physics and electronics engineering formula and table books - most of which don’t contain much useful information from today’s point of view.
The best formula collections I have are the ones I created by myself.


Yes, I agree that practically we should focus on voltages here, seeing the V^2 behind is more a theoretical view.

Re: Can ADI-2 DAC FS driver two set of headphones at the same time?

For dBu, if someone says db relative to .775volts into 8 ohms, I can calculate the exact power and voltage.