Re: Blue Screen Target_MDL_Too_Small with FF800

OK now running with the Legacy FW driver. I notice when I rebooted everything (PC and RME) the Buffer Size is now set to 256 in my FF settings. It had been 512 before I rebooted. Will let you know how my stability is in a few days.

52 (edited by Timur Born 2012-06-15 10:29:30)

Re: Blue Screen Target_MDL_Too_Small with FF800

Stateless wrote:

I'm using driver version 3.067, dated January 17, 2012.

Then I suggest you try driver version 2.9992 and see if that works better for your XP setup and please post your experiences here.

I want to make sure I understand your policies: if I send in my unit for testing, and you do not successfully reproduce the error, then I must pay for the analysis even though my unit is still under warranty?

Best to ask RME Support about that, but that's a policy used by most companies. If you send in a properly working device and have a company invest time and effort into analyzing it although the culprit lies in your own computer system then they are free to charge you for the extra work.

For all companies warranty means that a company has to do repairs/exchange of failed goods of free of charge if the cause of the failure was already present when the item was purchased (aka: it didn't hold as long as the warranty guarantees it would or was already broken on arrival). Some may not charge you for sending in a working device, but that's not a given, specialists do cost money.

Just because your specific computer system might not work stable while thousands of others do does not mean they have to analyze your Fireface for free only to tell you it's not the Fireface causing the trouble. So either better try to rule out as many variables as possible before sending it in. Or just send it in, hope that the Fireface is broken and will be repaired for free and pay $35 (or whatever it costs in your country) for being wiser afterwards. In case of the latter maybe invest in an audio/IT professional to setup your computer for high performance audio operation.

Re: Blue Screen Target_MDL_Too_Small with FF800

Timur Born wrote:
Stateless wrote:

I'm using driver version 3.067, dated January 17, 2012.

Then I suggest you try driver version 2.9992 and see if that works better for your XP setup and please post your experiences here.

I want to make sure I understand your policies: if I send in my unit for testing, and you do not successfully reproduce the error, then I must pay for the analysis even though my unit is still under warranty?

Best to ask RME Support about that, but that's a policy used by most companies. If you send in a properly working device and have a company invest time and effort into analyzing it although the culprit lies in your own computer system then they are free to charge you for the extra work.

For all companies warranty means that a company has to do repairs/exchange of failed goods of free of charge if the cause of the failure was already present when the item was purchased (aka: it didn't hold as long as the warranty guarantees it would or was already broken on arrival). Some may not charge you for sending in a working device, but that's not a given, specialists do cost money.

Just because your specific computer system might not work stable while thousands of others do does not mean they have to analyze your Fireface for free only to tell you it's not the Fireface causing the trouble. So either better try to rule out as many variables as possible before sending it in. Or just send it in, hope that the Fireface is broken and will be repaired for free and pay $35 (or whatever it costs in your country) for being wiser afterwards. In case of the latter maybe invest in an audio/IT professional to setup your computer for high performance audio operation.

My concern isn't that I'm going to send in a working UFX; rather, I'm concerned about whether or nor RME's test suite will reproduce the error.  Specifically, this BSOD happens anywhere from once every two days to twice a day, under working conditions (i.e. the error does not happen in a static state).  Adding to my concern is RME's lack of confidence in reproducing these BSODs (as they have stated in this thread); basically, they don't expect to be able to reproduce the error.

On the other hand, I am able to reproduce this error on two computers here, using multiple FW interfaces, cables, and ports.  However, the error (as always) is intermittent; it won't happen immediately, it will still take (on average) a day of use to produce it.  I could easily just turn on the computer, show that the UFX appears to work properly, and then declare it functional.

I imagine a scenario where I send in the unit, a tech runs through a set of tests, verifies that the tests completed successfully, and sends me a bill.  This does not serve either of us very well; they never find the cause of the problem, and I never get the fix.

Of course, I would expect a better outcome if they were able to  reproduce the error, and the cause were tracked down.  Since RME has low confidence in their ability to reproduce the error, I'd be willing to send in my computer with the UFX so that they could witness the BSOD and track down its cause; as I've already shown, the driver that is identified by the operating system as executing the faulty instruction is RME's.  If they had both my computer and the UFX in question, they could analyze the problem.

My apologies for asking you questions that are better answered by RME (if at any time RME wants to jump in and participate in this thread, it would be most appreciated).  It's not that I expected you to speak for them, it's that I expected them to respond themselves; this forum is the only form of customer support that I know of (unless I am missing something?).  For whatever reason, they have been noticeably silent.  Should I be emailing them instead of using this forum?

Regarding driver version 2.9992: the readme specifies that this driver is for the FF 400 / 800; the UFX is not specified.

Re: Blue Screen Target_MDL_Too_Small with FF800

Have you ever tried the UFX with the USB connection and driver?


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: Blue Screen Target_MDL_Too_Small with FF800

RME Support wrote:

Have you ever tried the UFX with the USB connection and driver?


Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Yes.  I've never used the UFX via USB with low buffer settings for any significant amount of time because of audio drop-outs.  These drop outs only happen when connected via USB, and only then with low buffer settings, so I just stuck with FW.

