Topic: Which for a DAW: more processing power or lower system latency?

I'm looking at upgrading my i7 920 and have come across an interesting dilemma.  I'm considering the 3930k or the 3770k.  Obviously, the 3930k has more processing power, but the 3770k has shown remarkably low system latency (see the last plot on this page: http://www.anandtech.com/show/5793/inte … and-msi/15 ).  I'm using a Fireface 800, by the way.

The question I have is this: will that remarkably low system latency translate into better ASIO performance?  If so, DAW performance might be better with the 3770k than the 3930k even though the 3930k has more processing power.

In essence, I'm not sure how processing power and basic system latency determine overall system performance for a DAW.  Just because you have raw processing power doesn't necessarily mean it will be best for a real-time application that requires buffer transfers into/out of the sound card.  Such an application (as in a DAW) might actually favor the lower-latency system.

Thanks,

rgames

Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com

2 (edited by Masaaki 2012-10-12 16:08:05)

Re: Which for a DAW: more processing power or lower system latency?

I wasn't too much impressed about the DPC latency comparison in the link you provided. There seems something else is going on because DPC latency figure is not truely CPU dependent. It's rather dependent on the motherboard's chipset, drivers (for peripherals and GPUs), and some OS tasks going on. In fact, in that test, none of them used the same board with different CPU (or the same CPU on different boards). So the tester is comparing apples and oranges.

Additionally, my i7 950 with X58 board gives me 40-50 microseconds, and AMD Phenom II with GA880 board gives me even better 35-40 microseconds DPC figures, with no spikes, flat for several hours. These CPUs are a couple of generations old, and much slower than these 3770K or 3930K processors, yet achieve lower DPC latency than the numbers in the test. It's all about how to tweak the BIOS and OS tasks.

Probably the tester in the link didn't spend time to tweak the system, and that's what I guess.
In terms of DPC latency, I suggest to research more around the motherboard/BIOS than the choice of CPU itself. In that sense, you can choose either CPU, they are very powerful/fast CPUs.

Re: Which for a DAW: more processing power or lower system latency?

I agree, the numbers, by themselves, are not particularly remarkable - my i7 920 also is down in the 50 - 60 us range.  However, that linked info should provide a baseline.  If they're all un-tweaked, then after you tweak them, is it possible that the relative differences will remain?

More importantly, will that translate into better ASIO performance?

Further, would that improved ASIO performance offset the benefit of more cores in the 3930k?  I'm still not sure how to trade processor power vs. ASIO efficiency.

Thanks,

rgames

Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com

Re: Which for a DAW: more processing power or lower system latency?

I don't believe the difference between these two processor will be reflected in the baseline DPC latency figures, because DPC latency by itself is dependent on how the task is prioritized.

In my hands ASIO performance and CPU performance is a separate issue. More important factor is how ASIO drivers is written for a given interface.

Re: Which for a DAW: more processing power or lower system latency?

Here's an example of what I'm trying to figure out:

I run my setup at 128 samples (full orchestral template w/ VE Pro on two slave machines, about 200 MIDI tracks and 175 audio returns, 6 IR-1 reverbs, bunch of EQ's).  On my i7 920, my processor floats around 15% - 20% and I can run that setup with no pops/clicks.

When I insert a PSP linear phase EQ or Waves L3-16, I get a huge number of pops and clicks, so I have to move my buffer to 512 or 1024 to get rid of them.  However, I don't see any change in CPU usage - it's still 15% - 20%.

So that says to me that the processor is not the bottleneck - it has more to do with the ASIO efficiency.  So if the lower-latency system can give better ASIO efficiency, then it might run heavy plug-ins at lower latency as compared to a system with a more powerful processor.

rgames

Richard G. Ames
Composer - Arranger - Producer
www.rgamesmusic.com

6 (edited by bonis 2012-10-12 21:09:38)

Re: Which for a DAW: more processing power or lower system latency?