Re: Blue Screen Target_MDL_Too_Small with FF800

If the performance is significantly better with the UFX connected to FW than with USB, I would take that as another sign that not everything is entirely the way it should be with this PC... Ideally and if at all, USB might have a slight edge, but there should be no significant difference the other way round.
Maybe you could test whether BSODs can be reproduced that way, too.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: Blue Screen Target_MDL_Too_Small with FF800

RME Support wrote:

If the performance is significantly better with the UFX connected to FW than with USB, I would take that as another sign that not everything is entirely the way it should be with this PC... Ideally and if at all, USB might have a slight edge, but there should be no significant difference the other way round.
Maybe you could test whether BSODs can be reproduced that way, too.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

I'll test it to give you an answer.

58 (edited by Timur Born 2012-06-19 12:20:57)

Re: Blue Screen Target_MDL_Too_Small with FF800

You really need to get a better (dedicated) music computer or have an expert look at it. The chances are very very slim that your Fireface is faulty. There may be some problem within the driver that others don't experience, but given the good results of other people it's still very likely that other components are causing the BSOD and the RME driver is rather suffering the consequences.

Here is my offer: Next weekend I will carry the UFX to a customer who is still running Windows XP on some computers (at least one with a TI based FW400 port). I will run the UFX via Firewire non-stop from Friday night to Sunday to see if the system runs stable. Since I cannot be at the computer during that time I will just have to run it in a loop, so any suggestion about what you want me to test-run is welcome.

EDIT: Posted some stupid driver suggestion. wink

Re: Blue Screen Target_MDL_Too_Small with FF800

Timur, despite the thread title, we are now dealing with a UFX.. ;-)

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: Blue Screen Target_MDL_Too_Small with FF800

Fixed. :-°

61 (edited by Stateless 2012-06-25 12:11:43)

Re: Blue Screen Target_MDL_Too_Small with FF800

Stateless wrote:
RME Support wrote:

If the performance is significantly better with the UFX connected to FW than with USB, I would take that as another sign that not everything is entirely the way it should be with this PC... Ideally and if at all, USB might have a slight edge, but there should be no significant difference the other way round.
Maybe you could test whether BSODs can be reproduced that way, too.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

I'll test it to give you an answer.

After 1 week of testing via USB, the unit did not BSOD.  Of course, I could not lower the buffer settings all the way down to 64 samples, which is the only setting that creates BSODs via FW.

(@Timur) Thanks for all of your suggestions; I appreciate the effort you've made to help me.  At this point, I need to get RME's attention; I can't afford to buy a computer without knowing if the unit itself is at fault.

(@RME tech support) I'm at the end of my rope here, guys.  It's been 2 months.  It's not as though I've been impatient or discourteous here in the forum.  I've followed all suggestions: I've tested the UFX with another cable, another FW port, another FW chipset, and even another computer, and the results are always consistent: the unit will BSOD after 1-2 days of usage, and the driver executing the bad instruction is identified as fireface.sys, the RME driver.  My unit is under warranty.  You've already told me you expect to find nothing if you look at the unit, and thus I should expect to throw my money away if I chose to send it to you.  Is this all that you are willing to do to help me?

I must apologize if my expectations are out of line, but what I was expecting was to be able to send in the unit for analysis without having to pay.  After all, the unit is under warranty, and there is little evidence to suggest that the unit itself is not at fault.

Re: Blue Screen Target_MDL_Too_Small with FF800

The fact that fireface.sys is mentioned does not prove it is the actual cause, only that it is somehow involved in the crash. Besides, this file is part of the driver, not of the hardware... It seems unlikely to me that this is in any way related to the hardware of the UFX. If, then it would more likely to have something to do with the h the computer's FW implementation not coping with operation at lowest latencies...


As with many other such problems, reproducibility is the key issue. And as you will see in a neighbouring thread, another mysterious issue that seemed to be related to an RME device seems to boil down to an issue with USB on that computer.


Therefore, we may simply not be able to provide you with a simple and quick solution here. What we can do is help find the cause.

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

63 (edited by Stateless 2012-06-26 08:37:53)

Re: Blue Screen Target_MDL_Too_Small with FF800

I agree that the fact that fireface.sys is the driver that executed the bad insruction does not mean that your driver has a bug, however it does mean that it is the driver that executed the bad instruction.  Of course, this could be due to many different reasons, some of which are under RME's control, and others that are not.

In other words, this BSOD could be because of an RME driver bug, a hardware failure, or a problem elsewhere in the system; all three scenarios can (and do) produce BSODs of this type.  Given that I have reproduced the problem on two different computers seems to indicate that the machine itself is not likely the cuprit.

So far, the only suggestion that remains is that I buy a new computer; all other suggestions have failed to correct the problem.  Spending that much money without actually knowing where the problem lies seems a bit reckless to me, especially considering the fact that the problem did occur on more than one computer.

One way that I could eliminate the RME hardware from this scenario would be to buy another UFX, test with it, and then return it.  I would hate to do this to a vendor, but it seems that I am running out of options.  Any suggestions remaining?

Re: Blue Screen Target_MDL_Too_Small with FF800

One more solution would be to get your computer running properly with via the USB connection. Did you run the DPC Latency Checker yet? Please post screenshots for both when no audio software is running the the UFX is disconnected and while audio software is running via an USB connection to the UFX.

Re: Blue Screen Target_MDL_Too_Small with FF800

Timur Born wrote:

One more solution would be to get your computer running properly with via the USB connection. Did you run the DPC Latency Checker yet? Please post screenshots for both when no audio software is running the the UFX is disconnected and while audio software is running via an USB connection to the UFX.

Below are the screenshots.  No UFX attached:

http://i47.tinypic.com/knic9.png

UFX attached, running straight mic->headphones at 64 sample buffers in Reaper:

http://i49.tinypic.com/1h4eq0.png

A side note: when I installed the USB driver, I got another BSOD on shutdown: driver_power_state_failure.  I checked that my firmware was up to date; it was, with the exception of the DSP firmware (it was set to 1.48).  I updated the firmware and restarted.  Then I took the screen shots.

As before, 64 sample buffers works while connected via USB, but there is consistent crackling.  Thoughts?

Re: Blue Screen Target_MDL_Too_Small with FF800

DPC latencies look good on those screenshots. How do 128 samples work in comparison to 64 samples?

Try disabling all unneeded USB devices (especially card-readers and Bluetooth, maybe even Touchpad if on a laptop) and any CD/DVD drive via Device Manager, also try disabling all network interfaces (both WLAN and LAN).

Which power-profile are you using at the moment? "Always On", "Desktop" or anything else?

Is your harddrive run via IDE or via AHCI?

Re: Blue Screen Target_MDL_Too_Small with FF800

Timur Born wrote:

DPC latencies look good on those screenshots. How do 128 samples work in comparison to 64 samples?

Try disabling all unneeded USB devices (especially card-readers and Bluetooth, maybe even Touchpad if on a laptop) and any CD/DVD drive via Device Manager, also try disabling all network interfaces (both WLAN and LAN).

Which power-profile are you using at the moment? "Always On", "Desktop" or anything else?

Is your harddrive run via IDE or via AHCI?

Hard drive is IDE.

All USB devices were disabled (went as far as disabling the usb hub that the smart card reader was connected to).  WLAN and LAN devices were disabled as well.

I had stripped the system down pretty bare (followed XP tweaking guide here: http://www.tweakhound.com/xp/xptweaks/s … aks1.htm), but I still had the DVD drive enabled, so I disabled it this time around, and repeated the test.  No change.

There is no crackling when the sample buffers are set to 128 samples.  Here is the DPC screenshot for 128; it is comparable to 64 samples:

http://i48.tinypic.com/2j0gysm.png

Re: Blue Screen Target_MDL_Too_Small with FF800

RME: Do you have anything to add, or are we done here?

Re: Blue Screen Target_MDL_Too_Small with FF800

If I can find time I can carry my UFX to a customers Windows XP desktop machine that offers both FW and USB. Once I did that I can report back with how it performed there. 128 samples might be what you have to settle on with your machine.

Re: Blue Screen Target_MDL_Too_Small with FF800

Update:  Problem has been solved.

Given how confident RME was that they would not be able to reproduce the BSOD I was experiencing, and also given that they told me I would be charged $35 dollars if they could not reproduce it (in addition to the cost of sending the unit in), I decided against sending my unit in to RME.

Instead, I bought another unit.  I figured that if the same BSOD occurred with the new unit, then I'd return it, and just learn to live with the occasional BSOD.  However, if the BSOD did not occur, I'd return my old unit instead.

The new unit did not have any problems.

Thus, I returned my old unit as defective, and have not thought about this issue in quite some time now.

I wanted to let other users know how I remedied my situation in case they find themselves facing similar obstacles.  It's a pitty that this is how the problem was solved...  Given my experience so far, I'm reasonably sure that my complaint will fall on deaf ears, but it's worth stating so that others may learn from my hardship.  Plainly stated: if your RME product is not working correctly, and you are not getting any help from RME to solve the problem, then just return it.  Or, as I did, "exchange" it...

Re: Blue Screen Target_MDL_Too_Small with FF800

Don't hesitate to tell us whether that "new unit" is also a FF800 or something else...

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

Re: Blue Screen Target_MDL_Too_Small with FF800

RME Support wrote:

Don't hesitate to tell us whether that "new unit" is also a FF800 or something else...

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME

The new unit was an identical model, i.e. a UFX; otherwise, I imagine I'd have a hard time returning the old unit in its place...

Re: Blue Screen Target_MDL_Too_Small with FF800

Ok - so for one, it seems to have been an individual issue with this particular device after all... That would explain why we've been unable to come up with a quick solution.
As for returning one device in place of another, I'm sure you discussed this with your retailer. cool

Anyhow, thanks for the feedback.

Regards
Danie Fuchs
RME

Regards
Daniel Fuchs
RME