[center]MY DAW AND MY FF800 MOBO IS GA-Z68X-UD3H-B3 GIGABYTE[/center]
[img align=c]http://www.xstreme.it/ltn1.jpg[/img]

www.bonisaudio.com

Re: Which for a DAW: more processing power or lower system latency?

rgames wrote:

Here's an example of what I'm trying to figure out:

I run my setup at 128 samples (full orchestral template w/ VE Pro on two slave machines, about 200 MIDI tracks and 175 audio returns, 6 IR-1 reverbs, bunch of EQ's).  On my i7 920, my processor floats around 15% - 20% and I can run that setup with no pops/clicks.

When I insert a PSP linear phase EQ or Waves L3-16, I get a huge number of pops and clicks, so I have to move my buffer to 512 or 1024 to get rid of them.  However, I don't see any change in CPU usage - it's still 15% - 20%.

So that says to me that the processor is not the bottleneck - it has more to do with the ASIO efficiency.  So if the lower-latency system can give better ASIO efficiency, then it might run heavy plug-ins at lower latency as compared to a system with a more powerful processor.

rgames

Understood your work load, but do you see DPC latency spike when you have those linear phase EQ and L3s?

8 (edited by Timur Born 2012-10-13 10:18:45)

Re: Which for a DAW: more processing power or lower system latency?

DPC Latencies are CPU dependent in that CPU power-saving states affect them and in that each CPU core can serve one interrupt call on its own.

The former means that BIOS power settings, Windows power-profile settings and especially overall CPU load affect DPC readings by DPC Latency Checker. You often can get lower readings by permanently loading the CPU via low priority load (Prime95). And a weaker CPU may run less in power-saving CPU states when faced with the same load compared to a stronger CPU. So DPC readings may be well off, while the stronger CPU usually still handles the load better.

The latter means that the more cores are free when DPC Latency Checker issues a DPC to the OS the quicker the CPU can answer the corresponding interrupt request by the OS.

Personally I do not worry about anything around 100 - 150 us, and if I want I can lower my readings towards 30 us or so. DPC Latency Checker is a tool for indicating possible culprits, nothing more and nothing less.

To make things more complicated, each process that issues DPCs may run at a different priority. And while DPCs all share the same priority (higher than realtime priority 31) the corresponding processes/threads may get less CPU time to even issues a DPC before any high priority audio thread issues its next DPC first (higher priority thread = more CPU time to do stuff like issuing DPCs).

Just to mention it: OS X doesn't work with DPCs (which in essence issue interrupt calls more in bulk), but applications can still suffer from the same CPU power-saving culprits. And while it always sounds as if the CPU is doing all the power-saving work, in reality it's the OS handling all the power-states, core parking and clock-rates via its power-schemes. Windows allows full control over these things once you mess with some Registry entries and then create your own power-profiles.

A CPU core in deep sleep state needs time to wake up before it can handle an interrupt request. Turning off those states completely isn't a realistic option, though, because that will run your CPU hot like an oven and may even force it to downclock in order to get rid of the heat. Not to mention fan noise and power consumption. Instead the better way is to change the power-profile (and some CPU registers) to a less aggressive power-saving methods, like waking CPU cores at lower load already, disabling only certain power-states (C1E) via BIOS/third party software and trying around with different Core Parking settings.

While we are at it: Core Parking again is not so much a CPU feature, but an OS function. What happens is that the OS shifts CPU/core affinity of threads to single CPU cores in order to keep other cores free. Since these other cores have nothing to do then they are allowed to enter deep sleep states. It effectively turns your 8 core CPU into a 4 core CPU in order to save power. Those remaining 4 cores have to work harder, of course, which is when Turbo Boost increases the clock-rate.

Re: Which for a DAW: more processing power or lower system latency?

Simple answer to you question, more processing power. But most important is a motherboard known to work for audio.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632

Re: Which for a DAW: more processing power or lower system latency?

I guess the OP's question is, does he get better performance of ASIO buffer settings by upgrading from i7 920 to a newer CPU such as Sandy 2700K, even his CPU usage is 15-20%?

Re: Which for a DAW: more processing power or lower system latency?

Then no I guess, I think his issue is with the specific plugins, both have a tremendous internal latency, which causes issues with the lower latency of the asio buffer.

Vincent, Amsterdam
https://soundcloud.com/thesecretworld
BFpro fs, 2X HDSP9652 ADI-8AE, 2X HDSP9632